Spy Plane : Put it in Chinese Museum
Guest
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lavdumper.......well mate .I dont want to say that you are the "typical yank"...but it sounds like to me,that when you were a little boy,..if you didnt get your own way,you picked up your ball and ran home crying,..sounds familiar in this situation...the "facts" as you call it are still to my knowledge being gathered,get a reality check,you yanks are as gulity as anybody,..just look at the cockups of recent concerning your military....bottom line.....when you mess with the bull...you have to take the horns once in a while......
Guest
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Pakeha-boy,
Very intelligent response. It's great to see that this forum can display intelligent, logical discussions devoid of childish responses.
No, your "boyhood" analogy does not apply in this case. However, I can think of a similar one that does apply - a schoolyard bully tries to push a defenseless, slow fat kid around because he, himself, is slimmer, faster, better equipped (maybe he has a gun with him) and is more cocky. Given his cocky nature, he goes too far and ends up injuring the non-threatening fat kid. Is that easy enough for you to understand, Pakeha-boy - or are you just an idiot? (P3 = fat kid)
Again, it is easy for you and Icarus and others to "cloud" the issue by injecting Anti-American sentiments into this post - it's the dumb-man's approach because it is not intellectually taxing. Yeah, it's easy to slam America whenever you can't support your own argument logically. Prove to us, Pakeha-boy, just how intellectually-challenged you are and add some additional anti-American remarks...
For the last time - Wang Wei was reckless (cannot be refuted because of an "established" history) and because of his actions alone, a collision resulted causing the loss of his life. The P3 was on autopilot and had no reason to be provokative - it was leaving the area.
Pakeha-boy and Icarus - do us all a favor, leave your pedantic analogies and Anti-American sentiments at home and try to apply some logic to the situation.
Your "Yank" reference demonstrates your Anti-American views. Perhaps your country could do without some of our American foreign aide ($) or protection or military hardware or ... the list goes on. I am indifferent about being an American until I hear this type of crap.
Wang Wei was reckless and completely 100% responsible. It may have been an "accident," but his recklessness DIRECTLY contributed to the collision - that is the point. Case closed.
Very intelligent response. It's great to see that this forum can display intelligent, logical discussions devoid of childish responses.
No, your "boyhood" analogy does not apply in this case. However, I can think of a similar one that does apply - a schoolyard bully tries to push a defenseless, slow fat kid around because he, himself, is slimmer, faster, better equipped (maybe he has a gun with him) and is more cocky. Given his cocky nature, he goes too far and ends up injuring the non-threatening fat kid. Is that easy enough for you to understand, Pakeha-boy - or are you just an idiot? (P3 = fat kid)
Again, it is easy for you and Icarus and others to "cloud" the issue by injecting Anti-American sentiments into this post - it's the dumb-man's approach because it is not intellectually taxing. Yeah, it's easy to slam America whenever you can't support your own argument logically. Prove to us, Pakeha-boy, just how intellectually-challenged you are and add some additional anti-American remarks...
For the last time - Wang Wei was reckless (cannot be refuted because of an "established" history) and because of his actions alone, a collision resulted causing the loss of his life. The P3 was on autopilot and had no reason to be provokative - it was leaving the area.
Pakeha-boy and Icarus - do us all a favor, leave your pedantic analogies and Anti-American sentiments at home and try to apply some logic to the situation.
Your "Yank" reference demonstrates your Anti-American views. Perhaps your country could do without some of our American foreign aide ($) or protection or military hardware or ... the list goes on. I am indifferent about being an American until I hear this type of crap.
Wang Wei was reckless and completely 100% responsible. It may have been an "accident," but his recklessness DIRECTLY contributed to the collision - that is the point. Case closed.
Guest
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It is sad that the issues become personal, but really that is true about this incident from the start. It matters not one bit what the US thinks about the facts of the case; it only matters what China thinks, since their interpretation will determine their future actions. If they think they drew blood (and they have the airplane, and they have stopped the US "Spy" flights, at least temporarily) they will be more aggressive in the future. Their ambassador in Washington warned the US last week that any future reconnaisance flights would face "great danger", and from what they are saying since, that is probably true. It matters not that the US says they did not apologise: They did in spirit if not in fact, and only to recover a crew that were being treated as guests for only eleven days! Can't help but think that the priorities are wrong. My opinion, one of little importance I agree, is that the expression of "very sorry" was wrong, and although it got the crew home, it is going to cost way out of proportion in the future. I hope I am wrong.
I also take an interest in the America bashing, since even though I am not a citizen of that wonderful country, my wife and 4 children are. We often spar in the same vein, but I cannot help but notice that she is thoroughly indoctrinated by the US media, and also from her schooling there, to accept verbatim everything the corrupt (possibly the most corrupt in the world?) government tells her.
For example (and I could go on all day,but that would not be productive) Lava mentioned foreign aid. What a joke. The US gives less than 1% of GDP,way less than every other developed country, more than 60% of this goes to two countries in the Middle East, and all of it goes with strings attached. The US is famous for picking on smaller countries, by way of trade restrictions such as tariffs, quotas, anti-dumping regulations and so on, costing the smaller countries (AUS,NZ, Brazil etc) billions. They regularly dump wheat, subsidised by the US taxpayer, into markets that smaller countries rely on for their very existence, serving only to damage their allies and to gain nothing themselves. Negative foreign aid, perhaps? But the major countries, that perhaps deserve such treatment, are kow-towed to. China is only taking advantage of a weakness. Why not?
So brace yourselves for more!
I also take an interest in the America bashing, since even though I am not a citizen of that wonderful country, my wife and 4 children are. We often spar in the same vein, but I cannot help but notice that she is thoroughly indoctrinated by the US media, and also from her schooling there, to accept verbatim everything the corrupt (possibly the most corrupt in the world?) government tells her.
For example (and I could go on all day,but that would not be productive) Lava mentioned foreign aid. What a joke. The US gives less than 1% of GDP,way less than every other developed country, more than 60% of this goes to two countries in the Middle East, and all of it goes with strings attached. The US is famous for picking on smaller countries, by way of trade restrictions such as tariffs, quotas, anti-dumping regulations and so on, costing the smaller countries (AUS,NZ, Brazil etc) billions. They regularly dump wheat, subsidised by the US taxpayer, into markets that smaller countries rely on for their very existence, serving only to damage their allies and to gain nothing themselves. Negative foreign aid, perhaps? But the major countries, that perhaps deserve such treatment, are kow-towed to. China is only taking advantage of a weakness. Why not?
So brace yourselves for more!
Guest
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Hi guys
Believe it or not guys, but I am a big fan of USA, I like americans people, and I am glad your parents landed on the Normandy beaches this morning in June 1944 ...
But I am astonished by th total lack of will to admit that USA can cockup here and there.
I know that the word "auto-critic" was heavily employed by the communists during the cold war, but it can be a good idea, from time to times to reckon his own weaknesses or failures.
NOT a single post from you yanks, gives this feeling. You are so blinded by your arrogance (which you confuse with patriotism) that you cannot imagine a different reality than the one broadcasted by CNN.
If you look back at your posts, you will read that you are basically telling exactly the same story, have seen exactly the same videotape (and therefore think you know personnaly the reckless chinese pilot) and that you are all 100 % sure of what you are believing (and not especially knowing) I totally agree that autocratic systems, with government controlled TV, and "army's always right" attitude is hopeless and dangerous ...but what about at TV like CNN which is controlled by money ? Are you sure the the CNN big boss want to talk about an American cockup ? or does he prefer to show the "evil" chinese pilot, endangering the good'ol US crew ?
You are all spitting on China , but your country is spending billions of dollars to spy on its own allies ! I am sure you know that the NSA is employing 200 000 persons on that purpose ! Of course I am not complaining of the peacekeeping attitude of USA. But won't you agree with me that ,potentiallly, a paranoïd US president, controlling TV (by money) and therefore public opinion, could well hide the truth and set up a war where he wants to ?
Remember ? when Bill Clinton was in trouble with Monica ? He dropped some bombs on innocent irakian people to distract the public from Kenneth Star's lawsuit. Doesn't it ring up a bell to you ?
Do you know that USA is killing more people, legally, than Iran ?
C'mon guys ! we are not living in a perfect world.
I am french, I am not taking any pride or shame for that, but I admit the mistakes of french army, government and whatever french cockup you can imagine. It's obviously not the case of ppruners from a so-called "civilised country" Neither do they have sense of humor.
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[email protected]
"Flying is not dangerous, crashing is"
Believe it or not guys, but I am a big fan of USA, I like americans people, and I am glad your parents landed on the Normandy beaches this morning in June 1944 ...
But I am astonished by th total lack of will to admit that USA can cockup here and there.
I know that the word "auto-critic" was heavily employed by the communists during the cold war, but it can be a good idea, from time to times to reckon his own weaknesses or failures.
NOT a single post from you yanks, gives this feeling. You are so blinded by your arrogance (which you confuse with patriotism) that you cannot imagine a different reality than the one broadcasted by CNN.
If you look back at your posts, you will read that you are basically telling exactly the same story, have seen exactly the same videotape (and therefore think you know personnaly the reckless chinese pilot) and that you are all 100 % sure of what you are believing (and not especially knowing) I totally agree that autocratic systems, with government controlled TV, and "army's always right" attitude is hopeless and dangerous ...but what about at TV like CNN which is controlled by money ? Are you sure the the CNN big boss want to talk about an American cockup ? or does he prefer to show the "evil" chinese pilot, endangering the good'ol US crew ?
You are all spitting on China , but your country is spending billions of dollars to spy on its own allies ! I am sure you know that the NSA is employing 200 000 persons on that purpose ! Of course I am not complaining of the peacekeeping attitude of USA. But won't you agree with me that ,potentiallly, a paranoïd US president, controlling TV (by money) and therefore public opinion, could well hide the truth and set up a war where he wants to ?
Remember ? when Bill Clinton was in trouble with Monica ? He dropped some bombs on innocent irakian people to distract the public from Kenneth Star's lawsuit. Doesn't it ring up a bell to you ?
Do you know that USA is killing more people, legally, than Iran ?
C'mon guys ! we are not living in a perfect world.
I am french, I am not taking any pride or shame for that, but I admit the mistakes of french army, government and whatever french cockup you can imagine. It's obviously not the case of ppruners from a so-called "civilised country" Neither do they have sense of humor.
------------------
[email protected]
"Flying is not dangerous, crashing is"
Guest
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Kifis and Icarus and the Italian sounding frenchman, an antipodean with a secret hankering to be the curator of said Chinese museum,with a plane spotting anorak viewer with a Ghadafi 'green book' carrying Frenchman jostling to be in on the visit. Sorry guys the PROC hero's exhibit is still to be dredged up from whence it fell. We do have his email adress somwhere though. I think he got close enough for it to be read.
Pity about his flying skills they apparently didn't live up to his own heroic expectations, his moment of truth would seem to have been arrived at in the air where he became alive to their limitations,if only briefly.
Pity about his flying skills they apparently didn't live up to his own heroic expectations, his moment of truth would seem to have been arrived at in the air where he became alive to their limitations,if only briefly.
Guest
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Folks, this one just isn't going away, is it?
I'd like to make some comments -- probably too long.
There is deep emotion on both sides, and although you know by my posts here and on the original thread which I started about the downing of the EP-3, there rapidly appeared a special dislike for Americans in many of the postings.
Those in these posts attack America with vengeance, with one poster calling the U.S. the most corrupt government in the world. He admits he's not an American. He does not live in America. How would he know?
By my "Colonial" spelling, I guess you know by now that I am an American. Some of you may want to stop reading right now, because your bile is starting to work itself upward.
For those that want to continue, I live and work in Latvia, an Eastern European country. I don't want to get sued, nor do I want PPruNe to get sued, so let it suffice for me to say that there are a number of countries they should send American government employees, not to teach democracy and Western accounting skills, but to learn how to rip off their own people. It would be an eye-opener.
Just to show you how ridiculous this thread has become, I've seen anti-Americans posting reactions to a CNN story as the Gospel truth, but the moment CNN showed the videos of the Chinese interceptors within feet of a EP-3, they immediately lambasted CNN for favoring America. These same videos have been shown on mostly all world TV networks (except Chinese, North Korean and other sympathizing bedfellows). Where is the objectivity?
Fighter jocks tend to be aggressive. If they were passive, they'd be dead right away in a dog fight. However, there is a thin line drawn between being aggressive and getting the adrenalin pumped up to the point where you can't function properly or logically, anymore.
Someone mentioned that the United States is selling grain to third world countries which stymies the local growing economy because they can't compete.
So why don't they grow wheat/barley/oats -- any kind of grain -- in Ethiopia, Somalia, Sudan? Quite the opposite. The U.S. and other Western countries GIVE grain to these countries FOR FREE to keep people alive, because their own corrupt system is so tribal clan oriented that it refuses to even give first aid to a rival clan. They could drill for water. Western relief agencies have and succeeded.
Humanitarian air drop planes have been shot down and shot at too many times. My hats off to these daring pilots to even think about putting their lives at risk and extending a helping hand to save these starving people.
Do we even have to get into the governments of Central and South America and most governments in Asia, the latest being border fights between Bangla Desh and India. How about those Indonesian disputes. How many have been killed there because of the warlords. Again I can go on and on.
Spying EP-3s. Also, many of you that are lambasting the U.S. don't know that much of the information gathered on these fly-bys are shared by the Americans with the British, French, Germans, Australians, New Zealanders, Japanese, Koreans... Do I need to go on? Much of this information is making, or will make, your life better in the future, it is hoped, because we need to know what the Chinese are planning for the future.
As far as your reference to the U.S. as being the aggressor, think back a few years. What swarming hordes unexpectedly crossed international boundaries (the 38th parallel) to invade Korea and tried to take the whole peninsula during the Korean War. A lot of Allied soldiers died because of that -- some of them may be your fathers -- and interestingly enough, percentage wise, Turkey suffered the highest amount of casualties. What country started a mini-war with Russia in the 60s.
And during the Cultural Revolution, there were wholesale arrests of the intelligensia and executions, just to protect a one man's idea of an autocratic and corrupt system and a farcical little "Red Book." Do you really thing the system has changed so much?
I'm not advocating breaking relations with China. Far from it. The West needs the Chinese as they need the West, because there is billions of billions of foreign currency flowing through China. If that stops, we're really in big s*it.
What I'm saying is this. Think carefully who you're backing. I think the new American administration has been handling this very carefully and very correctly. Remember Japan in the 30s and the early 40s? One country, two countries, three countries, four. And the list goes on.
"Where the hell are the Americans to help us out of this mess?" they said at that time. They came. And they probably will come again.
I'd like to make some comments -- probably too long.
There is deep emotion on both sides, and although you know by my posts here and on the original thread which I started about the downing of the EP-3, there rapidly appeared a special dislike for Americans in many of the postings.
Those in these posts attack America with vengeance, with one poster calling the U.S. the most corrupt government in the world. He admits he's not an American. He does not live in America. How would he know?
By my "Colonial" spelling, I guess you know by now that I am an American. Some of you may want to stop reading right now, because your bile is starting to work itself upward.
For those that want to continue, I live and work in Latvia, an Eastern European country. I don't want to get sued, nor do I want PPruNe to get sued, so let it suffice for me to say that there are a number of countries they should send American government employees, not to teach democracy and Western accounting skills, but to learn how to rip off their own people. It would be an eye-opener.
Just to show you how ridiculous this thread has become, I've seen anti-Americans posting reactions to a CNN story as the Gospel truth, but the moment CNN showed the videos of the Chinese interceptors within feet of a EP-3, they immediately lambasted CNN for favoring America. These same videos have been shown on mostly all world TV networks (except Chinese, North Korean and other sympathizing bedfellows). Where is the objectivity?
Fighter jocks tend to be aggressive. If they were passive, they'd be dead right away in a dog fight. However, there is a thin line drawn between being aggressive and getting the adrenalin pumped up to the point where you can't function properly or logically, anymore.
Someone mentioned that the United States is selling grain to third world countries which stymies the local growing economy because they can't compete.
So why don't they grow wheat/barley/oats -- any kind of grain -- in Ethiopia, Somalia, Sudan? Quite the opposite. The U.S. and other Western countries GIVE grain to these countries FOR FREE to keep people alive, because their own corrupt system is so tribal clan oriented that it refuses to even give first aid to a rival clan. They could drill for water. Western relief agencies have and succeeded.
Humanitarian air drop planes have been shot down and shot at too many times. My hats off to these daring pilots to even think about putting their lives at risk and extending a helping hand to save these starving people.
Do we even have to get into the governments of Central and South America and most governments in Asia, the latest being border fights between Bangla Desh and India. How about those Indonesian disputes. How many have been killed there because of the warlords. Again I can go on and on.
Spying EP-3s. Also, many of you that are lambasting the U.S. don't know that much of the information gathered on these fly-bys are shared by the Americans with the British, French, Germans, Australians, New Zealanders, Japanese, Koreans... Do I need to go on? Much of this information is making, or will make, your life better in the future, it is hoped, because we need to know what the Chinese are planning for the future.
As far as your reference to the U.S. as being the aggressor, think back a few years. What swarming hordes unexpectedly crossed international boundaries (the 38th parallel) to invade Korea and tried to take the whole peninsula during the Korean War. A lot of Allied soldiers died because of that -- some of them may be your fathers -- and interestingly enough, percentage wise, Turkey suffered the highest amount of casualties. What country started a mini-war with Russia in the 60s.
And during the Cultural Revolution, there were wholesale arrests of the intelligensia and executions, just to protect a one man's idea of an autocratic and corrupt system and a farcical little "Red Book." Do you really thing the system has changed so much?
I'm not advocating breaking relations with China. Far from it. The West needs the Chinese as they need the West, because there is billions of billions of foreign currency flowing through China. If that stops, we're really in big s*it.
What I'm saying is this. Think carefully who you're backing. I think the new American administration has been handling this very carefully and very correctly. Remember Japan in the 30s and the early 40s? One country, two countries, three countries, four. And the list goes on.
"Where the hell are the Americans to help us out of this mess?" they said at that time. They came. And they probably will come again.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Latvia, thanks for that timely and well considered reality check. There seem to be far too many folks here willing to blindly accept the irrational blethrings of a criminally pariah state and instead rubbish the word of the (historically trustworthy)nation that was instrumental in ensuring the security of the free world since 1917.
"Shame, Shame, Shame"
Folks, use a little logic. Open eyes , engage brain! And think twice (if you can) before biting the hand that feeds and protects you...
Or move to China if you think they are so perfect, which might be better for us all.
"Shame, Shame, Shame"
Folks, use a little logic. Open eyes , engage brain! And think twice (if you can) before biting the hand that feeds and protects you...
Or move to China if you think they are so perfect, which might be better for us all.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Latvia:
Concur 100%.
As I said before, many ppruners can refrain from speculating on the cause of the accidents such as GF072, the Shorts 360, SQ006, etc, but they just can't seem to be able to do it this time. PLEASE, DO NOT SPECULATE. We don't know 100% who is right and who is wrong until proven by either side.
Concur 100%.
As I said before, many ppruners can refrain from speculating on the cause of the accidents such as GF072, the Shorts 360, SQ006, etc, but they just can't seem to be able to do it this time. PLEASE, DO NOT SPECULATE. We don't know 100% who is right and who is wrong until proven by either side.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Hi guys, just the new kid in the chat.
After flying for 5 years in Asian countries, I've learned that, of all of them, the chinese, after inventing the kyte 5,000 years ago (very long ago,ok!) their aviation knowledge has evolved very slowly. Somebody has mentioned about the international laws, airmanship,etc,and the truth is that the only law is what their superiors have instructed them to do. Good airmanship is fly from A to B, don't even think of going to C,you can lose face and won't be promoted.
Mr. Kifis said that the other guys have no sense of patriotism,regarding China, I believe there is a confusion. I don't cosnsider "patriotism" to follow a bunch of dictators, with Mercedes Benz (nice communism!), repressing everyone who even "thinks" that the sistem should change,because,they say, is against the PR of China (to be read: People Repressed of China).
What I'm sure of is that I would not worship a Jet fifhter Pilot who was brought down by a P3 on autopilot.
On the other hand,What is the USA trying to do? Don't they have enough problems at home,the local people are more concerned about their problems than spying other countries. I know that there are a lot of economic interests from USA in China, but couldn't them be moved to other more grateful countries,like Africa,or even SouthAmerica and really show if the chinese can survive alone.
It has just been a thought, I'm in for the Aviation Safety.
After flying for 5 years in Asian countries, I've learned that, of all of them, the chinese, after inventing the kyte 5,000 years ago (very long ago,ok!) their aviation knowledge has evolved very slowly. Somebody has mentioned about the international laws, airmanship,etc,and the truth is that the only law is what their superiors have instructed them to do. Good airmanship is fly from A to B, don't even think of going to C,you can lose face and won't be promoted.
Mr. Kifis said that the other guys have no sense of patriotism,regarding China, I believe there is a confusion. I don't cosnsider "patriotism" to follow a bunch of dictators, with Mercedes Benz (nice communism!), repressing everyone who even "thinks" that the sistem should change,because,they say, is against the PR of China (to be read: People Repressed of China).
What I'm sure of is that I would not worship a Jet fifhter Pilot who was brought down by a P3 on autopilot.
On the other hand,What is the USA trying to do? Don't they have enough problems at home,the local people are more concerned about their problems than spying other countries. I know that there are a lot of economic interests from USA in China, but couldn't them be moved to other more grateful countries,like Africa,or even SouthAmerica and really show if the chinese can survive alone.
It has just been a thought, I'm in for the Aviation Safety.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Alright, I'll take a crack at this. BTW, I'm an American and not ashamed to be one. I'm going to take a little different tack on this.
I generally agree that the pilot at fault in the collision is most likely Wang Wei. That qualified conclusion (for me) comes from the evidence that's available from the media, particularly the videos of his past aggressive flying on previous intercepts. Whether the man in the video is Wang Wei or not is almost beside the point, because the video demonstrates a pattern of aggressive conduct engaged in by the intercepting Chinese pilots. So from a certain point of view it might even be worse if the pilot in the videos was NOT Wang Wei.
And why on earth an American pilot would "ram" another aircraft while on duty station and risk losing the intelligence package he and his colleagues had collected, risk damaging his aircraft well over a thousand miles from his base, risk the lives of his crew, and risk having to ditch or make an emergency landing on Chinese soil, is quite beyond my comprehension. In the worse case, the EP-3 might have hit the Chinese fighter accidentally, and the US pilot's only fault might have been making a mistake in manuvering.
So let's say for the sake of argument that the "real truth" of who caused the collision never becomes known with a high degree of certainty, since from a "hard facts" perpective that's really where we are now. What then do you make of the conduct of the Chinese, because I think that's really what's at issue here?
I hate to say this, but I'm fairly certain that the US is at all times gathering some degree of intelligence on every nation in the world. I'm sure that information includes military capability, economic capability, political stability, and what political "currents" or "moods" happen to be flowing in any given nation at any given time. I'm also certain that many other nations also engage in this practice to some degree or another. The central purpose for this activity, is that if your nation (like mine) is interested in playing a role in the world as a peacekeeper, then you constantly need information like this on those who might disturb the peace. To me the need for this practice is obvious.
First, it's well known that the Chinese DO NOT like the intelligence flights off their coast. The bottom line is that those flights are legal, whether the Chinese like it or not. They are concerned about Taiwan and don't like the position of the US on the Taiwan matter. To be honest the whole issue of Taiwan is a little too murky for me, so I won't pretend to understand it clearly. It is however my opinion that the Chinese have been trying to intimidate the US into stopping these flights for months. I'm also pretty sure that the flights are collecting information on military and other communications activity related to Taiwan.
Second, the Chinese reaction to the collision speaks volumes, and to me this is really the important issue. I don't think the collision was planned, but I'm convinced the Chinese saw the collision and the emergency landing as an opportunity to put pressure on the US to stop these flights. Their current threats about possible harm to future flights only deepens my conviction of this.
Third, the stated "reason" for holding the aircrew and the aircraft was to conduct an "investigation" into the cause of the collision. Hypocritically at the same time, they made Wang Wei a hero (as Communists or a nation with that background, glorify heros is normally done for political purposes), claimed the US plane rammed Wei's plane, and then demanded an apology from the US for causing the collision. Of course they did all of this while pretending to be conducting an "investigation" into the cause of the accident, as the pretense for holding the plane and crew. Give me a break.
Then when they got the apology (so they thought) they released the crew. Then when it became clear that the "apology" was not in fact an admission of guilt or cause in the collision, the Chinese were beside themselves and just couldn't understand why the US wouldn't accept the blame for the collision. I mean, how do we know the collision was our fault?
I personally think the whole affair has been an attempt by the Chinese to create an international incident so "embarrassing" to the US, that the US would be forced to stop the intelligence flights off the Chinese coast. But in reality, I think it's backfired on the Chinese.
I have more thoughts, but I'll stop here...
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Safe flying to you...
I generally agree that the pilot at fault in the collision is most likely Wang Wei. That qualified conclusion (for me) comes from the evidence that's available from the media, particularly the videos of his past aggressive flying on previous intercepts. Whether the man in the video is Wang Wei or not is almost beside the point, because the video demonstrates a pattern of aggressive conduct engaged in by the intercepting Chinese pilots. So from a certain point of view it might even be worse if the pilot in the videos was NOT Wang Wei.
And why on earth an American pilot would "ram" another aircraft while on duty station and risk losing the intelligence package he and his colleagues had collected, risk damaging his aircraft well over a thousand miles from his base, risk the lives of his crew, and risk having to ditch or make an emergency landing on Chinese soil, is quite beyond my comprehension. In the worse case, the EP-3 might have hit the Chinese fighter accidentally, and the US pilot's only fault might have been making a mistake in manuvering.
So let's say for the sake of argument that the "real truth" of who caused the collision never becomes known with a high degree of certainty, since from a "hard facts" perpective that's really where we are now. What then do you make of the conduct of the Chinese, because I think that's really what's at issue here?
I hate to say this, but I'm fairly certain that the US is at all times gathering some degree of intelligence on every nation in the world. I'm sure that information includes military capability, economic capability, political stability, and what political "currents" or "moods" happen to be flowing in any given nation at any given time. I'm also certain that many other nations also engage in this practice to some degree or another. The central purpose for this activity, is that if your nation (like mine) is interested in playing a role in the world as a peacekeeper, then you constantly need information like this on those who might disturb the peace. To me the need for this practice is obvious.
First, it's well known that the Chinese DO NOT like the intelligence flights off their coast. The bottom line is that those flights are legal, whether the Chinese like it or not. They are concerned about Taiwan and don't like the position of the US on the Taiwan matter. To be honest the whole issue of Taiwan is a little too murky for me, so I won't pretend to understand it clearly. It is however my opinion that the Chinese have been trying to intimidate the US into stopping these flights for months. I'm also pretty sure that the flights are collecting information on military and other communications activity related to Taiwan.
Second, the Chinese reaction to the collision speaks volumes, and to me this is really the important issue. I don't think the collision was planned, but I'm convinced the Chinese saw the collision and the emergency landing as an opportunity to put pressure on the US to stop these flights. Their current threats about possible harm to future flights only deepens my conviction of this.
Third, the stated "reason" for holding the aircrew and the aircraft was to conduct an "investigation" into the cause of the collision. Hypocritically at the same time, they made Wang Wei a hero (as Communists or a nation with that background, glorify heros is normally done for political purposes), claimed the US plane rammed Wei's plane, and then demanded an apology from the US for causing the collision. Of course they did all of this while pretending to be conducting an "investigation" into the cause of the accident, as the pretense for holding the plane and crew. Give me a break.
Then when they got the apology (so they thought) they released the crew. Then when it became clear that the "apology" was not in fact an admission of guilt or cause in the collision, the Chinese were beside themselves and just couldn't understand why the US wouldn't accept the blame for the collision. I mean, how do we know the collision was our fault?
I personally think the whole affair has been an attempt by the Chinese to create an international incident so "embarrassing" to the US, that the US would be forced to stop the intelligence flights off the Chinese coast. But in reality, I think it's backfired on the Chinese.
I have more thoughts, but I'll stop here...
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Safe flying to you...
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I read my last post and I am sorry that I said the US govt was the most corrupt in the world. Obviously there are worse. I meant it only to the extent that they claim to be honest and are in fact typically polititians, and in that vein they are among the worst. Not necessarily corrupt, but less-than-honest.
I do live in the US, and I would love to have a discussion with interested parties about the faults and such, but this is not the place for that.
I also believe that no matter whether the P3 hit the F8 or not, the accident was the fault of the Chinese pilot, who did the intercept, and had the clear responsibility to remain clear of the intercepted airplane, no matter what maneuvers he was carrying out. It is easy to see that the F8 could have come up from below, with a reducing airspeed, and struck the wing and propeller just as the Chinese video of the damage shows. It would still be his fault and weaseling out of that is only to be expected.
I went on at length about the wheat thing (which I don't expect any American to understand) simply because Lava brought up the concept of foreign aid, and the subject is one that demonstrates how the US is out of touch with the feelings of the rest of the world. In its turn, this explains a lot of the anti-American attitudes out there, and is partly the reason for the incident in the first place.
Sorry if I brought the tone down.
I do live in the US, and I would love to have a discussion with interested parties about the faults and such, but this is not the place for that.
I also believe that no matter whether the P3 hit the F8 or not, the accident was the fault of the Chinese pilot, who did the intercept, and had the clear responsibility to remain clear of the intercepted airplane, no matter what maneuvers he was carrying out. It is easy to see that the F8 could have come up from below, with a reducing airspeed, and struck the wing and propeller just as the Chinese video of the damage shows. It would still be his fault and weaseling out of that is only to be expected.
I went on at length about the wheat thing (which I don't expect any American to understand) simply because Lava brought up the concept of foreign aid, and the subject is one that demonstrates how the US is out of touch with the feelings of the rest of the world. In its turn, this explains a lot of the anti-American attitudes out there, and is partly the reason for the incident in the first place.
Sorry if I brought the tone down.
Guest
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bunyip,
I respect your last posting, but I can't imagine what you call "the wheat thing" has anything to do with the EP-3 incident over international waters off China?
I know I'm being sarcastic, but do you infer that the the EP-3 was attempting to dump sacks of wheat for the poor Chinese people on Hainan island. That's a little far fetched, I believe, even for the Chinese.
Look, if you want to talk about wheat -- E-mail me. I don't hold it a secret who I am.
Cheers,
I respect your last posting, but I can't imagine what you call "the wheat thing" has anything to do with the EP-3 incident over international waters off China?
I know I'm being sarcastic, but do you infer that the the EP-3 was attempting to dump sacks of wheat for the poor Chinese people on Hainan island. That's a little far fetched, I believe, even for the Chinese.
Look, if you want to talk about wheat -- E-mail me. I don't hold it a secret who I am.
Cheers,
Guest
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Just a point folks,
I think you are confusing being anti-american and having ,what we call in France,"l'esprit critique" (critic spirit )
It's typical from US Ppruner to violently react to criticism.
I won"t be surprised to read a new thread in few days "should we ban anti-american posts from pprune ?" or whatever crap of same style ...
As many of you said, you can engage your brain and look around you.
Is your country so clean and so nice ?, no homeless people around? no racism over there ?
Do you really think that foreign politic is cleaner or troubleless ? do you really think there are the good (USA) and the evil (every other country not saying "USA is great")
When you guys are talking about Human Factors on different threads, you seem to all admit that a human error is, more likely to be the reason of a Crash or incident up there, but when an US Navy crew is involved, no matter the facts available (nearly nothing) you are all pissing on the chinese pilot; GUILTY GUILTY GULTY , 100% GUILTY !
What the f***k do you know about it ? a Video from CNN ? some clue given by the pentagon or other uncontrolled agency ?
Can't you admit it can be a combination of factors, politic and human, US and Chinese ?
I am not anti-american, neither am I a stubborn supporter of China, I am human ....and french
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[email protected]
"Flying is not dangerous, crashing is"
I think you are confusing being anti-american and having ,what we call in France,"l'esprit critique" (critic spirit )
It's typical from US Ppruner to violently react to criticism.
I won"t be surprised to read a new thread in few days "should we ban anti-american posts from pprune ?" or whatever crap of same style ...
As many of you said, you can engage your brain and look around you.
Is your country so clean and so nice ?, no homeless people around? no racism over there ?
Do you really think that foreign politic is cleaner or troubleless ? do you really think there are the good (USA) and the evil (every other country not saying "USA is great")
When you guys are talking about Human Factors on different threads, you seem to all admit that a human error is, more likely to be the reason of a Crash or incident up there, but when an US Navy crew is involved, no matter the facts available (nearly nothing) you are all pissing on the chinese pilot; GUILTY GUILTY GULTY , 100% GUILTY !
What the f***k do you know about it ? a Video from CNN ? some clue given by the pentagon or other uncontrolled agency ?
Can't you admit it can be a combination of factors, politic and human, US and Chinese ?
I am not anti-american, neither am I a stubborn supporter of China, I am human ....and french
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[email protected]
"Flying is not dangerous, crashing is"
Guest
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PorcoRosso,
Thank you for your post. Right off the bat, my friend, why do all French things have to be French things. What happened to "Le Hamburger," etc. OK, so that's done with, let's carry on to the substance of the story.
OK, pal, let's look at the homeless and the racism going around. You guys have a city called Mareilles. Right? Do I need to talk about the homeless or the racism that's going around. I've been there and I've seen it. Why the race riots?
Corruption. How many provicial government heads or staff have not been indicted in France over the last five years?
I'm not saying that the U.S. is clouded in a white sheet. We have our problems, too, including Monica. Your president shacks up regularly with all his national and international secrets and no one gives a sh*t in France.
Regarding the human error in the EP-3 incident, according to all the records available at this time, unless the Chinese had a gun camara going at the time and it is recoverable, the U.S. plane was flying straight and level.
You give us the "GUILTY, GUILTY GUILTY," thing. If you're a pilot, you will know that for the EP-3 to make a sudden move left/right it would take several seconds to start that move, while the interceptor could do it in in a second. So, stop right there.
To answer your last statement, yes, I believe it was a pure accident. The Chinese pilot did not want to crash into the U.S. plane, but, unfortunately, due to his misjudgement, it happened.
Thank you for your post. Right off the bat, my friend, why do all French things have to be French things. What happened to "Le Hamburger," etc. OK, so that's done with, let's carry on to the substance of the story.
OK, pal, let's look at the homeless and the racism going around. You guys have a city called Mareilles. Right? Do I need to talk about the homeless or the racism that's going around. I've been there and I've seen it. Why the race riots?
Corruption. How many provicial government heads or staff have not been indicted in France over the last five years?
I'm not saying that the U.S. is clouded in a white sheet. We have our problems, too, including Monica. Your president shacks up regularly with all his national and international secrets and no one gives a sh*t in France.
Regarding the human error in the EP-3 incident, according to all the records available at this time, unless the Chinese had a gun camara going at the time and it is recoverable, the U.S. plane was flying straight and level.
You give us the "GUILTY, GUILTY GUILTY," thing. If you're a pilot, you will know that for the EP-3 to make a sudden move left/right it would take several seconds to start that move, while the interceptor could do it in in a second. So, stop right there.
To answer your last statement, yes, I believe it was a pure accident. The Chinese pilot did not want to crash into the U.S. plane, but, unfortunately, due to his misjudgement, it happened.
Guest
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Someone said that the US is such a great place to live,
Some facts:
13% of the US live below the poverty line 10% in China.
Inflation is almost twice in the US as in China.
The chance of being a victim of violent crime is considerably greater in the US than China.
US-China trade deficit is around $53Billion (i,e, the Chinese do better out of the trade relationship). So perhaps China needs the US more than vice-versa, but that doesn;t expalin the attitudes of China to the US though does it?!
The US spends almost 25 times as much on military spending as the Chinese at $277Billion per annum!!. Which is almost 75% the total GDP of Australia!
If it was definitely the Chinese at fault here, surely the US would have irrefutable proof - CVR/FDR, other electronic information
- after all this was a heavily loaded spy-plane! They seem awful quite about what really happened for a Country that probably has all the data necessary to prove who did what to who and when; most of the data collected I assume is not just stored on the EP-3 but transmitted real-time back home (Pentagon computers etc etc).
Some facts:
13% of the US live below the poverty line 10% in China.
Inflation is almost twice in the US as in China.
The chance of being a victim of violent crime is considerably greater in the US than China.
US-China trade deficit is around $53Billion (i,e, the Chinese do better out of the trade relationship). So perhaps China needs the US more than vice-versa, but that doesn;t expalin the attitudes of China to the US though does it?!
The US spends almost 25 times as much on military spending as the Chinese at $277Billion per annum!!. Which is almost 75% the total GDP of Australia!
If it was definitely the Chinese at fault here, surely the US would have irrefutable proof - CVR/FDR, other electronic information
- after all this was a heavily loaded spy-plane! They seem awful quite about what really happened for a Country that probably has all the data necessary to prove who did what to who and when; most of the data collected I assume is not just stored on the EP-3 but transmitted real-time back home (Pentagon computers etc etc).
Guest
Posts: n/a
PorcoRosso has presented you vocal and defensive Americans with some intelligent and indisputable facts. Why is it that not one of you will answer or even comment on his assertion that any nation is capable of messing things up? If individuals can't be fair and admit this is possible then what chance has your country got when it comes to honestly presenting the big picture.
KIFIS
KIFIS