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Air Asia Indonesia Lost Contact from Surabaya to Singapore

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Air Asia Indonesia Lost Contact from Surabaya to Singapore

Old 7th Jan 2015, 23:14
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Al Jazeera is using this photo to link to their tail found story. Any ideas?
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=is...w=1280&bih=685

And the linked story with one other underwater shot:
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia-p...921222442.html
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Old 7th Jan 2015, 23:57
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THS deflection

To debunk the earlier post regarding the automatics causing max trim the AF447 trim was caused by excessive and prolonged stick back pilot input for a few minutes. It was not HAL taking control. On the contrary the protections were degraded which allowed him to make more mistakes due to his lack of training and bad decisions.
To use a car analogy it is like turning the steering wheel to full lock and then blaming the power steering for making the car skid. Without the driver input the assist would not be in use at all.
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Old 8th Jan 2015, 00:19
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Originally Posted by xcitation
To use a car analogy it is like turning the steering wheel to full lock and then blaming the power steering for making the car skid. Without the driver input the assist would not be in use at all.
Rubbish. When you let go of the steering wheel, the steering returns to centre/neutral. In an Airbus, the Stab Trim happily stays at the full back trim position. Just what I don't want! Nerds designing features into aeroplanes that shouldn't be there. If you're hand-flying, you should be trimming. Much less likely to manually trim full back into a stall...
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Old 8th Jan 2015, 00:32
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Datum POB

There was 1 infant on board. That explains the difference.

Another thing to keep in mind is that there was 1 technician on board (his role is not explained - in other cases he might have been included in the number of passengers, just like 'hitching' flight crew that are not relief crew). The usual reporting is a crew consisting of the pilots and cabin crew. In this case 2 plus 4. Making up a total crew of not 6 but 7.
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Old 8th Jan 2015, 00:40
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Al Jazeera is using this photo to link to their tail found story. Any ideas?
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=is...w=1280&bih=685
From that image, it appears the fuselage separated from the tail near the aft cabin door...
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Old 8th Jan 2015, 00:40
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Capt Bloggs is right, although in an Airbus "hand flying" is more akin to "control wheel steering" in most Boeings. ie, its not really manual flying, and there is no realistic control force feedback.

I am an Airbus admirer, but training departments are too influenced by Airbus marketing when it comes to the infallibility of the protections.
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Old 8th Jan 2015, 00:58
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Hi guys,

As a holder of only a VFR PPL, I am finding it interesting following this thread as I am always amazed at the type of weather that commercial airliners are prepared to navigate through. BUT, as we are all taught even in very basic MET theory, CB's can pack a very impressive punch.

Has anyone plotted the course of the aircraft (as we know it) over an overlay of detailed weather at the time of the accident including winds, temperatures, gradients by flight level?

In terms of specific commercial pilot training in terms of flying in CB's, what are the training parameters and recommendations for pilots in airlines today? due to tighter and tighter schedules, how have these parameters changed over the years?

Lastly, with all the traffic in the area, I have not seen any info related to comments from other pilots that flew in the area that day - obviously this will come out during the investigation - but this info could provide some clues onto potentially unusual weather in the CB's in the area at the time.

As this appears to be very much a weather related incident related to CB's, this could simply end up being a case of being at the wrong place at the wrong time with an unusual recovery (if it was possible) required for the pilots.
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Old 8th Jan 2015, 01:08
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More photos of the tail area are appearing through twitter and a nice analysis of the photo too.

Source: Twitter

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Old 8th Jan 2015, 01:44
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AWQ8501: "Eight five zero one (registrasi) alpha x-ray charlie parking stand Alpha Niner (A9) destination Singapore POB (passenger on board) one six one, request push and start, wagon air eight five zero one..." - See more at: http://www.tnp.sg/news/leaked-communication-between-airasia-flight-qz8501-and-air-traffic-control#sthash.gTcM1WTj.dpuf

162 total POB made up of 155 passengers and 7 crew?

7 crew: 2 pilots, 4 cabin crew and 1 engineer?

The 155 passengers included 16 children and 1 baby?

The baby should be included in the total POB correct?

Why was an engineer on board?..this is not normal for A320 operations.

Shouldn't the engineer have been reported as a passenger verses an operating crew member?
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Old 8th Jan 2015, 02:09
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Some operators have engineers on board to perform routine checks/refuelling on the ground. They are counted as crew as they are not revenue passengers - all quite normal
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Old 8th Jan 2015, 02:24
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and/or 'non-routine' maintenance..

How often would a LCC on an international sector use a revenue seat for an engineer to faciliate a standard turnaround?..
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Old 8th Jan 2015, 02:37
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Skin blowoff

Ref pics in Post Training wheels
Permalink
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...ml#post8815363

First four pics: Multiple alternating, relatively parallel fold lines resulting in flattened panel from original curved, suggesting broad area force on fuse bottom 'pushing' up. Last two pics less clear, especially the drawn green fold line on #6 LR. Unclear why panel bearing FLY in #5LL could not be a 45 deg fold/peel aft from AC top center, or foldup/peel from tear running up and aft through window line, ie optical illusion? Need more pics.

Third photo at:
Tail of crashed AirAsia flight found - Asia-Pacific - Al Jazeera English
shows skin stripped off fuse frames and stringers, frames retaining their shape, fuselage orientation unclear other than light indicating up is up, unidentified as whether part of other fuselage pics or from a different fuse section.

Might this suggest paper bag (cabin air-only) type explosion blowoff of a large area of skin from flat impact, high vertical velocity? If not what else could cause this?
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Old 8th Jan 2015, 02:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xcitation

Rubbish. When you let go of the steering wheel, the steering returns to centre/neutral. In an Airbus, the Stab Trim happily stays at the full back trim position. Just what I don't want! Nerds designing features into aeroplanes that shouldn't be there. If you're hand-flying, you should be trimming. Much less likely to manually trim full back into a stall..
My point was that pulling the stick back for 4 minutes is what took down AF447. The stab trim was a secondary consequence of the stick back. If you know your plane then you are aware of this consequence and can over ride if you chose to. However in some situations this runs the risk of potential damaging the control surface by over loading forces which has happened in boeings.
All that matters is to know your a/c whether it is a boeing, bus or whatever. To your point the Airbus clearly has a complex matrix of flight laws and protection modes which are harder to master than the simplistic boeing model. One could argue that in extremis the extra complication of different modes in airbus overloads the pilot. However they are easier and safer to fly in normal law with protections. It is a trade off. Then again in a bus you can always power off HAL to turn it into a boeing.
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Old 8th Jan 2015, 04:25
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A balloon which can carry up to ten tonnes weight is being used in an endeavour to recover the tail section.
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Old 8th Jan 2015, 04:48
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A balloon which can carry up to ten tonnes weight is being used in an endeavour to recover the tail section.
The Straits Times are talking about using a crane to retrieve the tail section

Divers search wreckage of plane's tail for black boxes

But maybe an air filled balloon is being used to get it off the bottom and up to the surface.
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Old 8th Jan 2015, 06:30
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in air breakup?

With respect to the ongoing discussion about the aeroplane breaking up mid air.

For what its worth, when the the first victims were recovered there was a tv crew in the helo that winched up a body. I have not seen it mentioned in the forum but that video was broadcast on local tv as the announcement they had found the first victims was made. The video we saw here at the time was raw, subsequent broadcasts were blurred.

The victim was a young woman floating on her back the only clothing left on her were a minimalist pair of briefs and bra. This could indicate she fell to the water losing her clothing in the fall. Its been mentioned on local tv other victims have been found with out clothing.

Another thing I have not heard mentioned is if the victims had water in their lungs. I would have thought with the delay on hard information investigators would be keen to know this.

The may do so and not made it public, post mortem is not a routine procedure here like in western countries. There were not many muslims on this flight but they certainly frown upon post mortem.
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Old 8th Jan 2015, 07:16
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I have read discussion deep in a thread that you take both flight computers offline by pulling the breakers. This reverts the flight controls to mechanical law backup. The side stick no longer works. Instead the rudder pedals and trim are used to control the flight surfaces.
Not so.

The FAC's are switched off by using the switches on the overhead panel.

The sidesticks will work perfectly

You'll be in ALTN Law with protections lost. Direct Law with Gear Down. You will NOT be in mechanical back up.

If you were to turn off all ELACs and SEC's you will be in Mechanical Back Up.
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Old 8th Jan 2015, 07:22
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Datum, as per your question regarding an engineer taking a revenue seat this simply is not the case if the aircraft is full we would occupy a cockpit jump seat, and I have done in numerous occasions.
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Old 8th Jan 2015, 07:41
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International Business Times reports:

“....Signals from the black box of AirAsia Flight 8501 were detected Wednesday near where the plane's tail has been located in the Java Sea, but the pings were later lost, Indonesian Armed Forces Commander General Moeldoko said Thursday. Authorities reportedly said that the recovery of the tail section, where the flight recorders are typically located, is underway...".
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Old 8th Jan 2015, 07:52
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I am still struggling to fully understand what we can see in the pictures.
The outside pictures quite obviously do show the fuselage skin forward of the aft pax door, and the VTP (you can see the "i-dot" of "Air").
For the internal picture I am still unsure what we can see.
Does this image help:
No, it is an A300 picture...
The item on the left side looks like a bleed air duct wrapped in insulation material (APU bleed line), the milled part is round on the left edge, so it can not be part of the HTP spar box, it looks more like an upper VTP attachment frame, the fitting is too long to be the trim actuator fitting. On the left side it looks like a lot of wires and connectors.

And for the other Airbus discussion...
Without the driver input the assist would not be in use at all.
100% correct. The stabilizer trim will never do something without a pilot input (either to the computers or via sidestick or trim switch) triggering this action, however....
the AF447 trim was caused by excessive and prolonged stick back pilot input for a few minutes.
This is wrong.
My point was that pulling the stick back for 4 minutes is what took down AF447.
This is wrong as well. Please have a look at the available FDR data first. What triggered the trim movement was several short nose up inputs during a time during which the main inputs were left-right. The 4 minutes of stick back (a shorter, but still extremely long time even full back) were applied after the trim had already reached the full nose up stop, when basically all was done already, and the nose was even dropping below the horizon, which can somehow explain why full nose up inputs were given at that time. This does not mean, the systems brought down this plane, of course it was the pilot doing unbelievable errors in understanding the situation and steering the plane ignoring all procedures and hand flying basics. But he was not acting as stupid as it sometimes is stated in an enormously simplified version of the event.

For the time being I can see no link between both cases, except that it happened over water with severe thunderstorm activity in the area. But this time it was early dusk, not pitch dark night. I find it highly unlikely that similar attitude deviations remain unnoticed if you have some outside reference. I find it highly unlikely that a climb was not noticed, when such climb was requested but explicitly disapproved by ATC.
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