Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Air Asia Indonesia Lost Contact from Surabaya to Singapore

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Air Asia Indonesia Lost Contact from Surabaya to Singapore

Old 2nd Jan 2015, 05:31
  #961 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Bangkok
Age: 91
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Several days ago, SIN announced in was sending Sonar Locators. Nothing heard since.
bapak is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2015, 06:15
  #962 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: milky way
Posts: 247
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Leaving a managerial position at Total to join P2F for Air Asia with that education..with all respect for the poor guy seems odd. I happen to have friends in Air Asia recruited as direct upgrade FO .... they actually paid for their upgrade as well. Time to say enough with P2F.
furbpilot is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2015, 06:15
  #963 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2011
Location: UK
Age: 61
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by training wheels
I don't believe any current airline pilots would dare damage their own credibility and say anything to the media at this early stage because the fact of the matter is, we won't know what happened until the FDR and CVR has been recovered
That apparently doesn't apply to many posting here. Perhaps anonymity allows them to ignore your very sensible point, particularly when it comes to sticking the boot in to Airbus or its engineers, for some reason.
HeavyMetallist is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2015, 06:23
  #964 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Antipodes Islands
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I modestly propose force transducers on the radome mounts. The forces from the transducers could be algebraically summed to produce a net force which could then be processed against radome drag coefficient to produce airspeed.
That's not an altogether stupid idea. The only problem is changes in apparent drag due to accumulated ice or water striking the surface in rain.

Back in my micrometeorolgy days I'd considered and discarded this approach when looking at low cost wind speed and direction sensors.

But 10/10 in the lateral thinking stakes!
Mahatma Kote is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2015, 06:28
  #965 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: nz
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
"We found parts of the plane which could be part of the wing or the plane's interior," he said on local television channel MetroTV, displaying a white wooden structure about 1.5 by 1 metres with part of a corrugated hose attached.
Jesus wept!

I see your photo Mach2point7, wooden airframe parts in an A320....seriously??

Last edited by Weheka; 2nd Jan 2015 at 08:57.
Weheka is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2015, 06:52
  #966 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Mach2point7 is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2015, 06:56
  #967 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Yangon,Myanmar
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
.... they actually paid for their upgrade as well. Time to say enough with P2F.
This is the topic that mass media will not discuss...not even the affable Richard Quest...

It is off limits!

I think you are right, there needs to be a discussion about this business practice. When lives are at stake, you need 2 equals up in the cockpit who can figure things out together. The FO needs to step in if need be.
Does P2F compromise this? That is the question...
chefrp is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2015, 07:33
  #968 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
For all against P2F.
Even if this was P2F, l would have thought that after over 2000 hrs he would have leaned a lot more than just asking if the Captain wanted sugar in his tea.
multycpl is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2015, 07:40
  #969 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
First funeral held for passenger on AirAsia flight QZ8501

Hope that they did not miss to examanine "cause of death"

The news report only says that victims are being identified.
MaxJack is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2015, 07:42
  #970 (permalink)  
Pegase Driver
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 73
Posts: 3,667
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Mach2point7 : if this photo is a debris from the aircraft we are talking about here, then this kills the "nice smooth " water ditching theory of some journos.
ATC Watcher is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2015, 07:43
  #971 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Yangon,Myanmar
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Even if this was P2F, l would have thought that after over 2000 hrs he would have leaned a lot more than just asking if the Captain wanted sugar in his tea.
Yes I would agree too, but not sure to what extent...

I think the real issue is the dynamics in the cockpit. Is there true respect and and positive working environment? or is it dysfunctional with the with the old air force pro wary of jumping off to the toilet for a few minutes?
chefrp is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2015, 08:50
  #972 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mid-central South of England
Posts: 201
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Is there really that much fact in any so called news

For those of us who actually do this for a living, for those who have done so previously or even are just really interested, not to say incredibly knowledgeable, in aviation as a whole this is a Rumour Network so people can and do say, declare and claim their bit of rumour, theory or supposition.

That said of course when we who know something look at the sensationalism and wild ass claims of the media with their so called experts in, well to be frank, any thing really, are we really suprised that it is so wrong. Not only that, if you take aviation as a single subject and look wider across All news from finance to auto motive or conflict to the culinary arts say. Journos are the self licking lolly pop that sensationalises everything to grab the interest of the lowest common denominator and give them "Facts" of News that they can talk about. When we see from our part of ship the tripe they and their experts come up with is it not somewhat indicative of the made up and hyped nature of pretty much everything else within the media circle we read about, listen to and watch. Simply declaring their facts not surrounded by subterfuge, gossip, rumour and sensationalism wouldn't be half as interesting to the general public.....
This, our Rumour Network, also has Wild Ass guesses of reason and cause but we can sift it and discredit it amongst ourselves....relying on the commercial media to give us our facts, well quite frankly, maybe worth an over view but then leave it in the back ground. Eventually more real facts wil come out and we can look back, say " ah so that's why it climbed, descended, pitched, rolled and our companies will like as not throw in some delayed but enhanced training package as mitigation of what we have found out was sadly lacking before.
So rumour on and let everyone have their say............
Axel-Flo is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2015, 09:24
  #973 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: England
Posts: 1,389
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Families evicted from hotel

AirAsia flight QZ8501: Families of victims 'evicted from their hotel on New Year's Eve' - Asia - World - The Independent

Families of the passengers on board the crashed AirAsia flight were reportedly evicted from their hotel rooms without warning on New Year’s Eve, despite apparent assurances from the airline.
Earlier at a press conference the AirAsia Indonesia boss Sunu Widiatmoko had admitted that rooms were hard to find on New Year’s Eve, while the hotel reportedly said they had been fully booked and that the airline had sanctioned the move.
cwatters is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2015, 09:33
  #974 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: US
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Search Navy Admiral’s statement posted on AirAsia Ceo’s pg

Area covering 1,575 square nautical miles will be scoured by three vessels equipped with underwater detection equipment, said Admiral Abdul Aziz Jaafar.

KUALA LUMPUR: In Day 6 of the search for the missing AirAsia flight QZ8501, the search zone has moved 30 nautical miles east from the previous day, while an area covering 1,575 square nautical miles has been established as the “Most Probable Area” where the wreckage will be found, according to the Malaysian Chief of Navy.

“This is the most likely area of the missing plane,” said Admiral Abdul Aziz Jaafar on Twitter on Friday morning (Jan 2).

Three ships – KN Baruna Jaya 1, KN Hidayat and MV Geo Survey - have been tasked to The Most Probable Area, which spans 45 by 35 nautical miles, he said. All three vessels are equipped with underwater marine detection systems, including side-scan sonar and pinger-locators, to help search for the missing plane.

Also on Friday morning, France's air accident authority, BEA, announced that it will send a specialist black box search team to assist in the search. The team is expected to arrive at the search zone on Friday.

The crash investigation agency will bring detection equipment including hydrophones to the search zone, in the hope of detecting signals from the flight recorder - commonly known as the black box - from the missing AirAsia plane, said the BEA.
BG47 is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2015, 09:50
  #975 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Herts, UK
Posts: 748
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
@HarryMann -- Do the math. Downdraft of 250+ mph?? I mean I'm the one speculating about unprecedented tropical weather phenomena, but that is beyond even my ability to conjecture.
Look...it isn't 'Math' it's primary school arithmetic !

Terminal velocity concepts apply only within the air mass you exist in...

if your T.V. is say 120 kts down and you're in a downdraught of the same it would seem to radar that you are descending faster than terminal velocity, by a factor of two (and you would be)

So quite possible to descend much faster than T.V. and climb much faster than the aircraft max. climb... and there is also no presumption the aircraft would be stalled either.. ask any glider pilot.
HarryMann is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2015, 10:01
  #976 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canada/Malaysia
Age: 83
Posts: 271
Received 18 Likes on 12 Posts
...and more wreckage


...picked up by Singapore Navy...
BlankBox is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2015, 10:12
  #977 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Tree
Posts: 222
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts

"it is our priority to look after the relatives and love ones of the passengers".
Sop_Monkey is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2015, 10:27
  #978 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Moses Lake, WA
Age: 63
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The big thing affecting recovery from a stall at high altitude is that there is very high drag at such low speed, and little thrust available from the engines due to the low air density. You need to descend to allow the speed to increase. In the high altitude flight testing I've done on transport category aircraft (various business and regional jets), it usually takes a descent of 2000 ft or so to build enough airspeed so the drag is low enough to allow the available thrust to be sufficient for a reasonable acceleration.

At 20,000 ft, the engines have much more thrust available, so it should be possible to recover from the stall with less than 1000 ft altitude loss, assuming a sharp pilot (but a sharp pilot should never have stalled in the first place, so we can't assume he suddenly becomes razor sharp during the stall recovery).

All the stalls I've done on large airliner types (various Airbus products, in direct law, to confirm Airbus's claimed CL Max value) have been at lower altitudes, but the same should apply to them at high altitude. The interesting thing about aerodynamic stalls in the Airbus is that from the perspective of the pilot's seat it is very difficult to identify the moment when the aircraft stalls. Light buffet starts prior to the stall, but there is no aircraft wing drop or nose down pitch to identify the moment of the stall. We relied on the flight test engineer in the back, who was monitoring the output of the flight test instrumentation, to call out "CL Max", as the point to initiate the recovery.

Note: all the above comments are with respect to an aerodynamic stall - i.e. the angle of attack has exceeded the value for maximum lift. If the pilot recovers at stall warning the drag is somewhat lower, and thus less altitude loss is required for the recovery.
khorton is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2015, 10:39
  #979 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,044
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts

Thanks for your insight... I think many on this thread are missing the difference between a "Stall Warning" (which AF447 got prior any stall), and a "Stall" which you cover. Your post indicates the difficulty in recovering from a genuine stall, albeit seemingly (in AoA terms) approximately at the stall?

AF447 got way beyond this, 40 AoA, long period >35AoA, so the recovery would have been far more difficult one assumes?

Finally, your post refers to the thrust required to recover from the stall. Clearly our "QRH Drills" will differ from your Test procedures, but our drills require us to recover from the stall without the use of power (certainly none added, and reduce in case of pitch authority issues). We only add power once the Stall Indications are removed. This can only add to the difficulty / height loss / nose down attitude required to recover?

Any insight / estimate you could give as to the height / pitch / technique required to recover a modern Airbus from a 40AoA stall would be much appreciated
NigelOnDraft is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2015, 10:46
  #980 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 302
Received 16 Likes on 6 Posts
He was sceptical, however, that the figure cited of up to 24,000 feet per minute descent was possible, saying that terminal velocity is nowhere near that speed."
24,000 fpm = approx 250 knots. How could that be anywhere near terminal velocity?
Pearly White is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.