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Air Asia Indonesia Lost Contact from Surabaya to Singapore

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Air Asia Indonesia Lost Contact from Surabaya to Singapore

Old 2nd Jan 2015, 17:24
  #1021 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
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There is a whole host of information that can be gathered about the crash from the autopsies of the victims. The details are pretty morbid, but the information could be critical.

Though it tends to become news fodder it is really a key part of the investigation. See the link below regarding AA587 as an example of the information gained.

Victim Fragmentation Patterns and Seat Location Supplements Crash Data: American Airlines Flight 587 | Amy Mundorff - Academia.edu
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Old 2nd Jan 2015, 17:28
  #1022 (permalink)  
 
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I also have the same question as Frequent_Flyer and equally with no morbid curiosity. One thing that would be determined in an autopsy is whether there is water in the lungs of the deceased which would end speculation regarding whether the person was alive or dead when the plane hit the water.
If the bodies have been submerged for a few days then everything will be full of water regardless of whether they are breathing at the time or not
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Old 2nd Jan 2015, 17:30
  #1023 (permalink)  
 
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Missing clues or confident of cause?

"Doctors have said they are not attempting to establish a cause of death. Their focus is on identifying victims quickly and returning them to their families".

AirAsia flight QZ8501: 30 bodies recovered after six days of searching
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Old 2nd Jan 2015, 17:31
  #1024 (permalink)  
 
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Condition of Bodies

Deepest apologies if this has already been said; I am two pages behind in catching up here:

Also - and echoing an earlier post - no information has come out about the cause of death identified in the bodies brought back to shore. Distressing as it is to the families, the condition of the bodies may be an important clue as to what happened to the plane.
I can't speak with any authority whatsoever, since I can't fly (and that's a good thing), but the fact that the bodies recovered so far are, apparently, relatively intact, gives the lie to the preposterous speculation that the airplane was pointed straight down at impact. Wouldn't we have nothing left but small fragments in case of a high-velocity impact?

By the same token, if there had been a "water landing," you'd likely expect some death by drowning autopsy results.
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Old 2nd Jan 2015, 17:34
  #1025 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by deadheader
"Doctors have said they are not attempting to establish a cause of death. Their focus is on identifying victims quickly and returning them to their families".
Can understand the need to return the victims' bodies to their families, but not investigating the cause of death is a pity as it helps understand the final events a little better and if anyone suffered.
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Old 2nd Jan 2015, 17:35
  #1026 (permalink)  
 
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Frequent FlyerQuestion:
Why is there no information on an autopsy on her or other PAX?
Afterall, an autopsy can probably give vital clues to this incident. For example, hypoxia, level of stress an fear, certain organ damage can be examined and provide clues to whether there was discompression, whether people had time to get scared etc. Just like autopsys would be performed with any incident on ground where people have died and a criminal investigation in neccessary.
I'm curious to hear your thoughts ladies and gents! Thanx.
Will be released in due time and certainly a summary (as usual) in the final investigation report
Note that the general public is not a partie of the criminal investigation .. as usual
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Old 2nd Jan 2015, 17:35
  #1027 (permalink)  
 
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If the accident were, for example, under British jurisdiction surely autopsies would be deemed essential, regardless of religious sensitivities?
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Old 2nd Jan 2015, 17:42
  #1028 (permalink)  
 
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Debris

Not many pics of debris yet. This appears to be another view of same debris as in earlier posts here. Some readers may recognize pieces and, more importantly, call attention to details that suggest the type of forces involved in the ac coming apart.
BBC News - AirAsia QZ8501: Search for plane focuses on seabed
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Old 2nd Jan 2015, 17:44
  #1029 (permalink)  
 
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Surely any/all religious practices/requirements/preferences/rites etc should be secondary to the legal requirements of a crash investigation, after all some crashes are crime scenes.

SAMPUBLIUS, yep it's not wood, as you say fibreglass panels. From A320?, the hose appears to be an air feed or extraction for filtration.
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Old 2nd Jan 2015, 17:48
  #1030 (permalink)  
 
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Unfortunately, with some religions they override any concept of what we in the West might expect in our culture with respect to establishing cause of death, crash investigation.
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Old 2nd Jan 2015, 17:59
  #1031 (permalink)  
 
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Indonesia is constitutionally a secular state. It also seems that these flights actually serve a large proportion of ethnic chinese Christians.
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Old 2nd Jan 2015, 18:27
  #1032 (permalink)  
 
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Unfortunately, with some religions they override any concept of what we in the West might expect in our culture with respect to establishing cause of death, crash investigation.
This has nothing to do with religion.

What Indonesia is doing is standard practice for large aircraft accidents in most countries (including major accidents in the U.S.) It would be highly impractical and extremely time consuming to conduct detailed autopsies -- to the point of determining the cause of death -- for all 162 victims.

Instead, an abbreviated autopsy is performed on each victim primarily to establish the victim's identity. In Indonesia, this is done under Police jurisdiction (from DVI -- Disaster Victim Identification unit).

Typically all victims are photographed, x-rayed (including dental x-rays) and fingerprinted. DNA samples may be taken from soft tissue, especially on limbs recovered without a body. Toxicology drug/alcohol samples may be obtained from some victims (typically any identified cockpit crew).

Major internal & external injuries are also noted, along with any foreign material found (embedded debris, shrapnel), burn marks, etc. E.g., "left tibia broken, right lung lacerated, body intact, no burn marks, no water in lung".

All of the information will be consolidated into a database, for later investigation by the National Transportation Safety Committee.

As an example, a similar abbreviated process was used in the US even on the TWA800 crash -- when the FBI suspected that a bomb might have downed the airplane.
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Old 2nd Jan 2015, 18:49
  #1033 (permalink)  
 
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Some of the photos here (choose A320 in the menu on the left and then "Overhead bins") show hoses which look rather like that visible in the pictures of that collection of debris.
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Old 2nd Jan 2015, 19:04
  #1034 (permalink)  
 
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However, recovery from a stall requires:

1. reduce AoA, and
2. regain airspeed
Well, you're half right.
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Old 2nd Jan 2015, 19:17
  #1035 (permalink)  
 
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Anyone remember "step on sky"? Unload the plane to zero AOA and use rudder to level the wings
Works great on some airplanes, AA over Long Island not so much
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Old 2nd Jan 2015, 20:09
  #1036 (permalink)  
 
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Firefly:

A/c can stall in any attitude and airspeed.
Nonsense.

We are talking commercial aviation here, not aerobatic puddle-jumpers. If you are pulling that much g that you stall with the nose low and with a high airspeed, then the stall-condition is NOT your primary problem.



Airphoto:

Anyone remember "step on sky"? Unload the plane to zero AOA and use rudder to level the wings
Yeah, except we don't use rudder to level the wings in commercial jets. The rudder is immensely powerful, especially with twins, and has to be treated with respect.

Let's say the left wing stalls and drops. If you kick too much right rudder, the swept wing makes the right wing violently drop. This leads to the perception that the right wing has now stalled, even though you may actually have successfully unstalled the aircraft. So you kick left, and now the left wing drops. And what you have just successfully achieved, is to do an American Airlines 587, and break your tail off. And it was all one big PIYaw and PIRoll (as opposed to a PIO), and nothing to do with the stall.

The recommended technique is push the c/c forwards (I term it this way for a reason), reduce the thrust a bit, gain some speed, and THEN roll the wings level. Simple and safe.

Last edited by silverstrata; 2nd Jan 2015 at 20:25. Reason: new section
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Old 2nd Jan 2015, 20:12
  #1037 (permalink)  
 
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...and that's exactly what may have happened this this accident.

Nonsense?
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Old 2nd Jan 2015, 20:28
  #1038 (permalink)  
 
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The nominal G limit choosen for the high operation coffin corner is 1.3G. Flying a 30 degree bank angle will stall you there. What about any updraft in an ITCZ CB?
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Old 2nd Jan 2015, 20:47
  #1039 (permalink)  
 
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silverstrata, it may be nonsense to you but it's fundamental that an aircraft can stall in any attitude and airspeed.
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Old 2nd Jan 2015, 21:02
  #1040 (permalink)  
 
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Lurking slf comment alert!

What always surprises me reading these threads is the amount of disagreement among the pro's about topics which I would have thought were quite basic such as stall recovery. I hope as a fare paying passenger that this is because many comments are from people who are not actually professional pilots.

I strongly suspect that in a year or two's time when the report into this has been finalised, it will be shown to have been something nobody's yet thought of.

Thanks for the opportunity to comment.
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