Virgin landing gear incident LGW!
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Originally Posted by Cubs2jets
I noticed that the leading edge devices between the engines and between the engines and fuselage retracted at touchdown (spoiler deployment?). Is this a "normal" event or something indicative of the issue they may have been dealing with?
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With regard to the suggestion of using Brize Norton. If many of the RAF's eggs are indeed in that basket, they might be a little reluctant to volunteer to have THEIR runway blocked for an indefinite period.
I noted the radio exchange immediatly after touchdown where pilot/copilot asked the tower if they could see smoke or fire and the reply from the tower was they could not see clearly due to sun glare and advised pilot to speak directly to the fire service on a different frequency as they were on scene.
But the video recording seemed to portray a running commentry from fire service as well as comms from ATC.
Could someone clarify if transmissions regarding "smoking port side" came from fire service and if so what frequency?
Did pilot hear this commentry?
As a general point in such scenarios, would it not be prudent to switch to fire service frequency on touchdown, because as has been noted in recent landing mishaps, maintaining adequate and timely situational awareness of whats occuring behind the cockpit in such emergencies is aided by having a set of trusted eyes outside with a good view of the underside of the aircraft.
But the video recording seemed to portray a running commentry from fire service as well as comms from ATC.
Could someone clarify if transmissions regarding "smoking port side" came from fire service and if so what frequency?
Did pilot hear this commentry?
As a general point in such scenarios, would it not be prudent to switch to fire service frequency on touchdown, because as has been noted in recent landing mishaps, maintaining adequate and timely situational awareness of whats occuring behind the cockpit in such emergencies is aided by having a set of trusted eyes outside with a good view of the underside of the aircraft.
Last edited by mickjoebill; 30th Dec 2014 at 01:54.
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That's a really interesting point about switching to emergency services frequency upon landing.
Other than being high up, after you're committed to the landing, does Tower provide any value. Emergency Services may be in the best position to help you with a critical decision like should you evacuate, by letting you know about fires etc.
Also couldn't you just allow emergency services to communicate on the Tower frequency at that point, rather than require a busy cockpit to switch frequencies.
Other than being high up, after you're committed to the landing, does Tower provide any value. Emergency Services may be in the best position to help you with a critical decision like should you evacuate, by letting you know about fires etc.
Also couldn't you just allow emergency services to communicate on the Tower frequency at that point, rather than require a busy cockpit to switch frequencies.
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Originally Posted by SMOC
3. Firm due to no R/H outboard elevator leaving approx 3/4 pitch authority. Bounce due to speed brake not armed as per the QRH due to no
@ LLuCCiFer you little devil (and Nepone)...
Why are you so negative?
So the PF might have misjudged or mistimed his flare and that could be because of several factors which include a small downdraft while in the flare or any other weather related condition.
Then there is the possibility invoked by some here that HYD 4 system was out of service and that left the aircraft with limited elevator authority, no auto deploy of the spoilers and indeed not even full spoiler deployment (only two panels came up) and no auto brakes. No amount of simulator practice can prepare you 100% for these conditions especially on a flare. Heck I have been a passenger on my flights where the PF smacked it on the runway with a perfectly working aircraft... It just happens from time to time.
I don't fly the 747 but on my aircraft just landing without the auto brakes selected, the aircraft wants to continue to fly upon touch down instead of transferring all its weight to the main landing gear and this even if the spoilers auto deploy.
So I think you can cut the PF this aircraft some slack... In the end they landed an aircraft with a malfunction, kept it down the centre line of the runway, didn't seem to break anything else and all were safe... To me that's a perfect ending!
So the PF might have misjudged or mistimed his flare and that could be because of several factors which include a small downdraft while in the flare or any other weather related condition.
Then there is the possibility invoked by some here that HYD 4 system was out of service and that left the aircraft with limited elevator authority, no auto deploy of the spoilers and indeed not even full spoiler deployment (only two panels came up) and no auto brakes. No amount of simulator practice can prepare you 100% for these conditions especially on a flare. Heck I have been a passenger on my flights where the PF smacked it on the runway with a perfectly working aircraft... It just happens from time to time.
I don't fly the 747 but on my aircraft just landing without the auto brakes selected, the aircraft wants to continue to fly upon touch down instead of transferring all its weight to the main landing gear and this even if the spoilers auto deploy.
So I think you can cut the PF this aircraft some slack... In the end they landed an aircraft with a malfunction, kept it down the centre line of the runway, didn't seem to break anything else and all were safe... To me that's a perfect ending!
Last edited by Jet Jockey A4; 30th Dec 2014 at 01:00.
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Hero
with all the respect i would celebrate the Boeing Designers before the pilot (baoucing on 3 legs instead of four ) the Hero is the B 747 design that prevented the plane from tilting on the # 4 engine!
only one thing to blame the MLG doors.
cheers
only one thing to blame the MLG doors.
cheers
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NSEU, If you flare at the normal time/height with reduced elevator control it will be too late so the only option is to pre brief an earlier or stronger flare and make sure it's done, easily missed when considering post landing actions plus no one wants to land long in a non standard config.
QRH - System 4
Inoperative Items
Right outboard elevator inop - Pitch control is reduced.
If system 4 is inoperative: Extend the ground spoilers manually and slowly. Automatic extension of the outboard ground spoilers, without automatic extension of the inboard ground spoilers, causes the nose to pitch up.
Only two spoilers came up on each wing as the speedbrake was manually deployed to the flight detent only, they could have gone to full. IIRC the classic QRH used to say extend full after nose gear touchdown.
QRH - System 4
Inoperative Items
Right outboard elevator inop - Pitch control is reduced.
If system 4 is inoperative: Extend the ground spoilers manually and slowly. Automatic extension of the outboard ground spoilers, without automatic extension of the inboard ground spoilers, causes the nose to pitch up.
Only two spoilers came up on each wing as the speedbrake was manually deployed to the flight detent only, they could have gone to full. IIRC the classic QRH used to say extend full after nose gear touchdown.
Last edited by SMOC; 30th Dec 2014 at 00:35.
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Never flown heavy jets so this may be a stupid question, but would the flight crew in this case have deliberately pumped fuel to the left wing tanks in order to shift the centre of gravity and reduce the chances of a strike on a right engine during landing?
Paxing All Over The World
Do amuse yourselves by checking the 'news' as reported. Here are a couple:
The Daily Mirror
There does not appear to have been any 'struggle' since he achieved all his objectives, as well as those of his employer.
One Pax reports:
Good to know the Pax know how these things work. here's their front page:
The Daily Mail
this links to their front page, via the BBC round up of papers:
BBC News - Newspaper headlines: Ebola fears, plane emergency and Greece
(Thread drift: They also mention 'Ebola panic' So, within 12 hours of a single case being isolated and treated properly - they know that there is a 'panic'.
The Independent
The Daily Mirror
It has emerged that the pilot’s daughter was on board the plane as her hero dad struggled to land the aircraft safely.
One Pax reports:
“At one point we dropped from 7,000ft to 5,000ft in about a second,” she said.
The Daily Mail
Terrified passengers on the flight were ordered to adopt the 'brace' position by the pilot over the speaker.
Good to know he was doing his job. 
this links to their front page, via the BBC round up of papers:
BBC News - Newspaper headlines: Ebola fears, plane emergency and Greece
(Thread drift: They also mention 'Ebola panic' So, within 12 hours of a single case being isolated and treated properly - they know that there is a 'panic'.
The Independent
Nick Hughes, a passenger on the aircraft, told BBC Radio 5 Live: “Initially they didn’t reveal everything to the passengers. After we’d circled a few times you got the sense things weren’t quite right. They gave every opportunity for the landing gear to open, but unfortunately it never did.“The actual landing was one of the softest landings I’d ever had. The crew were exemplary.”
Last edited by PAXboy; 30th Dec 2014 at 02:17. Reason: Add link to Mirror front page
As some passengers reported the best soft bounced landing ever!
BBC iPlayer - South Today - 29/12/2014
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This certainly strengthens the need for a second runway at LGW . In that scenario , going back to a single runway with the best single runway ATC crew in the world would be a no brainer .
Very impressed with the quickish retrieval of the 74 from the runway .
Very impressed with the quickish retrieval of the 74 from the runway .
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LLuCCiFer you little devil (and Nepone)
It annoys me when these " Gods gift to aviation Knowbetters" come out of the woodwork and start making critical comments. Sadly, it is the rest of us who have the misfortune to have to listen to their constant drivel either on here or when sitting next to them. This was a job well done, with a successful, safe outcome...Like others have said it wasn't you and you weren't there! ....enough said 
Would a second runway make much difference? The limiting factor is usually the airport's overall fire cover being reduced below minimum levels whilst dealing with an emergency.
Jet Jockey. Fair enough; there may have been extenuating circumstances, but I bet the pilot would have preferred a smooth touchdown! I've never seen such a big bounce from a 747.
Jet Jockey. Fair enough; there may have been extenuating circumstances, but I bet the pilot would have preferred a smooth touchdown! I've never seen such a big bounce from a 747.
Presenter on LBC Radio this morning talking to an 'aviation expert' said "we had a near miss here yesterday when a Virgin jumbo jet had a successful crash landing"
I would have called it an unsuccessful CRASH landing.
I would have called it an unsuccessful CRASH landing.
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Infallible Brits are God's gift to aviation
No, I'm not God's gift to aviation, but just look at the wing flex upon that landing! Sorry, but that's not a normal landing and the situation IMHO does not justify something like this. What about the stress on the remaining gears?
As I've said before, of course you're not going to milk it for a nice greaser, but planting (and bouncing!) it down like this is not much safer either.
If they also had an HYD 4 problem in addition to a partial gear extension, then I seriously wonder why they didn't go to LRH which has a longer runway and is also a Virgin base (Maintenance, Pax handling etc) instead of returning to LGW.
If something like this would have happened to Korean Air, everybody here would be scrutinizing every little detail, but since it happened to a couple of infallible Brits and the aircraft appears to still be in one piece it's "well done to the crew" all over sudden? The only real 'gifts' to aviation on this website appear to be infallible Brits who talk with an Oxford accent.
As I've said before, of course you're not going to milk it for a nice greaser, but planting (and bouncing!) it down like this is not much safer either.
If they also had an HYD 4 problem in addition to a partial gear extension, then I seriously wonder why they didn't go to LRH which has a longer runway and is also a Virgin base (Maintenance, Pax handling etc) instead of returning to LGW.
If something like this would have happened to Korean Air, everybody here would be scrutinizing every little detail, but since it happened to a couple of infallible Brits and the aircraft appears to still be in one piece it's "well done to the crew" all over sudden? The only real 'gifts' to aviation on this website appear to be infallible Brits who talk with an Oxford accent.
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A good job down by the VIrgin crew, must of been very sweaty palms on that approach.
When they made their initial call to LGW tower they said that they where a "Pan" aircraft, surely this sort of issue would of warranted a Mayday at least ?
When they made their initial call to LGW tower they said that they where a "Pan" aircraft, surely this sort of issue would of warranted a Mayday at least ?