Air Asia Indonesia Lost Contact from Surabaya to Singapore
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When AirAsia Flight QZ8501 crashed, the co-pilot was flying the plane. The pilot was monitoring the flight. And things may have gone wrong in a span of just three minutes and 20 seconds.That's the assessment of Indonesia's National Transportation Safety Committee.
Investigator: Co-pilot flew AirAsia Flight QZ8501 - CNN.com
Investigator: Co-pilot flew AirAsia Flight QZ8501 - CNN.com
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QZ 8501 FO's family sues AsiaAir 48hrs before FO designated as PF
Interesting timing: FO's family sues the airline (for dangerous & illegal operations) two days before Airline says CVR proves he was the Pilot Flying at the time of the accident. The airline also says 320's FDR shows no mechanical,electrical or weather-related-related malfunctions before steep climb, subsequent loss of control, and crash. The family's suit is based on "illegal operation" ( flying without a route permit on that day), "overcrowded skies" "excessive ATC workload." Lawyers... !!
France-La famille du copilote d'Air Asia porte plainte | Reuters
AirAsia : le copilote français pilotait l'avion au moment du crash
France-La famille du copilote d'Air Asia porte plainte | Reuters
AirAsia : le copilote français pilotait l'avion au moment du crash
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but I find it a bit strange that an aircraft with so many protections built in, will allow the autotrim to trim the stab into a position that you simply can't fly out of.
Has anyone ever explained why AF447 PF obsessively pulled back?
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When you have an A/C manufacture boasting that one of their latest models are "uncrashable" I think it will happen again but hope I'm wrong
This attitude and arrogance has astounded me ever since.
This attitude and arrogance has astounded me ever since.
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- ELACs/SECs working normally, in Normal Law
- Controlling FAC suffers a failure, but doesn't detect that failure
- As a consequence of the failure, the controlling FAC signals an overspeed condition
- ELACS/SECs carry out pull-up manoeuvre
Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinbird
As to the exact manner the FACs interface with the ELACs and SECs, my reading of FCOM indicates that it is the FACs that have the function of monitoring the flight envelope and invoking the protections (among other functions). The ELACs and SECs would then implement the response. Take a look at FCOM 1.22.40 Auto Flight-Flight Augmentation-and see if you read it that way.
Originally Posted by Machinbird
As to the exact manner the FACs interface with the ELACs and SECs, my reading of FCOM indicates that it is the FACs that have the function of monitoring the flight envelope and invoking the protections (among other functions). The ELACs and SECs would then implement the response. Take a look at FCOM 1.22.40 Auto Flight-Flight Augmentation-and see if you read it that way.
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Interesting timing: FO's family sues the airline (for dangerous & illegal operations) two days before Airline says CVR proves he was the Pilot Flying at the time of the accident. The airline also says 320's FDR shows no mechanical,electrical or weather-related-related malfunctions before steep climb, subsequent loss of control, and crash. The family's suit is based on "illegal operation" ( flying without a route permit on that day), "overcrowded skies" "excessive ATC workload." Lawyers... !!
France-La famille du copilote d'Air Asia porte plainte | Reuters
AirAsia : le copilote français pilotait l'avion au moment du crash
France-La famille du copilote d'Air Asia porte plainte | Reuters
AirAsia : le copilote français pilotait l'avion au moment du crash
However, not being an engineer, you probably did not note the items missing in that carefully enumerated list which I have bolded: Software, algorithm, system design are not mentioned. It is possible that all the protections worked as precisely as designed but this is a particular rare occurrence of a 'bus zoom climbing, as the WSJ reports, because the systems worked as designed.
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g force
NAROBS, you are confusing speed with acceleration. 55 m/s is speed. You seem to be assuming 55 m/s/s (=~5.5g). That would only be the case if the change in vertical speed all occurred in one second.
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AirAsia Flight 8501: Co-Pilot Was Flying Plane at Time of Crash, Officials Say - ABC News
Audible stall warning in Airbus (or stick shaker in Boeing) is designed to inform pilots that stall condition is approaching, but tracking the fate of an Air France flight 447 we can observe that stall warning appeared many times even when aircraft have already been stalled.
So imagine, you are simply falling with terminal velocity without any lift force on the wings and airplane is saying "watch out, you will stall in a moment"
Isn't that confusing?
Siswosuwarno said the plane was struggling to recover as stall warnings sounded until the end of the recording.
So imagine, you are simply falling with terminal velocity without any lift force on the wings and airplane is saying "watch out, you will stall in a moment"
Isn't that confusing?
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General
You have every cause and right to be concerned. You are not alone believe me. A/B never learnt from the findings of one or if not the first "computers" to run amuck at Bangalore. It was found to be "too complex an a/c to operate" for the training the crew were given.
Shouldn't operations be keep simple? If it's relatively simple then its relatively safe. When things are complicated humans don't normally cope so well. I am aware the Europeans are true masters at complicating things.
You have every cause and right to be concerned. You are not alone believe me. A/B never learnt from the findings of one or if not the first "computers" to run amuck at Bangalore. It was found to be "too complex an a/c to operate" for the training the crew were given.
Shouldn't operations be keep simple? If it's relatively simple then its relatively safe. When things are complicated humans don't normally cope so well. I am aware the Europeans are true masters at complicating things.
Last edited by Sop_Monkey; 30th Jan 2015 at 17:23.
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GF
I would not suggest you need to be
I would not assume many of the posters have done much flying outside MS Sim I can claim to be a 14000hr ex-RAF FJ A320 Captain, but so can they?
In software terms, no we do not. But in flying terms, we do not need to in practical terms?
Any aircraft will stall if you pull the stick back and hold it there and the aircraft does not stop you
It does, but you need to correctly interpret the situation (known as "SA"), and apply the correct procedures - but if you had that SA / knowledge, it is unlikely you would be in the situation on the first place. Catch 22
I would say an irrational decision. Boeings also crash for "Human Factors". If you want something to be concerned about, it is the "dumbing down" of pilots, their training and role (which the Airbus I will agree is a step towards), "Pay to Fly" etc.
but scary at the same time
If pilots on such a professional forum start interpreting things
The takeaway for me from all these discussions is that nobody really knows how an Airbus is programmed
Why is that an Airbus always stalls during turbulent weather
...and does not allow pilots to get back the control?
I, for one, will never fly an Airbus again
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At the time of the incident the co-pilot was flying?
NO !
First :
The autopilot was flying, the co-pilot in charge of turning the autopilots buttons, but he certainly was NOT flying.
Flying is : "I" have the stick and throttle in hand, and "I" control where the aircraft is going.
For reasons yet unknown to us, the autopilot could not cope with the situation, and left the pilots in an unrecoverable position.
Be it autopillot or sensor failure feeding wrong information to the autopilot is another discussion.
On a second side note:
Concerning general flying.
What ever happened to basic attitude indicator flying?????
Looking back at the AF447 video, the attitude indicator is clearly showing a WAY nose high attitude from start till impact.
Whatever, whenever fails, go back to basics.
Attitude, attitude, attitude. Wings level, nose ON the horizon, ball centered.
On a third note:
Basic aerobatics should be MANDATORY for ALL pilots.
IFR aerobatics on instruments should ALSO be made MANDATORY simm training.
Simple upset recovey is clearly NOT sufficient.
Well, the results are here. Pffft, unfortunately, again.
First :
The autopilot was flying, the co-pilot in charge of turning the autopilots buttons, but he certainly was NOT flying.
Flying is : "I" have the stick and throttle in hand, and "I" control where the aircraft is going.
For reasons yet unknown to us, the autopilot could not cope with the situation, and left the pilots in an unrecoverable position.
Be it autopillot or sensor failure feeding wrong information to the autopilot is another discussion.
On a second side note:
Concerning general flying.
What ever happened to basic attitude indicator flying?????
Looking back at the AF447 video, the attitude indicator is clearly showing a WAY nose high attitude from start till impact.
Whatever, whenever fails, go back to basics.
Attitude, attitude, attitude. Wings level, nose ON the horizon, ball centered.
On a third note:
Basic aerobatics should be MANDATORY for ALL pilots.
IFR aerobatics on instruments should ALSO be made MANDATORY simm training.
Simple upset recovey is clearly NOT sufficient.
Well, the results are here. Pffft, unfortunately, again.
What ever happened to basic attitude indicator flying?????
Am prepared to be wrong in this guess.
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Looking back at the AF447 video, the attitude indicator is clearly showing a WAY nose high attitude from start till impact.
Elsewhere asked "why did AF447 climb / stick back?". Noteworthy that in the mode changes the FDs went off and then reappeared as systems restored themselves. Of course, in these circs they come back in "basic modes" - vertically current V/S. So:
- FDs disappear (due ASI issue)
- For reasons various (see above) and in absence of AP/FDs PF pulls back
- FDs reappear in V/S climb
- However, due decreasing speed, and inappropriate pitch attitude selected by PF, that V/S is unattainable
- PF continues to "pull" to match FD and is still trying as aircraft stalls and gives up - but pull is still maintained
As you say, if we wish to prevent this then regular manual flying (without FDs) required on the line. Actual visual UP, then Instrument UP recoveries required in appropriate aircraft - and not just trained, but currency maintained.
The issues are not the individual pilots' fault, but the current state of the industry. I doubt they will have the inclination / $$$ to solve it, just accept the odd accident and blame the pilots
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IF it wasnt icing
Sorry if this was discussed before..but I read somewhere that when making a cruise climb in an Airbus and speed has been rolled back prior to climb THR set,that ATHR will actually command idle thrust.Can this be true?
If so,this might explain how they lost their speed margin,so critical at altitude in bad weather.In an effort to climb quickly,I can see how someone might roll back the speed selector prior to climb THR set and not notice(thrust levers dont move on an Airbus,no tactile feedback)what ATHR is actually commanding.
Could some Airbus pilot please clarify?I am used to FLCH/LVL CHG where full climb thrust is automatically commanded even if speed selector rolled back.
If so,this might explain how they lost their speed margin,so critical at altitude in bad weather.In an effort to climb quickly,I can see how someone might roll back the speed selector prior to climb THR set and not notice(thrust levers dont move on an Airbus,no tactile feedback)what ATHR is actually commanding.
Could some Airbus pilot please clarify?I am used to FLCH/LVL CHG where full climb thrust is automatically commanded even if speed selector rolled back.
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For reasons yet unknown to us, the autopilot could not cope with the situation, and left the pilots in an unrecoverable position.
Be it autopillot or sensor failure feeding wrong information to the autopilot is another discussion.
Be it autopillot or sensor failure feeding wrong information to the autopilot is another discussion.
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Rananim
You describe what I earlier referred to as a "French quirk" in the Airbus.
What you say is partially true, however it should not result in an issue since the outcome is really just a slow start to get the climb going - and of course, the pilots should be monitoring it. After all, in a non-Airbus, do you assess thrust from where the TLs are? Or what the gauges say? Is an engine failure indicated by the gauges? Or the TL retarding itself
You describe what I earlier referred to as a "French quirk" in the Airbus.
What you say is partially true, however it should not result in an issue since the outcome is really just a slow start to get the climb going - and of course, the pilots should be monitoring it. After all, in a non-Airbus, do you assess thrust from where the TLs are? Or what the gauges say? Is an engine failure indicated by the gauges? Or the TL retarding itself
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Nigel: probably we do not even know that
though, again from my couch, it seems unlikely to me that an A320 can fly that self destruct path under AP in Normal Law with full protections.
though, again from my couch, it seems unlikely to me that an A320 can fly that self destruct path under AP in Normal Law with full protections.