Spy Plane : Put it in Chinese Museum
Guest
Posts: n/a
Guys, Nobody will win this argument. America, to many Ppruners, is close to the embodiment of evil, and all other countries are bastions of civility, racial harmony, and good will to all. It seems many here weren't paying attention in their history classes, I seem to remember quite a few small incidents brought about by our "enlightened Breatheren" across the pond,
the Top Ten list to include:
World War 1, couple of million dead
World war 2, Ditto times 2
the Crusades
the Irish famines
The Holocaust, of which many of our French "Buddies" helped along with, so much for racial harmony
Kosovo
Bosnia, to be more current
Aren't the Communists still a party in France, and Italy..so much for enlightenment
Also, Maybe the US should pull out of all the military treaties and pacts we have, and I'll see the French use our satellites, GPS, and Intel, like the EP-3 was collecting, to fight their opponents...NOT
If we stopped buying Mercedes and BMW's the companies may go Bankrupt...Ditto with Airbus..
Stop your whining and jealousy, I don't see hoards of people lining up on your shores trying to get in...Although aren't the Turks having problems in Germany...Algerians in France? There goes the racists again! Face it, the US isn't perfect, but go ask the Eastern Europeans, or the North Koreans who they wish were their partners 50 odd years ago! PorcoRosso, you should take a walk to the Normandy cemetary and thank out loud those heroes, who gave their lives to free your pathetic soul. I'm done...this website is sad...I'm suppossed to fly a C-141 mission to Germany soon, think I'll reschedule.
the Top Ten list to include:
World War 1, couple of million dead
World war 2, Ditto times 2
the Crusades
the Irish famines
The Holocaust, of which many of our French "Buddies" helped along with, so much for racial harmony
Kosovo
Bosnia, to be more current
Aren't the Communists still a party in France, and Italy..so much for enlightenment
Also, Maybe the US should pull out of all the military treaties and pacts we have, and I'll see the French use our satellites, GPS, and Intel, like the EP-3 was collecting, to fight their opponents...NOT
If we stopped buying Mercedes and BMW's the companies may go Bankrupt...Ditto with Airbus..
Stop your whining and jealousy, I don't see hoards of people lining up on your shores trying to get in...Although aren't the Turks having problems in Germany...Algerians in France? There goes the racists again! Face it, the US isn't perfect, but go ask the Eastern Europeans, or the North Koreans who they wish were their partners 50 odd years ago! PorcoRosso, you should take a walk to the Normandy cemetary and thank out loud those heroes, who gave their lives to free your pathetic soul. I'm done...this website is sad...I'm suppossed to fly a C-141 mission to Germany soon, think I'll reschedule.
Guest
Posts: n/a
ROC
No I am not a military pilot, and I never pretended I was one, that's why am not going in technical speculations about EP3 & F8. And because I don't give any sort of technical reason, I can't be blamed of ignorance,
I think you confused my post with someone else's
Yes I have been to the US Cemetery in Normandy, probably more often than you, always with great respect for US soldiers, I have also been to the german cemeteries as well.
Yes, some french helped the german to find the jews during WWII, My grandfather couldn't, as he was in a camp at this period ....
and No, I am not communist of some sort
Yes there is a communist party in France,and many others, not only 2 ! actually the transportation minister is "red", I guess this is normal in democracy to accept every opinion (I am not voting for them) And there is probably a communist party in USA an well (at least there was one in the 60's)
If you read my posts again, you won't see any anti-american idea, just criticism.
BTW, I am going in USA next week.
You don't need to be sad, ROC, I don't hate USA even after all the crap said about France, Face the fact, nobody's perfect ! C'est la vie
For those who think PorcoRosso is a communist hero, I suggest you rent the DVD or VideoTape of this excellent japanese cartoon, if you love flying, you will like it !
If G.Bush JR is reading this thread : don't press THE button !
No I am not a military pilot, and I never pretended I was one, that's why am not going in technical speculations about EP3 & F8. And because I don't give any sort of technical reason, I can't be blamed of ignorance,
I think you confused my post with someone else's
Yes I have been to the US Cemetery in Normandy, probably more often than you, always with great respect for US soldiers, I have also been to the german cemeteries as well.
Yes, some french helped the german to find the jews during WWII, My grandfather couldn't, as he was in a camp at this period ....
and No, I am not communist of some sort
Yes there is a communist party in France,and many others, not only 2 ! actually the transportation minister is "red", I guess this is normal in democracy to accept every opinion (I am not voting for them) And there is probably a communist party in USA an well (at least there was one in the 60's)
If you read my posts again, you won't see any anti-american idea, just criticism.
BTW, I am going in USA next week.
You don't need to be sad, ROC, I don't hate USA even after all the crap said about France, Face the fact, nobody's perfect ! C'est la vie
For those who think PorcoRosso is a communist hero, I suggest you rent the DVD or VideoTape of this excellent japanese cartoon, if you love flying, you will like it !
If G.Bush JR is reading this thread : don't press THE button !
Guest
Posts: n/a
Hi everyone,
I don't expect to be taken very seriously as I'm just a wannabee. But since I'm Chinese and it looks to me that there is no other of my fellow countryman taking part in this discussion I would like to offer my two pennies' worth.
An analogy I would apply to this incident is that if one dangles a chicken over a crocodile pit for long enough sooner or later it's going to jump up and bite, even if it means risking losing a tooth or two. That can be because it wants the chicken, or it could also be because it thinks the chicken is a threat.
The croc has now taken a bite, lost a tooth in the process and at the same time the person whom for whatever reason was holding the chicken was also scratched. Who's to be blamed? It's a bit like the chicken and egg question which has led to a vicious cycle.
Maybe it's just me but I don't take this incident as seriously as some of your posts imply you do. A country would be silly not to fight for its own interests. And to me international affairs is no different from say the corporate world in that everyone tries to push as close to the limits as one can without actually breaking any laws.
Whether the Chinese government just wanted to protest against the spying or did they actually meant for the plane to fall(!) into their hands will probably never be known. But I believe the collision itself was an accident. The facts seem to be that there is no conclusive prove as to who should receive how much blame so in a way it's a better than normal opportunity to take advantage of what's on offer if one can manage to pull it off.
I have always thought that the most appropriate thing to do was to return the crewmember immediately but there might be reasons for not doing so, reasons that could be good enough for any military to do the same.
Finally, I remember someone mentioning a long time ago on this thread that if China doesn't want people to intercept their radio communications they should use digital rather than analogue systems. I'm wondering if that person has the relevant expertise to back that up.
I don't expect to be taken very seriously as I'm just a wannabee. But since I'm Chinese and it looks to me that there is no other of my fellow countryman taking part in this discussion I would like to offer my two pennies' worth.
An analogy I would apply to this incident is that if one dangles a chicken over a crocodile pit for long enough sooner or later it's going to jump up and bite, even if it means risking losing a tooth or two. That can be because it wants the chicken, or it could also be because it thinks the chicken is a threat.
The croc has now taken a bite, lost a tooth in the process and at the same time the person whom for whatever reason was holding the chicken was also scratched. Who's to be blamed? It's a bit like the chicken and egg question which has led to a vicious cycle.
Maybe it's just me but I don't take this incident as seriously as some of your posts imply you do. A country would be silly not to fight for its own interests. And to me international affairs is no different from say the corporate world in that everyone tries to push as close to the limits as one can without actually breaking any laws.
Whether the Chinese government just wanted to protest against the spying or did they actually meant for the plane to fall(!) into their hands will probably never be known. But I believe the collision itself was an accident. The facts seem to be that there is no conclusive prove as to who should receive how much blame so in a way it's a better than normal opportunity to take advantage of what's on offer if one can manage to pull it off.
I have always thought that the most appropriate thing to do was to return the crewmember immediately but there might be reasons for not doing so, reasons that could be good enough for any military to do the same.
Finally, I remember someone mentioning a long time ago on this thread that if China doesn't want people to intercept their radio communications they should use digital rather than analogue systems. I'm wondering if that person has the relevant expertise to back that up.
Guest
Posts: n/a
This thread must be hell for the moderators. Sanity is departing fast.
Sure I criticise the US. I also criticise my own country, and others, if I see something I think is wrong. Most people accept it as well-meant, and argue with me reasonably if they wish, but people from the US cannot take any criticism at all without lashing out. And a lot of the criticism is true. Instead of getting offended, try looking at it with an open mind. Maybe you will agree and be able to do something about it.
And nobody is asking the US to pull back and cut off ties with the rest of the world. If it was even possible it would hurt the US more than it would most other countries.
I say again, that the US has contributed more to the world's progress than it has hurt. The world would indeed be a very different place if the USA did not exist. So soothe your ruffled feathers. Most of us mean well.
I hope that the leaders of the world's only super power have a more balanced and patient approach to China and the rest of the world's hot spots than some of those who post here.
Sure I criticise the US. I also criticise my own country, and others, if I see something I think is wrong. Most people accept it as well-meant, and argue with me reasonably if they wish, but people from the US cannot take any criticism at all without lashing out. And a lot of the criticism is true. Instead of getting offended, try looking at it with an open mind. Maybe you will agree and be able to do something about it.
And nobody is asking the US to pull back and cut off ties with the rest of the world. If it was even possible it would hurt the US more than it would most other countries.
I say again, that the US has contributed more to the world's progress than it has hurt. The world would indeed be a very different place if the USA did not exist. So soothe your ruffled feathers. Most of us mean well.
I hope that the leaders of the world's only super power have a more balanced and patient approach to China and the rest of the world's hot spots than some of those who post here.
Guest
Posts: n/a
I for one do think americans can take criticism, but like most, they are a proud people and do not take it lying down.
Sure, there is room for improvement in the US, as there is in most other countries. I certainly could start slagging every nation in the world, some certainly are worse than others, but all have their faults. What I think americans are getting so tired of, is the fact that all the mistakes we make are brought up, but the good things mostly forgotten.
Yes, we are spying on China, and we will continue to do so. The US has enemies, that would gladly reduce the country to as ash heap, but we are not going to allow them to do so. No, I am not being paranoid and I think you will agree that certain countries does not particularily like the US. We are merely ensuring the safety of the nation and the american people. Just like the RAF is involved in "intelligence gathering missions", to keep an eye on certain nations that might be intent on harming the british people. If it were a perfect world, why would the British have submarines armed with nuclear warheads, after all, it is a peaceloving nation. We all know it is not a perfect world, mostly because there still are a few rogue nations who threatens world peace. They can almost be counted on one hand, once they accept that we live in a brave new world, we can truly consider disarmament, not until then. Now, I am not saying they should swear allegiance to the US. But they must stop their posturing, the likes of Hussein comes to mind. Certainly in the eyes of the civilized world, he has no redeeming qualities.
So, instead of pointing fingers at the US, what do you suggest we do as far as these rogue nations are concerned. Sit back and wait or should we keep a close eye on them, while trying to negotiate a closer relationship?
I suppose a good analogy with regards to the US and some people opinions of their actions, could be described as this: You like beating your wife. I would certainly not allow you to do that, if I could stop it. You are not going to like me very much, but I am still going to do it. In the meantime, all that is reported in the news is not the fact that I did a good deed, merley the fact that the grass on my lawn is a little to long.
United States is not perfect, but we do supply a stabilizing presence in the world, without which it would be a far worse place.
The US will not embrace an isolationist attitude, we cannot afford to, history have shown us that lesson.
Sure, there is room for improvement in the US, as there is in most other countries. I certainly could start slagging every nation in the world, some certainly are worse than others, but all have their faults. What I think americans are getting so tired of, is the fact that all the mistakes we make are brought up, but the good things mostly forgotten.
Yes, we are spying on China, and we will continue to do so. The US has enemies, that would gladly reduce the country to as ash heap, but we are not going to allow them to do so. No, I am not being paranoid and I think you will agree that certain countries does not particularily like the US. We are merely ensuring the safety of the nation and the american people. Just like the RAF is involved in "intelligence gathering missions", to keep an eye on certain nations that might be intent on harming the british people. If it were a perfect world, why would the British have submarines armed with nuclear warheads, after all, it is a peaceloving nation. We all know it is not a perfect world, mostly because there still are a few rogue nations who threatens world peace. They can almost be counted on one hand, once they accept that we live in a brave new world, we can truly consider disarmament, not until then. Now, I am not saying they should swear allegiance to the US. But they must stop their posturing, the likes of Hussein comes to mind. Certainly in the eyes of the civilized world, he has no redeeming qualities.
So, instead of pointing fingers at the US, what do you suggest we do as far as these rogue nations are concerned. Sit back and wait or should we keep a close eye on them, while trying to negotiate a closer relationship?
I suppose a good analogy with regards to the US and some people opinions of their actions, could be described as this: You like beating your wife. I would certainly not allow you to do that, if I could stop it. You are not going to like me very much, but I am still going to do it. In the meantime, all that is reported in the news is not the fact that I did a good deed, merley the fact that the grass on my lawn is a little to long.
United States is not perfect, but we do supply a stabilizing presence in the world, without which it would be a far worse place.
The US will not embrace an isolationist attitude, we cannot afford to, history have shown us that lesson.
Guest
Posts: n/a
LatviaCalling,
That paragraph of yours ending with the sentence " Had to get that one in " does not do you credit. In my country we would call that " hitting below the belt ". You are forcing me (and possibly others) to agree with Bottoms Up about " Lowlife ". Please apologise to my colleague and retain our respect.
KIFIS
That paragraph of yours ending with the sentence " Had to get that one in " does not do you credit. In my country we would call that " hitting below the belt ". You are forcing me (and possibly others) to agree with Bottoms Up about " Lowlife ". Please apologise to my colleague and retain our respect.
KIFIS
Guest
Posts: n/a
Guru having admitted to being Chinese I found your thread refreshingly sensible compared to some of the more hysterical offerings both for and against the origional suggestion put forward by mr KIFIS.
KIFIS get real, you really are echoing the Chinese line "I think you should appologise....." to LatviaCalling.
You and your little band of supporters should all go to your museum in China, and stay there if you like it so much. Who knows the way things are going the plane may well end up there as a heroic monument to the struggle against the Imperialist runnning dogs
KIFIS get real, you really are echoing the Chinese line "I think you should appologise....." to LatviaCalling.
You and your little band of supporters should all go to your museum in China, and stay there if you like it so much. Who knows the way things are going the plane may well end up there as a heroic monument to the struggle against the Imperialist runnning dogs
Guest
Posts: n/a
OK guys, it all started because Kifis wanted the P-3 in the museum, I say, go ahead put it in display together with a photo of Wang, as somobody said, if the P-3 had been so important it would have been scorted, besides, for a secret mission, it look more like a Presidential tour, with more people than was really needed.
Talking about coincidences, the USA needed a pretext to sell weapons to Taiwan, it looks like they got it.
From the pilot's point of view, I think the Captain of the P-3 did his job, put everybody on the ground alive. I just wonder if he had decided to ditch and somebody was hurt or even killed,what would the repercussions be?
As usual his decision has been and will be judge by people who, on the ground, can take all the time to judge the right maneuver- and even call the communist party and ask for their opinion-. After all decision making is the best part of a Pilots job, isn't it?
Cheers everybody.
Talking about coincidences, the USA needed a pretext to sell weapons to Taiwan, it looks like they got it.
From the pilot's point of view, I think the Captain of the P-3 did his job, put everybody on the ground alive. I just wonder if he had decided to ditch and somebody was hurt or even killed,what would the repercussions be?
As usual his decision has been and will be judge by people who, on the ground, can take all the time to judge the right maneuver- and even call the communist party and ask for their opinion-. After all decision making is the best part of a Pilots job, isn't it?
Cheers everybody.
Guest
Posts: n/a
After painfully reading through six pages of what amounts to a game of "Pinkos" vrs "Patriots" I think that the original point was lost. Simple facts were that a nimble fighter rubbed noses with a slug of a P-3 in international waters. The fighter lost and now the Chinese have an old airplane to parade as proof of American imperialism. In my mind a overly aggressive fighter pilot removes self from gene pool ... first time that has ever happened. And without sounding too hypocritical over his death, I am aware that it could easily have been any one of us in our past lives but, through some act of divine intervention, we survived our own acts of impetuousness. However, that is just my opinion I suppose.
What does seem to be more evident however is that a new cold war is rising in the east and more people will get killed in the name of vanity, machoism, patiotism and economics. Reminiscent of the 60's through late 80's I suppose with undoubdtedly different results forecast. Kiris seems to be one of those individuals who heap blame on the Americans for the woes of the world while praising the peace-loving and benevolent sons of Mao. It is people like him who really bring the pot to a boil and the rest of us should be more wary before being drawn into discussion based upon empty political rhetoric.
I wish you all (even the misguided Kiris) safe skies and long lives.
What does seem to be more evident however is that a new cold war is rising in the east and more people will get killed in the name of vanity, machoism, patiotism and economics. Reminiscent of the 60's through late 80's I suppose with undoubdtedly different results forecast. Kiris seems to be one of those individuals who heap blame on the Americans for the woes of the world while praising the peace-loving and benevolent sons of Mao. It is people like him who really bring the pot to a boil and the rest of us should be more wary before being drawn into discussion based upon empty political rhetoric.
I wish you all (even the misguided Kiris) safe skies and long lives.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Diesel8
I think you are the balanced type, your post and guru's are the most clever, I totally agree with you ...and it doesn't turn you in communist !
Bearcat88
You don't need to be caricatural to make your point ; I don't think KIFIS or myself are so-called "sons of Mao".
I don't need to highlight the fact that Mao wasn't really openminded;
try to differ from him ...
BTW, one of my favourite movie is "Saving Private Ryan" ...Nothing wrong with that ?
------------------
[email protected]
"Flying is not dangerous, crashing is"
I think you are the balanced type, your post and guru's are the most clever, I totally agree with you ...and it doesn't turn you in communist !
Bearcat88
You don't need to be caricatural to make your point ; I don't think KIFIS or myself are so-called "sons of Mao".
I don't need to highlight the fact that Mao wasn't really openminded;
try to differ from him ...
BTW, one of my favourite movie is "Saving Private Ryan" ...Nothing wrong with that ?
------------------
[email protected]
"Flying is not dangerous, crashing is"
Guest
Posts: n/a
LATVIA
<Take a look at yourself.> Well I am taking a look at myself. What a
handsome devil, not a bit like Pocco Rossi, but then he is a frog
A highly intelligent one at that! Jingoistic? Moi! Tell me LC, are any
of the facts which I have posted previously, wrong?
<It seems to me that some of you America-bashers are saying, "We like
Americans. Many of our friends are Americans. We live or visit in the United
AMERICA!'".......>
I cannot speak for others attitudes, but as far as I am concerned I will
refer anyone so interested back to Jolly Tall's post (repeated here for
convenience) which I perceive to be a fair and accurate description of
the views of many non-americans.
............. Jolly Tall posted 06 April 2001 19:33 ................
There has been a great deal of critical comment here on the behaviour of
the US in world affairs over the past few decades. But that does not
necessarily equate to anti-American sentiment re its citizens. As a
British citizen (or subject!) I could happily accept critical opinion of
UK policy over the past 20 or so years from any nationality, without
taking it personally. It is quite feasible to feel endearment towards a
geographical entity and its people, yet still feel revolted by its
international behaviour. A countries' administration and its citizens
are not one and the same thing. (end of quote)
As to the Kansas farmer not being aware of Holland etc. I have no
problems with that. As for that same Kansas farmer electing his
government, again no problem. But if that same farmer does not research
what, why and to whom he is giving his vote then he must accept any
criticism which rebounds on his choice of candidate/government, whose
actions are carried out in the farmer's name. So next time he just might
engage brain before voting.
The Kansas farmer is personally shocked and amazed that he is not seen
as a good guy. He is, but it is his/her government's actions which are
rebounding on him. He knows no better, he has voted for the 'promised'
cut in taxes, lower this, lower that. He hasn't a clue where Latvia is.
And more to the point couldn't care less, as long as HE is ok.
<I admit I got the IL76 and the AN124 confused, but if you read my
posts, you will also see that I posted a correction.>
The Captain of the Vincennes posted a correction too, but in that case
the outcome was a bit more serious and just a little too late.
Link Trainers? We had one at the flying school. It did not get used very
often, as we had proper toys to play with, such as Tiger Moths and
Austers. Was flying a Cub last year, so I think I know what one is.
And BTW, I have been to the Normandy beaches and war graves.
Diesel8 has it right, as does Guru. Though hidden in Diesel8's post is
the true bottom line (DC8 wrote):
<We are merely ensuring the safety of the nation and the american people.>
ALONEINCOMMAND
<From the pilot's point of view, I think the Captain of the P-3 did his
job, put everybody on the ground alive.>
Most certainly, a nice piece of flying. As any one of us would try to
emulate if put in an identical crippled aircraft scenario. So well done.
TAXSMAN
< Why would any intelligent human put more trust into the rantings of a
communist propaganda machine than the free press of the world?>
There was a time, long ago, when what you say would be true, but then
people began to think for themselves. This was assisted in good measure
by the world's press being allowed in restricted war zones to see for
themselves and thus counter the deliberate mis-information put out by a
censored home media. Ok there have probably been many 'controlled'
situations, but when CNN does a live broadcast from Baghdad of a cruise
missile slamming into a neighbouring hotel with that much loved phrase
'precision pin point accuracy', no one can deny it was not another oscar
winning performance.
British propaganda in W.W.II widely stated that 'Germans Eat Babies'. The
Ministry of Propaganda produced thousands of posters which featured a
bloody thirsty Storm Trooper with a squealing baby pinned on his bayonet.
During the Iraq conflict American propaganda, fed by the advertising
company of the Kuwaiti Embassy in the US said that Iraqi soldiers seized
incubators from the hospital in Kuwait City and killed off the babies in
them before transporting the equipment back to Baghdad. The daughter of
the Kuwaiti Ambassador later admitted this to be mis-information aimed
at stirring up anti Iraqi feelings in America and europe.
So Taxsman: the world's free press were right, were they?
LATVIA
The US might give grain to Ethiopia, but charged the airline for all
the Boeing aircraft they sold Africa's largest operator. At the height
of the Ethiopian famine Boeing 767s were flying in the world's press
(dining in five star luxury en route) to film the starving and the dead.
BUNYIP
Regarding that last part of your earlier post, I see nothing there which
necessitates an apology from you. re LATVIA:
< but I can't imagine what you call "the wheat thing" has anything to do
with the EP-3 incident over international waters off China?>
As has already been pointed out, this accident is not taken as a single
isolated issue. The P3 incident is but a pin prick and representative of the
wider picture. Guru has it spot on. If you dangle a chicken over a
crocodile pool, one day it will bite.
Arms inspectors - someone in both P3 threads mentioned Arms Inspectors.
You mean those drunken UN p*ssheads in the Bahraini hotels frequented
by hundreds of transiting airline staff who watched in disgust the
behaviour of those UN representatives.
And don't forget that Iraq was only practising what the Americans preach.
That much maligned British TV Channel (4) showed a programme where the
US Government has long blocked **legitimate** UN appointed weapons
inspectors from making inspection of US weapons sites. And why?
Because the UN Team appointed by the United Nations to conduct these
inspections contain Ukrainian personnel. So when the Iraqis played the
same game of picking and choosing the make up of a UN inspection team,
the hypocritical Americans cried foul. So much for all nations abiding
by the same set of rules.
China is my no means an ideal state and neither are many other countries.
So is it right to turn a blind eye in the interests of furthering one's
own economy/national cause? If you condemn one, you condemn them all. Or
do you?
Does the west care about the Kurds? No way. As long as the Americans and
British can use Turkish airfields and base American listening posts in
that country they couldn't gave a damn about Turkey's Human Rights issue,
which is equal to anything the Chinese have to show. In fact the
american arms industry plies the Turkish Armed Forces with F16s & Blackhawk
helicopters to assist in the weekly slaughter of the Kurds. Yet not too
far away the righteous christian nations are involved in the former
Yugoslavia, setting up ethnic enclaves to protect the indigenous population.
What hypocrisy!
So Latvia, yes this thread has evolved into something other than what
you may have intended. However the contents of this subject and the
other you started are all indirectly linked, of which a P3 being
involved in a tragic accident is just the tip of the one and the same
iceberg. Have a good day!
<Take a look at yourself.> Well I am taking a look at myself. What a
handsome devil, not a bit like Pocco Rossi, but then he is a frog
A highly intelligent one at that! Jingoistic? Moi! Tell me LC, are any
of the facts which I have posted previously, wrong?
<It seems to me that some of you America-bashers are saying, "We like
Americans. Many of our friends are Americans. We live or visit in the United
AMERICA!'".......>
I cannot speak for others attitudes, but as far as I am concerned I will
refer anyone so interested back to Jolly Tall's post (repeated here for
convenience) which I perceive to be a fair and accurate description of
the views of many non-americans.
............. Jolly Tall posted 06 April 2001 19:33 ................
There has been a great deal of critical comment here on the behaviour of
the US in world affairs over the past few decades. But that does not
necessarily equate to anti-American sentiment re its citizens. As a
British citizen (or subject!) I could happily accept critical opinion of
UK policy over the past 20 or so years from any nationality, without
taking it personally. It is quite feasible to feel endearment towards a
geographical entity and its people, yet still feel revolted by its
international behaviour. A countries' administration and its citizens
are not one and the same thing. (end of quote)
As to the Kansas farmer not being aware of Holland etc. I have no
problems with that. As for that same Kansas farmer electing his
government, again no problem. But if that same farmer does not research
what, why and to whom he is giving his vote then he must accept any
criticism which rebounds on his choice of candidate/government, whose
actions are carried out in the farmer's name. So next time he just might
engage brain before voting.
The Kansas farmer is personally shocked and amazed that he is not seen
as a good guy. He is, but it is his/her government's actions which are
rebounding on him. He knows no better, he has voted for the 'promised'
cut in taxes, lower this, lower that. He hasn't a clue where Latvia is.
And more to the point couldn't care less, as long as HE is ok.
<I admit I got the IL76 and the AN124 confused, but if you read my
posts, you will also see that I posted a correction.>
The Captain of the Vincennes posted a correction too, but in that case
the outcome was a bit more serious and just a little too late.
Link Trainers? We had one at the flying school. It did not get used very
often, as we had proper toys to play with, such as Tiger Moths and
Austers. Was flying a Cub last year, so I think I know what one is.
And BTW, I have been to the Normandy beaches and war graves.
Diesel8 has it right, as does Guru. Though hidden in Diesel8's post is
the true bottom line (DC8 wrote):
<We are merely ensuring the safety of the nation and the american people.>
ALONEINCOMMAND
<From the pilot's point of view, I think the Captain of the P-3 did his
job, put everybody on the ground alive.>
Most certainly, a nice piece of flying. As any one of us would try to
emulate if put in an identical crippled aircraft scenario. So well done.
TAXSMAN
< Why would any intelligent human put more trust into the rantings of a
communist propaganda machine than the free press of the world?>
There was a time, long ago, when what you say would be true, but then
people began to think for themselves. This was assisted in good measure
by the world's press being allowed in restricted war zones to see for
themselves and thus counter the deliberate mis-information put out by a
censored home media. Ok there have probably been many 'controlled'
situations, but when CNN does a live broadcast from Baghdad of a cruise
missile slamming into a neighbouring hotel with that much loved phrase
'precision pin point accuracy', no one can deny it was not another oscar
winning performance.
British propaganda in W.W.II widely stated that 'Germans Eat Babies'. The
Ministry of Propaganda produced thousands of posters which featured a
bloody thirsty Storm Trooper with a squealing baby pinned on his bayonet.
During the Iraq conflict American propaganda, fed by the advertising
company of the Kuwaiti Embassy in the US said that Iraqi soldiers seized
incubators from the hospital in Kuwait City and killed off the babies in
them before transporting the equipment back to Baghdad. The daughter of
the Kuwaiti Ambassador later admitted this to be mis-information aimed
at stirring up anti Iraqi feelings in America and europe.
So Taxsman: the world's free press were right, were they?
LATVIA
The US might give grain to Ethiopia, but charged the airline for all
the Boeing aircraft they sold Africa's largest operator. At the height
of the Ethiopian famine Boeing 767s were flying in the world's press
(dining in five star luxury en route) to film the starving and the dead.
BUNYIP
Regarding that last part of your earlier post, I see nothing there which
necessitates an apology from you. re LATVIA:
< but I can't imagine what you call "the wheat thing" has anything to do
with the EP-3 incident over international waters off China?>
As has already been pointed out, this accident is not taken as a single
isolated issue. The P3 incident is but a pin prick and representative of the
wider picture. Guru has it spot on. If you dangle a chicken over a
crocodile pool, one day it will bite.
Arms inspectors - someone in both P3 threads mentioned Arms Inspectors.
You mean those drunken UN p*ssheads in the Bahraini hotels frequented
by hundreds of transiting airline staff who watched in disgust the
behaviour of those UN representatives.
And don't forget that Iraq was only practising what the Americans preach.
That much maligned British TV Channel (4) showed a programme where the
US Government has long blocked **legitimate** UN appointed weapons
inspectors from making inspection of US weapons sites. And why?
Because the UN Team appointed by the United Nations to conduct these
inspections contain Ukrainian personnel. So when the Iraqis played the
same game of picking and choosing the make up of a UN inspection team,
the hypocritical Americans cried foul. So much for all nations abiding
by the same set of rules.
China is my no means an ideal state and neither are many other countries.
So is it right to turn a blind eye in the interests of furthering one's
own economy/national cause? If you condemn one, you condemn them all. Or
do you?
Does the west care about the Kurds? No way. As long as the Americans and
British can use Turkish airfields and base American listening posts in
that country they couldn't gave a damn about Turkey's Human Rights issue,
which is equal to anything the Chinese have to show. In fact the
american arms industry plies the Turkish Armed Forces with F16s & Blackhawk
helicopters to assist in the weekly slaughter of the Kurds. Yet not too
far away the righteous christian nations are involved in the former
Yugoslavia, setting up ethnic enclaves to protect the indigenous population.
What hypocrisy!
So Latvia, yes this thread has evolved into something other than what
you may have intended. However the contents of this subject and the
other you started are all indirectly linked, of which a P3 being
involved in a tragic accident is just the tip of the one and the same
iceberg. Have a good day!
Guest
Posts: n/a
In the midst of all the hysterical China bashing, everyone seems to have forgotten one relevant fact. China in all its 5000+ year history has never been expansionist. In fact usually the opposite, turning inwards periodically, as many Americans think the US should do. (The only exception to this is Tibet, a tragedy that bears little relevance to this bunfight.)
Conversely, the Chinese are extremely wary of foreigners coming to their shores. The last time this happened British (and American) companies came to sell opium despite the protests of the Chinese government. These paragons of international trade were accompanied by an Army that proceeded to occupy Beijing and burn the imperial summer palace, a 2000 year old structure and its reportedly exquisite gardens. All in the name of Free Trade.
Can you blame the Chinese for being paranoid?
For the record I am not Chinese or Communist. Merely a despairing parent who wonders what sort of world his children will live in.
Conversely, the Chinese are extremely wary of foreigners coming to their shores. The last time this happened British (and American) companies came to sell opium despite the protests of the Chinese government. These paragons of international trade were accompanied by an Army that proceeded to occupy Beijing and burn the imperial summer palace, a 2000 year old structure and its reportedly exquisite gardens. All in the name of Free Trade.
Can you blame the Chinese for being paranoid?
For the record I am not Chinese or Communist. Merely a despairing parent who wonders what sort of world his children will live in.
Guest
Posts: n/a
You Americans are not going to like this
Back in 1914 an American antique dealer somehow managed to obtain two of China’s most valued cultural relics. These were two magnificient life size sculptured stone
war horses from a group of six that were erected in 649 AD to guard the tomb of Emperor Tai Zhong (Li Shi Ming). The horses were stolen from the tomb and then found their way into American hands. They are now a prized exhibit at the Museum of the University of Pennsylvania in Philaedelphia. The Chinese consider the horses as stolen property and for years have been asking for the return of what they term their “ national treasures “. The Americans refuse because they claim to have a signed receipt. The Chinese say the receipt is invalid because it is signed by a thief. I understand the Americans have recently offered to give back the horses in return for two original terracotta soldiers. The Chinese say no to this. I first heard the story from a Chinese girl who was a tour guide at the Xian City Museum. We were standing in front of a replica of the stolen horse named “ Sa Lu Zi “ (all six have names) and as she told the story she became visibly angry. I knew exactly how she felt, the bullying has been going on for a long time. I later had the story confirmed.
I wonder how many Americans know of the stolen Chinese relics that are so proudly displayed in that Pennsylvania Museum ? Rave on about the wicked Chinese holding your EP-3 spyplane but keep quiet about the sneaky dealings that surrounds Emperor Tai Zhong’s stolen horses. CNN take note.
L1011
A well thought out summary of exactly how I feel too. I didn't start this thread as an American bashing exercise. I am just asking for a "fair go" for the people of China. They are just like you and I except life is a little more difficult for them.
KIFIS
Back in 1914 an American antique dealer somehow managed to obtain two of China’s most valued cultural relics. These were two magnificient life size sculptured stone
war horses from a group of six that were erected in 649 AD to guard the tomb of Emperor Tai Zhong (Li Shi Ming). The horses were stolen from the tomb and then found their way into American hands. They are now a prized exhibit at the Museum of the University of Pennsylvania in Philaedelphia. The Chinese consider the horses as stolen property and for years have been asking for the return of what they term their “ national treasures “. The Americans refuse because they claim to have a signed receipt. The Chinese say the receipt is invalid because it is signed by a thief. I understand the Americans have recently offered to give back the horses in return for two original terracotta soldiers. The Chinese say no to this. I first heard the story from a Chinese girl who was a tour guide at the Xian City Museum. We were standing in front of a replica of the stolen horse named “ Sa Lu Zi “ (all six have names) and as she told the story she became visibly angry. I knew exactly how she felt, the bullying has been going on for a long time. I later had the story confirmed.
I wonder how many Americans know of the stolen Chinese relics that are so proudly displayed in that Pennsylvania Museum ? Rave on about the wicked Chinese holding your EP-3 spyplane but keep quiet about the sneaky dealings that surrounds Emperor Tai Zhong’s stolen horses. CNN take note.
L1011
A well thought out summary of exactly how I feel too. I didn't start this thread as an American bashing exercise. I am just asking for a "fair go" for the people of China. They are just like you and I except life is a little more difficult for them.
KIFIS
Guest
Posts: n/a
Really what a load of crap!
KIFIS is suffering from that unique Chinese foolishness of seemingly truly believing a totally unbelievable line delivered by the government, fueled by a xenophibic attitude.
It is interesting to see China enter a dangerous phase where no one believes in communism anymore and the only thing left to latch onto is nationalism (just like Serbia hey?) and slide into chaos. Haven't gone far in 5000 years have they....
Wang wouldn't have made it in any other airforce and now he is turned into a "hero" for his foolishness. What a dunce.
KIFIS is suffering from that unique Chinese foolishness of seemingly truly believing a totally unbelievable line delivered by the government, fueled by a xenophibic attitude.
It is interesting to see China enter a dangerous phase where no one believes in communism anymore and the only thing left to latch onto is nationalism (just like Serbia hey?) and slide into chaos. Haven't gone far in 5000 years have they....
Wang wouldn't have made it in any other airforce and now he is turned into a "hero" for his foolishness. What a dunce.
Guest
Posts: n/a
L1011
Onto a loser if you expect some of the 'country-right-or-wrong' rednecks here to appreciate subtleties about China's political history. They are probably incapable of differentiating between a Democrat and a Communist, let alone between a Marxist-type Communist, an old-style Soviet Stalinist (expansionist up to and including Brezhnev, I'd say, and still expansionist by inclination in places like North Korea) and a Chinese-style orthodox-Leninist/Confucian communist.
But you're right. China has never been expansionist, except in terms of its ambitions in what it sees as legitimate parts of China, such as Tibet, Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macau.
Onto a loser if you expect some of the 'country-right-or-wrong' rednecks here to appreciate subtleties about China's political history. They are probably incapable of differentiating between a Democrat and a Communist, let alone between a Marxist-type Communist, an old-style Soviet Stalinist (expansionist up to and including Brezhnev, I'd say, and still expansionist by inclination in places like North Korea) and a Chinese-style orthodox-Leninist/Confucian communist.
But you're right. China has never been expansionist, except in terms of its ambitions in what it sees as legitimate parts of China, such as Tibet, Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macau.
Guest
Posts: n/a
L1011 and jackonicko:
Oh my Gawd! You two guys obviously didn't pay attention to the History teacher in secondary school. China was never an expansionist? My arse!! I hope you two are pilots and know your aeroplanes better than you know Chinese history.
Oh my Gawd! You two guys obviously didn't pay attention to the History teacher in secondary school. China was never an expansionist? My arse!! I hope you two are pilots and know your aeroplanes better than you know Chinese history.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Bottoms Up!
Oh, come on, Bottoms Up! How can you compare me with the captain of the Vincennes in my misidentification of two Russian cargo planes sitting off in the woods from Riga Airport. I was sitting in the window seat of a BA 737, and no, I did not smash the window and unleash my American-made bazooka to destroy them.
Regarding your torrent on the starving Ethiopians and the press being given 5-star treatment, you're absolutely wrong.
You don't carry a 5-star hotel in a tent when you go and report on villages that are starving. You bring your tent and bug repellent with you, but not a guy in white tails and tuxedo to serve you smoked salmon after you've seen the human disaster. I've been there and other places. I know how it is.
Have you been there?
As far as flying to the capital, I don't see any reason for not going in business class if your company is paying for it, but just try landing a 767 in a village.
KIFIS
Regarding your post of American plundering of Chinese relics, this is not intended to be British-bashing, but if you really want to get ahold of some questionable relics, try the British Museum.
Again, this is not a bash against anyone. Those were the times.
But by the way, why is Tibet under such a strict Chinese rule with the politics of China being to disperse the Tibetians and import ethnic Chinese so there would be no Tibetian majority and therefore not a problem? Who gave China the right to take over Tibet in the first place?
The Russians tried the dispopulation in the Baltic States (Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia) and almost succeeded until Communism, the savior of the world, crumbled and collapsed.
Oh, come on, Bottoms Up! How can you compare me with the captain of the Vincennes in my misidentification of two Russian cargo planes sitting off in the woods from Riga Airport. I was sitting in the window seat of a BA 737, and no, I did not smash the window and unleash my American-made bazooka to destroy them.
Regarding your torrent on the starving Ethiopians and the press being given 5-star treatment, you're absolutely wrong.
You don't carry a 5-star hotel in a tent when you go and report on villages that are starving. You bring your tent and bug repellent with you, but not a guy in white tails and tuxedo to serve you smoked salmon after you've seen the human disaster. I've been there and other places. I know how it is.
Have you been there?
As far as flying to the capital, I don't see any reason for not going in business class if your company is paying for it, but just try landing a 767 in a village.
KIFIS
Regarding your post of American plundering of Chinese relics, this is not intended to be British-bashing, but if you really want to get ahold of some questionable relics, try the British Museum.
Again, this is not a bash against anyone. Those were the times.
But by the way, why is Tibet under such a strict Chinese rule with the politics of China being to disperse the Tibetians and import ethnic Chinese so there would be no Tibetian majority and therefore not a problem? Who gave China the right to take over Tibet in the first place?
The Russians tried the dispopulation in the Baltic States (Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia) and almost succeeded until Communism, the savior of the world, crumbled and collapsed.