Spy Plane : Put it in Chinese Museum
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Spy Plane : Put it in Chinese Museum
Located on the northern edge of Beijing in the Peoples Republic of China is the Chinese Aviation Museum. It is my fervent hope that the American Navy EP3 ends up in this museum and becomes a reminder of the constant intrusion and trespassing that is going on over the South China sea. It would also be a fitting memorial to the patriotism of fighter pilot Wang Wei. Now that the “ born to fly heroes “ ( press quote) are home there is much loud rhetoric of skill and ability. No mention though of the panic that caused a perfectly flyable aircraft to be flung onto the nearest available airfield.
KIFIS
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Lets put it into perspective here eh, you have a Navy aircraft carrying 24 souls on board with 2 jets either side of it, do you really believe that the EP3 played dodgems in the sky against the 2 jets, I think not.
OK there is an argument why were they there in the first place but there is no doubt in my mind that the dumb ass chinese pilot got too close for his own good and here is the result.
Made me laugh when the crew were relaesed because then the apology was withdrawn and quite rightly so.
Who cares what they do with the EP3 most of the intelligence was withdrawn anyway and the rest of it the chinese probably already knew so who cares a toss.
In my mind the chinese are full of crap, and are going the right way about making life difficult for themselves, because they need the US more than the US needs them.
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Better to be up there wishing you were down here than be down here wishing you were up there!
OK there is an argument why were they there in the first place but there is no doubt in my mind that the dumb ass chinese pilot got too close for his own good and here is the result.
Made me laugh when the crew were relaesed because then the apology was withdrawn and quite rightly so.
Who cares what they do with the EP3 most of the intelligence was withdrawn anyway and the rest of it the chinese probably already knew so who cares a toss.
In my mind the chinese are full of crap, and are going the right way about making life difficult for themselves, because they need the US more than the US needs them.
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Better to be up there wishing you were down here than be down here wishing you were up there!
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Deeko1
Well wouldn't I just love to pull up outside your house with a pair of binoculars and a listening device. Wonder how long it would be before you came out and smacked me in the mouth!
The Yanks made a big issue out of this and the poor Chinese made to look bad for all the wrong reasons.
Yes the crew should have been returned immediately (to ease/maintain diplomatic relations)but the plane should be seized. I hope the Chinese get a lot out it.
KIFIS - Haven't forgotten the code! Hope to pick up a book to help in HKG early next month.
[This message has been edited by Icarus (edited 18 April 2001).]
Well wouldn't I just love to pull up outside your house with a pair of binoculars and a listening device. Wonder how long it would be before you came out and smacked me in the mouth!
The Yanks made a big issue out of this and the poor Chinese made to look bad for all the wrong reasons.
Yes the crew should have been returned immediately (to ease/maintain diplomatic relations)but the plane should be seized. I hope the Chinese get a lot out it.
KIFIS - Haven't forgotten the code! Hope to pick up a book to help in HKG early next month.
[This message has been edited by Icarus (edited 18 April 2001).]
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Icarus,
People all over America have scanners to listen in on cellphones and parabolic mikes. We don't mind at all, we simply buy better technology to protect us from it. We don't run out in the street and punch em in the mouth, and we don't ram their cars with our cars. If a cop saw me going down the street at 60 miles an hour tailgating another car by 3 feet, with today's roadrage laws I would arrested for reckless endangerment and quite possibly attempted murder.
We buy DIGITAL cellular phones and cordless phones instead of anolog. We put up firewalls on our computers, and we go on with our life.
We don't rush 60 miles off shore and attempt to murder 24 people.
China was required to allow that aircraft to land under international law. Their objection to it landing just proves that they follow no law and deserve to be treated like a rogue state.
Not much better than Iran, and maybe worse because not only are they proving to be outlaws, but they are stealing jobs, intelectual property and technology as well.
Cheers
Wino
[This message has been edited by Wino (edited 18 April 2001).]
People all over America have scanners to listen in on cellphones and parabolic mikes. We don't mind at all, we simply buy better technology to protect us from it. We don't run out in the street and punch em in the mouth, and we don't ram their cars with our cars. If a cop saw me going down the street at 60 miles an hour tailgating another car by 3 feet, with today's roadrage laws I would arrested for reckless endangerment and quite possibly attempted murder.
We buy DIGITAL cellular phones and cordless phones instead of anolog. We put up firewalls on our computers, and we go on with our life.
We don't rush 60 miles off shore and attempt to murder 24 people.
China was required to allow that aircraft to land under international law. Their objection to it landing just proves that they follow no law and deserve to be treated like a rogue state.
Not much better than Iran, and maybe worse because not only are they proving to be outlaws, but they are stealing jobs, intelectual property and technology as well.
Cheers
Wino
[This message has been edited by Wino (edited 18 April 2001).]
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Still don't understand why the chinese got that much upset about the whole thing.
How can they expect to get future support from the U.S. in any (political, economical, cultural/sports) way? Reminds me of the most stupid cold war rituals. Wonder if they ever return the plane. Likely that Taiwan will get more U.S. aid now.
How can they expect to get future support from the U.S. in any (political, economical, cultural/sports) way? Reminds me of the most stupid cold war rituals. Wonder if they ever return the plane. Likely that Taiwan will get more U.S. aid now.
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Kifis, being an Australian, I would suggest that you have more to fear from the Chinese than your provocative post suggests. It is quite clear that China has large expansionist ideas and without the restraining influence of the US would certainly have invaded Taiwan by now. Do you really think that they would stop there?
The loss of the spy plane is no big deal, it's all part of the game. However, China's petulant attitude is. If they want to play with the big boys and join the rest of the civilized world then it is about time they did some growing up.
The loss of the spy plane is no big deal, it's all part of the game. However, China's petulant attitude is. If they want to play with the big boys and join the rest of the civilized world then it is about time they did some growing up.
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From what I understand the EP3 crew said that the Chinese pilot saluted them before gesturing for their aircraft to move away. To me that would suggest a certain amount of respect from one military organisation to another.
It's a shame that the US was cracking open the yellow-ribbon and missing-hero boxes so early on in the game. I suppose Bush would have sent a Chinese spyplane and crew back home immediately, no questions asked. The hypocrisy is unbelievable.
It's a shame that the US was cracking open the yellow-ribbon and missing-hero boxes so early on in the game. I suppose Bush would have sent a Chinese spyplane and crew back home immediately, no questions asked. The hypocrisy is unbelievable.
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KIFIS,
Hey, if the Chinese had nothing to hide, they wouldn't be so concerned - right?
The Americans, French, Japanese, Australians, Mexicans, etc. have the right to fly any aircraft they want in international waters - that right is extended to anyone who wants to fly 12 miles off the coast of the US as well.
Only a blind idiot couldn't see that the Chinese pilot was incredibly reckless and cocky in his ludicrous actions. Have you seen the video of the very same pilot waving a piece of paper with his email address from his plane (the same identification number as the aircraft that crashed) on a previous reckless interception? Video proof of his recklessness - do you think they show that video on Chinese TV? No chance in hell...
The Chinese are guilty of taking hostages in a crisis they created themselves. What a joke!
Yeah, I'd like to see the Chinese fighter pilots try to do the same thing with a U.S. Navy F-18. It's easy to beat-up on a slower, bigger turboprop. I bet the F-18 pilot would teach the Chinese pilot some manners over international waters...
Hey, if the Chinese had nothing to hide, they wouldn't be so concerned - right?
The Americans, French, Japanese, Australians, Mexicans, etc. have the right to fly any aircraft they want in international waters - that right is extended to anyone who wants to fly 12 miles off the coast of the US as well.
Only a blind idiot couldn't see that the Chinese pilot was incredibly reckless and cocky in his ludicrous actions. Have you seen the video of the very same pilot waving a piece of paper with his email address from his plane (the same identification number as the aircraft that crashed) on a previous reckless interception? Video proof of his recklessness - do you think they show that video on Chinese TV? No chance in hell...
The Chinese are guilty of taking hostages in a crisis they created themselves. What a joke!
Yeah, I'd like to see the Chinese fighter pilots try to do the same thing with a U.S. Navy F-18. It's easy to beat-up on a slower, bigger turboprop. I bet the F-18 pilot would teach the Chinese pilot some manners over international waters...
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KFIS, if you are not a wind up you are truly a sad, sad, credulous dupe.
"Trespassing, intrusion, patriotism" indeed!
Your profile shows you to be a retired airline pilot. I wonder how you've got through a career like that without understanding concepts like "international waters", "international airspace", "piracy", good airmanship and the necessity for the free world to protect itself from dangerous maverick regimes cuch as the ludicrously misnamed "Peoples" "Republic" of China. Two lies for the price of none if ever there was one!
KFIS, your "patriotic" Wang Wei was a pretty poor example of a fighter pilot, he clearly let his temper/emotions get in the way of his flying as evidenced by the film of his idiotic behaviour waving bits of paper in the recently released film from Uncle Sam. Eventually he allowed the red mist to take over so much that he caused a mid air collision by flying into a lumbering old 1950s transport aeroplane in his super maneuverable fighter...! I wouldnt want a muppet like that in my squadron, even if it was a bicycle unit. Wang Wei was evidently an inept, unprofessional hot head and got what he deserved for perpetrating aerial piracy. Serve him right.
And you claim to believe the Chinese propaganda??
Open eyes, engage brain mate.
Omigod!
"Trespassing, intrusion, patriotism" indeed!
Your profile shows you to be a retired airline pilot. I wonder how you've got through a career like that without understanding concepts like "international waters", "international airspace", "piracy", good airmanship and the necessity for the free world to protect itself from dangerous maverick regimes cuch as the ludicrously misnamed "Peoples" "Republic" of China. Two lies for the price of none if ever there was one!
KFIS, your "patriotic" Wang Wei was a pretty poor example of a fighter pilot, he clearly let his temper/emotions get in the way of his flying as evidenced by the film of his idiotic behaviour waving bits of paper in the recently released film from Uncle Sam. Eventually he allowed the red mist to take over so much that he caused a mid air collision by flying into a lumbering old 1950s transport aeroplane in his super maneuverable fighter...! I wouldnt want a muppet like that in my squadron, even if it was a bicycle unit. Wang Wei was evidently an inept, unprofessional hot head and got what he deserved for perpetrating aerial piracy. Serve him right.
And you claim to believe the Chinese propaganda??
Open eyes, engage brain mate.
Omigod!
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Piston broke and LAVDUMPER
It is obvious that you two gentlemen do not understand patriotism and it is equally obvious that you are not made from the same clay as Wang Wei. You might care to know that as a long time pilot (and with fighter time behind me) I would feel very very comfortable with Wang Wei (or his ilk) tucked up close as my wingman. I salute his memory. (As will one quarter of the world population honour him tomorrow.)
KIFIS
P.S. As regards the F8 versus the F-18 I’d like to see that too. The problem is that if you managed to arrange a one on one the Americans would turn up with six.
It is obvious that you two gentlemen do not understand patriotism and it is equally obvious that you are not made from the same clay as Wang Wei. You might care to know that as a long time pilot (and with fighter time behind me) I would feel very very comfortable with Wang Wei (or his ilk) tucked up close as my wingman. I salute his memory. (As will one quarter of the world population honour him tomorrow.)
KIFIS
P.S. As regards the F8 versus the F-18 I’d like to see that too. The problem is that if you managed to arrange a one on one the Americans would turn up with six.
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Icarus
Good to see a cool head and some intelligent reasoning.
I haven't had any success with the Chinese code. Every avenue I've explored has brought up a " Too hard ". People shy off when they see the date 1910. Appreciate your efforts.
Regards,
KIFIS
Good to see a cool head and some intelligent reasoning.
I haven't had any success with the Chinese code. Every avenue I've explored has brought up a " Too hard ". People shy off when they see the date 1910. Appreciate your efforts.
Regards,
KIFIS
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KIFIS,
It is obvious you have not seen the video showing your favorite pilot "hotdogging" or flying recklessly-close in previous interceptions. The video is shown quite frequently here in the States - where the media is not controlled by the government.
The Chinese government has reason to surpress this video because it demonstrates how cocky and wild that pilot was - and that would destroy the Chinese "rally cry."
KIFIS, your bio claims that you were a former pilot. You are supposed to be familiar with concepts like "international airspace" and flying "professionally" vs. flying "provocatively." Do you honestly believe that a large, defenseless turboprop would act aggressively toward more-nimble Chinese fighters? Do you really? I can't tell if this post is a wind-up or not...
Do yourself a favor and check out CNN.com - you can find online videos of your esteemed Chinese pilot - pictures of him flying in a reckless manner (flying so close to another P-3 that you can see the hand-written sign he held-up in the cockpit showing his own email address - is that nuts?). Wow - what a great reason to be proud of him - he was a cocky pilot who endangered the lives of others over international waters...
This post really must be a wind-up. Or, it shows just how little of the truth the Chinese people are actually "given" by the Chinese government. Surely, just watching the video alone would demonstrate that this pilot had a history of flying in a wild manner. The Chinese pilot was a reckless jerk who was 100% responsible for the incident, case closed. Not so honorable, I would think...
[This message has been edited by LAVDUMPER (edited 19 April 2001).]
It is obvious you have not seen the video showing your favorite pilot "hotdogging" or flying recklessly-close in previous interceptions. The video is shown quite frequently here in the States - where the media is not controlled by the government.
The Chinese government has reason to surpress this video because it demonstrates how cocky and wild that pilot was - and that would destroy the Chinese "rally cry."
KIFIS, your bio claims that you were a former pilot. You are supposed to be familiar with concepts like "international airspace" and flying "professionally" vs. flying "provocatively." Do you honestly believe that a large, defenseless turboprop would act aggressively toward more-nimble Chinese fighters? Do you really? I can't tell if this post is a wind-up or not...
Do yourself a favor and check out CNN.com - you can find online videos of your esteemed Chinese pilot - pictures of him flying in a reckless manner (flying so close to another P-3 that you can see the hand-written sign he held-up in the cockpit showing his own email address - is that nuts?). Wow - what a great reason to be proud of him - he was a cocky pilot who endangered the lives of others over international waters...
This post really must be a wind-up. Or, it shows just how little of the truth the Chinese people are actually "given" by the Chinese government. Surely, just watching the video alone would demonstrate that this pilot had a history of flying in a wild manner. The Chinese pilot was a reckless jerk who was 100% responsible for the incident, case closed. Not so honorable, I would think...
[This message has been edited by LAVDUMPER (edited 19 April 2001).]
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Porpoise, you're comparing apples and oranges. I don't think the Canuk aircraft in question had both its radome and pitot tube missing and two of its engines shut down. Neiither do I think its crew were declaring a mayday at the time.
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As for the person who opened this thread with, among other ridiculous comments, the following: "No mention though of the panic that caused a perfectly flyable aircraft to be flung onto the nearest available airfield."
Hmmmm... So, after suffering a midair collision of unknown severity, where his aircraft:
- fell, uncontrolled, some 8000 feet
- suffered who knows what degree of overstress in the radical recovery he was forced to make,
- lost two engines, or 50% of his power plants,
- suffered a depressurisation, implying to the most inexperienced pilot that the aircraft might have suffered God only knows what degree of structural damage,
- lost its radome, (To the uninitiated, this alone, with none of the other problems, would have had a massive effect on the aircraft's handling, performance and specific air range.)
- lost its pitot system, (Again, for those not familiar with the term, this would have left the pilot without an airspeed indicator, [a minor matter to an ace like KIFIS].) I know, I know, he probably had a still serviceable INS...
- suffered damage to the flap system, (making a landing with no IAS even more interesting, to say nothing of a potential ditching, which is what he risked in turning for more 'friendly' territory).
I understand you call yourself a retired airline pilot, KIFIS. I'd love to see a potted history of your airline/fighter pilot ummm... career. I also understand you're an Australian. Rubbish the Yanks as mush as you like, but if you are an Australian, be very, very glad they're there "meddling" in the affairs of countries like China. Such "meddling" might keep you and your children speaking English into their old age.
[This message has been edited by Wiley (edited 19 April 2001).]
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As for the person who opened this thread with, among other ridiculous comments, the following: "No mention though of the panic that caused a perfectly flyable aircraft to be flung onto the nearest available airfield."
Hmmmm... So, after suffering a midair collision of unknown severity, where his aircraft:
- fell, uncontrolled, some 8000 feet
- suffered who knows what degree of overstress in the radical recovery he was forced to make,
- lost two engines, or 50% of his power plants,
- suffered a depressurisation, implying to the most inexperienced pilot that the aircraft might have suffered God only knows what degree of structural damage,
- lost its radome, (To the uninitiated, this alone, with none of the other problems, would have had a massive effect on the aircraft's handling, performance and specific air range.)
- lost its pitot system, (Again, for those not familiar with the term, this would have left the pilot without an airspeed indicator, [a minor matter to an ace like KIFIS].) I know, I know, he probably had a still serviceable INS...
- suffered damage to the flap system, (making a landing with no IAS even more interesting, to say nothing of a potential ditching, which is what he risked in turning for more 'friendly' territory).
I understand you call yourself a retired airline pilot, KIFIS. I'd love to see a potted history of your airline/fighter pilot ummm... career. I also understand you're an Australian. Rubbish the Yanks as mush as you like, but if you are an Australian, be very, very glad they're there "meddling" in the affairs of countries like China. Such "meddling" might keep you and your children speaking English into their old age.
[This message has been edited by Wiley (edited 19 April 2001).]
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KIFIS, if you need to worship Wang Wei's memory go here :
http://sg.netor.com/m/box200104/m60.asp?BoardID=60
Please don't come back.
Regards,
X-QUORK.
http://sg.netor.com/m/box200104/m60.asp?BoardID=60
Please don't come back.
Regards,
X-QUORK.
Guest
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I am just a pilot, not a politician nor a diplomat, so I'll leave out the discussion whether the EP3 was in "international Airspace" or not. I truly believe it was an accident. Could it have caused by the Chinese pilot or by the American pilots, we don't know for sure. As yet, there is no proof from the FDRs or other means to confirm or dispute the claim from either side. Regardless as to whose fault it was, no sane pilot will intentionally ram his/her plane against another plane, and size does not matter in anycase.
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Hey KIFIS,
Like someone else said, open eyes and engage brain.
Do you honestly believe the Chinese propaganda? China is a rogue nation, operating entirely outside international law. They have no regard for human rights, including yours.
Does it ever occur to you, that by having EP-3's do surveillance flights we are keeping this rabid dog on a very short leash. Probably not. United States, trhought their armed forces, is providing a stabilizing force in the world. You may not like it or find it incomprehensible, but United States will continue to do so. If China was such a peaceloving nation, then why object to overflights, why continue to build ICBM's?
United States is being kept at gunpoint by the Chinese, we are their biggest trading partner, bar none, without the American market, China would be in big dodo. So as much as we would like to put sanctions on them, it is not a viable option. So not only is the United States watching the Chinese making sure they play "nice", we are also paying them for it.
D8
Like someone else said, open eyes and engage brain.
Do you honestly believe the Chinese propaganda? China is a rogue nation, operating entirely outside international law. They have no regard for human rights, including yours.
Does it ever occur to you, that by having EP-3's do surveillance flights we are keeping this rabid dog on a very short leash. Probably not. United States, trhought their armed forces, is providing a stabilizing force in the world. You may not like it or find it incomprehensible, but United States will continue to do so. If China was such a peaceloving nation, then why object to overflights, why continue to build ICBM's?
United States is being kept at gunpoint by the Chinese, we are their biggest trading partner, bar none, without the American market, China would be in big dodo. So as much as we would like to put sanctions on them, it is not a viable option. So not only is the United States watching the Chinese making sure they play "nice", we are also paying them for it.
D8