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Drones threatening commercial a/c?

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Drones threatening commercial a/c?

Old 20th Dec 2014, 16:31
  #141 (permalink)  

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Going to be a lot of incidents when the idiots open their Christmas presents. Apparently in UK, drones are the hottest choice of present for the man who has everything (except common sense). Yep, definitely time for a high-powered catapult and a stock of ball-bearings.
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Old 20th Dec 2014, 17:30
  #142 (permalink)  

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Where I live, every drone has to have a nameplate attached with all the details of the owner.

Simple yet effective no ?
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Old 21st Dec 2014, 11:46
  #143 (permalink)  

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El Grifo. Good idea; a simple solution. Further to my post regarding catapults, I would like to pose a legal question. Suppose a drone is flying over my house, and obviously photographing activity in my backyard. If I shoot it down with a catapult and the act is captured on the drone's camera, what is the legal position? Just asking; no intention of doing it.
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Old 21st Dec 2014, 12:33
  #144 (permalink)  
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So, here's a question!

If a drone is seen operating in breech of CAA regulations would it be acceptable to target it with a [email protected] to ruin any film being taken?
I can hardly see the operator complaining to the CAA about it
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Old 21st Dec 2014, 13:00
  #145 (permalink)  
 
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Herod looks to catapults. How about a crossbow with a tethered bolt. Then the offending article might be able to be pulled back and stripped for spares. Legal advice needed first.
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Old 21st Dec 2014, 13:07
  #146 (permalink)  
 
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There are no (criminal) laws in the UK specific to privacy or aircraft noise/nuisance. There are strictly enforced laws however regarding endangering aircraft and criminal damage. So if a UAV is hovering over your property maintaining the legal separation distance in the airspace that you do not personally own, then criminal law lies in favour of the UAV, as it does for any other aircraft. In civil law there might be some redress but that is, as yet, pretty much untested in the UK courts. Catapults and shotguns may not quite be the answer.

I'm not sure many UAVs carry film these days: a bit last century I think.
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Old 21st Dec 2014, 13:49
  #147 (permalink)  
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I'm not sure many UAVs carry film these days: a bit last century I think.
All are digital, upscale models stream live video wirelessly.
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Old 21st Dec 2014, 14:48
  #148 (permalink)  
 
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Further to my post regarding catapults, I would like to pose a legal question. Suppose a drone is flying over my house, and obviously photographing activity in my backyard. If I shoot it down with a catapult and the act is captured on the drone's camera, what is the legal position? Just asking; no intention of doing it.
You would be guilty of criminal damage. If it fell on someone and killed them you could/would probably be charged with manslaughter. Even if they were flying illegally.

There are rules in the UK. See CAP 722...

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP722.pdf

For example...

The aircraft shall not be flown:

• over or within 150 metres of any congested area of a city, town or settlement; or

• within 50 metres of any person, vessel, vehicle or structure not under the control of the Remote Pilot...
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Old 21st Dec 2014, 18:38
  #149 (permalink)  
 
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CAP 722 is a guidance document: the rules are fully detailed in the Air Navigation Order, CAP 393, particularly Articles 166 and 167 (and 168 if you are considering firing rockets at them).

Articles 73 and 74 refer to endangering an aircraft and operating an aircraft negligently.
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Old 27th Dec 2014, 14:00
  #150 (permalink)  
 
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Further to my post regarding catapults, I would like to pose a legal question. Suppose a drone is flying over my house, and obviously photographing activity in my backyard. If I shoot it down with a catapult and the act is captured on the drone's camera, what is the legal position?
Your evidence that it is an illegally operated drone is only your own opinion. There is always the possibility that the drone is legitimately operated but has been given duff information (map coordinates). That is hardly an offence worthy of shooting down by Joe Public.

Although very unlikely, there is also the possibility that the Police or security services are operating the drone, or it is being operated on their behalf, e.g. looking for the perpetrator of a crime or a missing person. Just suppose the one you hit lost control and caused a car to swerve and hit pedestrians? Is that the fault of the drone pilot?

As Peter G-W says, ANOs regarding the endangering of aircraft apply. You have no control over where the drone will go after hitting it.
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Old 28th Dec 2014, 10:26
  #151 (permalink)  
 
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New rules comming in Australia.

Drone rules to be toughened in new year following several Australian incidents | theage.com.au
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Old 30th Dec 2014, 07:05
  #152 (permalink)  
 
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Fortunately I live in the middle of fields that I own. I also own a shotgun. Job done.
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Old 30th Dec 2014, 08:32
  #153 (permalink)  

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Think you are perhaps deluding yourself Londonman !!
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Old 30th Dec 2014, 08:49
  #154 (permalink)  
 
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How so, El G? I'm a very good shot Don't be confused by my user name. When I say fields I do mean fields. Not Hyde Park !!

On a serious note, I would have thought that these drones, especially the larger ones, were a heaven sent terrorist tool. Just park yourself near the end of the runway being used for take-off. No amount of legislation will prevent that sadly.
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Old 30th Dec 2014, 13:23
  #155 (permalink)  
 
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As someone who is an aviation enthusiast as well as a drone pilot myself, I find some posts in this thread insulting. I imagine a fair few of you are Hobby pilots as well, which means you understand the situation.

It's like me outright saying that every pilot here must be of the same competency of the AF447 crew. It's outright slander and considering the first P in PPRuNe is Professional, I think some here should bow their heads in shame.

There are three very distinct groups under drone pilots - Hobbyists, "Amateur Photographers" and "Hipsters - AKA Morons"

I fly my drone responsibly, as do many. Unfortunately, the minority ruin it for the masses. 2 ways to improve this are startling obvious, yet as history has shown us, we won't act until lives are lost - it actually has a lot of parrallels with the aviation industry as a whole.

  • Make the Bnuc-s course compulsory for model pilots so it covers general flying and not just commercial use, whilst making the cost 50-100 instead of 1500!!!!
  • As suggested here earlier, create a registration system for UAS vehicles. Have an online database with owner details.
  • Hold shops accountable to ensuring customers have said qualification / complete the registration.


Whether you like it or not, UAS / UAVs are here to stay and will only increase in size / performance / lower costs. The fact is, you get morons in all walks of life - be it Drone pilots or Commerical Airline pilots and all other job sectors for that matter. The discussion is better pointing to legalisation and helping the genuine people who are passionate hobby pilots clear the bad reputation of the minority, whilst making the idiots accountable for their poor decision making, which will ultimately get people killed.

Also - to those citing terrorists using these as bombs - Are you actually for real? Yep - that's exactly what they will be used for. After all, over the last 10 years, all of those 1/5 scale petrol cars which are capable of 70mph have been cruising along the M4 bearing the IS Flag on frequent bombing runs.......

Last edited by RiSq; 30th Dec 2014 at 13:38.
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Old 30th Dec 2014, 13:42
  #156 (permalink)  

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RiSq Add another category to your list.

Professional Videographers and Photographers

No doubt that in the hands of the masses, Drones will only become a bigger and bigger pest if left uncontrolled.
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Old 30th Dec 2014, 13:49
  #157 (permalink)  
 
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RiSq

I understand where you are coming from. However, to anyone determined enough none of the suggestions you make will prevent unscrupulous shops selling drones to anyone they feel like - whether or not the customer has any form of formal licence or qualification.

If some people are happy to drive a car without insurance or tax then what makes you think that their counterparts in the drone world won't do exactly the same?

Re your reference to the M4, last time I looked I didn't see any 747's driving down the outside lane !!
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Old 30th Dec 2014, 14:00
  #158 (permalink)  
 
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RiSq Add another category to your list.

Professional Videographers and Photographers

No doubt that in the hands of the masses, Drones will only become a bigger and bigger pest if left uncontrolled.

El G.
El Grifo - I neglected to mention those - you are correct. The likelihood is, they have obtained bnuc-s though as they require it to to fly professionally (Commercially) and to seek CAA approval for flight plans. Of course, you only get the bnuc-s after paying out a small fortune as it stands, but gearing up a similar course or a re-structure of the existing one will drastically improve things.

It doesn't help that one person at the CAA tells you one thing, then another tells you something completely different. The CAA needs to get its house in order.

The fact is - you are always going to get people who bend the law and rules. But rooting out the ones deliberately flouting the rules from those who break them unknowingly is half way to solving the problem - no perfectly, but it will help.

RiSq

I understand where you are coming from. However, to anyone determined enough none of the suggestions you make will prevent unscrupulous shops selling drones to anyone they feel like - whether or not the customer has any form of formal licence or qualification.

If some people are happy to drive a car without insurance or tax then what makes you think that their counterparts in the drone world won't do exactly the same?

Re your reference to the M4, last time I looked I didn't see any 747's driving down the outside lane !!
You are correct - it won't be the all-in-one solution but it would help a lot and half the issue is education. People don't understand the technology which is in their hands half the time.

Having a system in place would help root out the bad apples from the good though.

Ref my M4 Comment: - Lets face it. If a terrorist wants to blow something up, they will. There were loopholes in the security systems of Aviation and they were exploited. Those holes have now been closed to a ridiculous level and in some instances, at a loss to the average joe. Gone are the days where you could go up to the cockpit and have a look around, arguably denying budding pilots of the future that moment of inspiration and awe - something I'm sure most pilots detest themselves (Ok - you get the annoying spolit PAX, but according to my brother-in-law, it evoked a great sense of pride for him seeing the enjoyment it bought)

Put it this way - If I was an insane terrorist wanting to inflict damage on a massive scale - Aircraft would not be on my agenda, when I could freely carry a backpack onto the subway / underground or Waterloo station at peak times and take out 2-widebody craft Passenger manifests amount of people without the hassle. To carry a hefty payload, you are talking Professional grade drones which run into the thousands of pounds. You are then in a niche, which makes it easier to trace back as well. It's a lot of agro and seems a bit cliche. As I said, I don't see RC cars going under buses in Central london blowing them up - why would drones be any different?

The 9/11 style attack worked - We all now live in fear of the unpredictable. That's more affective than killing a thousand people in a Jihadi's eyes.

Last edited by RiSq; 30th Dec 2014 at 14:21.
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Old 30th Dec 2014, 16:30
  #159 (permalink)  
 
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Good points, RiSq

I guess I was thinking more of a drone being sucked into one of the engines. Perhaps not as draconian as one loaded with explosive but the knock-on effect re people's willingness to fly might take a severe dent maybe seeing as how drones can be bought in Maplin's and be perceived by Joe Public as too easy to repeat.
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Old 30th Dec 2014, 21:17
  #160 (permalink)  
 
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RiSq

All your points are all fine and Dandy, but:

Make the Bnuc-s course compulsory for model pilots so it covers general flying and not just commercial use, whilst making the cost 50-100 instead of 1500!!!
Why?? What will that achieve? How will this stop the nutters flying on the LHR approach...?

As suggested here earlier, create a registration system for UAS vehicles. Have an online database with owner details.
Is the LHR nutter really going to bother?

Hold shops accountable to ensuring customers have said qualification / complete the registration.
Many of the vidoes on YT showing flagrant breaches of the ANO are filmed using 'drones' built from components. Google 'Team Black Sheep' for a start - they'll even sell you a kit, posted from outside the UK.
Do you ban/register the sale/import of brushless motors? ESCs? Props? Carbon tube? Nuts and bolts??

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