Ryanair and 900 hours a year limitation?
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Are we talking here of the RyanAir that seems to think that, on a flight ex-of Shannon, it's ok to start engine 2 as per normal - but to start engine 1 during the taxi to the holding point for takeoff ?!
Now whilst it may save a minute or so, one might reasonably level the accusation of 'rushing the push, start & departure' (and they did) - where of course a mind-set of excessive haste within an airliner cockpit is a dangerous thing, i.e. never forget that it's always better to be one minute late in this life, rather than years early in the next !
In that respect, and philosophising aside, the big problem they have is that their training department is either stretched to the limit and / or woefully lacking in standards (and / or unable to enforce them), and this situation is made all the worse by a lack of a 'proper' / 'strong' oversight from the Irish authorities.
It would therefore come as no surprise that RyanAir push both the letter and the spirit of the FTL's to the limit - in order to maximise their profits, by needing less crews - but that's business.
Ultimately however, what they've got is a rapidly growing airline but without the checks-and-balances that are necessary to override commercial interests in favour of those of safety. This is bad / dangerous.
…………Ah well, it's just IMHO.
Now whilst it may save a minute or so, one might reasonably level the accusation of 'rushing the push, start & departure' (and they did) - where of course a mind-set of excessive haste within an airliner cockpit is a dangerous thing, i.e. never forget that it's always better to be one minute late in this life, rather than years early in the next !
In that respect, and philosophising aside, the big problem they have is that their training department is either stretched to the limit and / or woefully lacking in standards (and / or unable to enforce them), and this situation is made all the worse by a lack of a 'proper' / 'strong' oversight from the Irish authorities.
It would therefore come as no surprise that RyanAir push both the letter and the spirit of the FTL's to the limit - in order to maximise their profits, by needing less crews - but that's business.
Ultimately however, what they've got is a rapidly growing airline but without the checks-and-balances that are necessary to override commercial interests in favour of those of safety. This is bad / dangerous.
…………Ah well, it's just IMHO.
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Flying Irishman
The registration of the aircraft in not relevant in determining whether Ryanair is an Irish airline. The test under both EC legislation and the Chicago Convention is where an airline has it principal place of business. There is no accepted definition of principal place of business so far as I am aware. However I agree that the location of the company HQ and flt ops, together with significant services out of Ireland make it hard to argue that its principal place of business is not Ireland.
The registration of the aircraft in not relevant in determining whether Ryanair is an Irish airline. The test under both EC legislation and the Chicago Convention is where an airline has it principal place of business. There is no accepted definition of principal place of business so far as I am aware. However I agree that the location of the company HQ and flt ops, together with significant services out of Ireland make it hard to argue that its principal place of business is not Ireland.
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The company HQ and flight ops are based in Dublin, all the aircraft are Irish registered so that makes them an Irish airline.
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Within Europe, it does not matter where the company is based.
After all everyone is operating to JAR-OPS 1 requirements and with the exception of the UK using the same currency.
That is what an open market is all about.
Ryanair is an Irish run European Airline with bases in a number of countries. As long as the aircraft are registered in a European country, there is nothing anyone can say.
If the CAA can't talk to the IAA about any concerns then there is no point in UK operators crying.
FTL abuse is just as rife in the UK. Have a read of "Feedback" to see some of the reports.
DFC
After all everyone is operating to JAR-OPS 1 requirements and with the exception of the UK using the same currency.
That is what an open market is all about.
Ryanair is an Irish run European Airline with bases in a number of countries. As long as the aircraft are registered in a European country, there is nothing anyone can say.
If the CAA can't talk to the IAA about any concerns then there is no point in UK operators crying.
FTL abuse is just as rife in the UK. Have a read of "Feedback" to see some of the reports.
DFC
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Wrong on several counts, DFC.
Firstly, nothing like everyone is operating to JAR's yet. Secondly, even if they were, there are numerous "differences" filed from one state to the next, so there is less of a common denominator than you might expect. Thirdly, it is still up to the individual regulator to ensure compliance from airlines registered in their respective states. So if one regulator is unwilling or unable to apply the regulations correctly or at all, there is a resultant commercial advantage for those airlines, at the expense of safety.
Firstly, nothing like everyone is operating to JAR's yet. Secondly, even if they were, there are numerous "differences" filed from one state to the next, so there is less of a common denominator than you might expect. Thirdly, it is still up to the individual regulator to ensure compliance from airlines registered in their respective states. So if one regulator is unwilling or unable to apply the regulations correctly or at all, there is a resultant commercial advantage for those airlines, at the expense of safety.
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So let me get this straight.
The IAA, referred to in another thread as the downtown office of Aer Lingus, the same IAA which is 'owned' by the Dept. of Public Enterprise (until last week run by Mary O'Rourke, arch-enemy of MO'L) is dropping its pants and bending over to allow Ryanair to do as it wishes regardless of the spirit of the rules ? I would have thought they would have been looking for the slightest excuse to shaft Ryanair.
What am I missing ?
The IAA, referred to in another thread as the downtown office of Aer Lingus, the same IAA which is 'owned' by the Dept. of Public Enterprise (until last week run by Mary O'Rourke, arch-enemy of MO'L) is dropping its pants and bending over to allow Ryanair to do as it wishes regardless of the spirit of the rules ? I would have thought they would have been looking for the slightest excuse to shaft Ryanair.
What am I missing ?
Jet Blast Rat
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Mindthegap
Just a thought : if Ryan Air put pilots on leave if they approach or slightly overstep their 900 hours (the only reasonable response to this problem) then why are they changing to a common timing of the rollover? This would mean that towards the end of March all the pilots in the company that had come to this event (which if the pilots are worked as hard as rumour here has it must be quite a number) would be on leave. This would hit them with terrible rostering problems, and might tempt them into crew duty mishandlings similar to those of which AerLingus have been accused. Alternatively it would create huge cost burdens and terrible management dilemas (having to wet lease routes perhaps or cancel all other leave for this period) that will not be good for the airline.
Either way this seems a dangerous practice as has been suggested in previous posts.
Just a thought : if Ryan Air put pilots on leave if they approach or slightly overstep their 900 hours (the only reasonable response to this problem) then why are they changing to a common timing of the rollover? This would mean that towards the end of March all the pilots in the company that had come to this event (which if the pilots are worked as hard as rumour here has it must be quite a number) would be on leave. This would hit them with terrible rostering problems, and might tempt them into crew duty mishandlings similar to those of which AerLingus have been accused. Alternatively it would create huge cost burdens and terrible management dilemas (having to wet lease routes perhaps or cancel all other leave for this period) that will not be good for the airline.
Either way this seems a dangerous practice as has been suggested in previous posts.
Thread Starter
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Might it be that pilots are cheeper to hire in in the Winter than in the Summer.
Also it is a short term fix till the next year since this creative accounting ensures that all the pilots are in hours THIS summer. Next year is a way away and who knows the tricks to be employed then!!
Also it is a short term fix till the next year since this creative accounting ensures that all the pilots are in hours THIS summer. Next year is a way away and who knows the tricks to be employed then!!
Irish Aviation Authority
Some years ago, I wished to convert my UK licences to Irish CPL/IR and Instructor Rating. I was duly given flight tests, one after the other by a member of the IAA. (In fairness he did pass me) During the course of conversation, this gentleman revealed that the only licence he held was a PPL with less than 100hrs TT. He also went on to proudly proclaim that he was also the Irish representative on ICAO committees concerned with Airfields, Navigation, Licencing etc. for all of which he was equally unqualified. This level of expertise within the IAA in effect makes Aer Lingus self-regulating, I wonder whether their insurers realise the fact.
So, when one wonders at some of the absurdities being pushed out by the JAA, it should come as no surprise with so many little states punching above their weights.
And on a similar vein, an aquaintance strolled across the tarmac to visit a Ryanair 737 recently, to find the crew sleeping on the pax seats in the course of a 'split duty'. So here we have a foreign registered airline, but largely based in the UK, hammering the opposition, while enjoying a different set of rules, unfettered by the heavy hand of the CAA, overseen by ..... effectively, nobody.
So, when one wonders at some of the absurdities being pushed out by the JAA, it should come as no surprise with so many little states punching above their weights.
And on a similar vein, an aquaintance strolled across the tarmac to visit a Ryanair 737 recently, to find the crew sleeping on the pax seats in the course of a 'split duty'. So here we have a foreign registered airline, but largely based in the UK, hammering the opposition, while enjoying a different set of rules, unfettered by the heavy hand of the CAA, overseen by ..... effectively, nobody.
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SAFETY'S NO ACCIDENT - If your statement about a Ryanair a/c taxiing out and starting its second engine is true. What date and what flight number are we talking about?
I simply don't believe it!
I simply don't believe it!
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...900hrs in ANY calendar year."
I believe this is the statement in the Statutory Instruments that Ryanair has decided to interpret as 01st April to 31st March. Would a lawyer be able to stand up in court and argue in favour of Ryanair's interpretation?
Don't a number of European states allow 1000hrs / year?
At the end of the day a guy will fly 900hrs maximum inside this specified 12 month period.
I believe this is the statement in the Statutory Instruments that Ryanair has decided to interpret as 01st April to 31st March. Would a lawyer be able to stand up in court and argue in favour of Ryanair's interpretation?
Don't a number of European states allow 1000hrs / year?
At the end of the day a guy will fly 900hrs maximum inside this specified 12 month period.
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Deferred Engine Start
Jambo Buana,
I don't know about the 737, having never flown it, but 2 other twinjets I have flown had "Deferred Engine Start" procedures which allowed you to taxi out on one engine - nothing wrong with it as long as the procedures are observed. In fact the manufacturer even recommended the practise. The purpose was fuel saving rather than time saving which seemed to be implied in an earlier post.
RAGBAG
I don't know about the 737, having never flown it, but 2 other twinjets I have flown had "Deferred Engine Start" procedures which allowed you to taxi out on one engine - nothing wrong with it as long as the procedures are observed. In fact the manufacturer even recommended the practise. The purpose was fuel saving rather than time saving which seemed to be implied in an earlier post.
RAGBAG
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It could be attempted in the 737, however, quite complicated in terms of set up and also quite attention demanding. The Ryanair SOP's certainly don't cover this kind of non-normal activity. That is why I don't believe it ever happened in the first place.
Possibly the crew had to taxy to a remote area for a crossbleed start. In which case a single engine taxy may have occured. Knowing the ramp at Shannon well however, I doubt this theory.
Every airline has a few plonkers, but I don't think an FO or Capt in Ryanair would do something like this purely to save time.
Possibly the crew had to taxy to a remote area for a crossbleed start. In which case a single engine taxy may have occured. Knowing the ramp at Shannon well however, I doubt this theory.
Every airline has a few plonkers, but I don't think an FO or Capt in Ryanair would do something like this purely to save time.
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Give them (FR) enough rope and they'll hang themselves eventually. Its the innocent people down the back that they will take with them when the time comes (and the way things are going IT WILL COME) that really upsets me.
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900 hours a year at ryanair
Basil faulty
what kind of statement is that to come out with. If you are a pilot you should be ashamed of your self to wish that on anyone. If some incident did occur, would you sit back and wring your hands saying ' I told you'. what exactly do you have to say about the people that work for Ryanair.
what kind of statement is that to come out with. If you are a pilot you should be ashamed of your self to wish that on anyone. If some incident did occur, would you sit back and wring your hands saying ' I told you'. what exactly do you have to say about the people that work for Ryanair.
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brownstar,
I suggest you reread my post I'm not wishing anything on anybody. I hope an "incident" does not occur, but under the current company culture I think one will, sooner or later. Standards and limits exist for a purpose, and to keep pushing the boundaries in this and other ways is good for nobody. Personally I would not fly for/on Ryanair if it were the last airline on earth. That is my personal opinion, and thats what 99% of these forums are...personal opinions. What you or others do is entirely up to you, but if you feel FR are above criticism or debate then I'm afraid we have a disagreement here.
I suggest you reread my post I'm not wishing anything on anybody. I hope an "incident" does not occur, but under the current company culture I think one will, sooner or later. Standards and limits exist for a purpose, and to keep pushing the boundaries in this and other ways is good for nobody. Personally I would not fly for/on Ryanair if it were the last airline on earth. That is my personal opinion, and thats what 99% of these forums are...personal opinions. What you or others do is entirely up to you, but if you feel FR are above criticism or debate then I'm afraid we have a disagreement here.
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Jambo Buana - I personally wasn't on the flight in question, but my Chairman was - and let's just say that he's a chap who's more than a little familiar with aviation; i.e. not just as a pax.
Indeed, paraphrasing what he said (and in order to save a few blushes on either side), "One might give them a try just the once, but never, ever, again !"
Indeed, paraphrasing what he said (and in order to save a few blushes on either side), "One might give them a try just the once, but never, ever, again !"
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Cant understand the anti-ryan tone of so many contributors.On the issue of 900hrs,this is applied in ryanair ops,runs fm 1 april to31march, and if anyone goes over 900 they are grounded for a full month. this applied to at least 4 of us in Stn last year.
What is totally offside is the stupid comments fm others re safety. I reckon ryan has been flying for 15 years now without incident, due in lerge measure to excellent pilots, great training, 20new 800's and 100 more on way. Criticise fares policies,mol all u like but not our safety standards & record. 15years, 12m pax p.a.,speaks for itself, and as Roy Keane might say -''f--k de begrudgers'.'
What is totally offside is the stupid comments fm others re safety. I reckon ryan has been flying for 15 years now without incident, due in lerge measure to excellent pilots, great training, 20new 800's and 100 more on way. Criticise fares policies,mol all u like but not our safety standards & record. 15years, 12m pax p.a.,speaks for itself, and as Roy Keane might say -''f--k de begrudgers'.'
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ILUV2FLY,
Thanks for actually providing facts. All these "safety concerns" people apparently know about don't refer to any facts. If Ryanair's operation was as dodgy as people claim, the IAA would have stepped in long ago. This hasn't happened and according to their spokesperson there is nothing to be concerned about regarding safety.
As you say, 15 years of safe operations and 12m passengers p.a. speaks for itself.
Thanks for actually providing facts. All these "safety concerns" people apparently know about don't refer to any facts. If Ryanair's operation was as dodgy as people claim, the IAA would have stepped in long ago. This hasn't happened and according to their spokesperson there is nothing to be concerned about regarding safety.
As you say, 15 years of safe operations and 12m passengers p.a. speaks for itself.
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FlyingIrishman, ILUV2FLY,
What happens in the next ten minutes is infinately more important than what has happened over the last 15 years of FR's history. I was refering to what might potentially happen in the future. With regards to the plentitude of "safety concern" chat that is going around right now, isn't there an old line that says "no smoke without fire"? I sincerely hope that the IAA actually do have the balls to act if and when they need to, hopefully they will not be out on a long lunch or something.
Regards
What happens in the next ten minutes is infinately more important than what has happened over the last 15 years of FR's history. I was refering to what might potentially happen in the future. With regards to the plentitude of "safety concern" chat that is going around right now, isn't there an old line that says "no smoke without fire"? I sincerely hope that the IAA actually do have the balls to act if and when they need to, hopefully they will not be out on a long lunch or something.
Regards