Aer Lingus suspends pilots & ops (merged)
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oneworld union
Perhaps it's time for the pilot groups of the major alliances to form their own "union". How long before STAR management begins to follow oneworld's lead?
It may be that EI management was just "probing the wire" to see how strongly the pilots of a financially troubled airline would react.
Thank God the EI pilots have the fortitude to stand up to their management. Stand by for the next attack.TC
It may be that EI management was just "probing the wire" to see how strongly the pilots of a financially troubled airline would react.
Thank God the EI pilots have the fortitude to stand up to their management. Stand by for the next attack.TC
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Customers make pay days possible
My earlier post was prompted by a perception of a lack of commerciality (is that a real word?) in the many interesting posts on this thread.
Of course I want to fly on a safe airline with contented and rested crews but I am also keen to fly on a profitable airline as my experience of business is that profits are the secret to a good, secure and continuing company. Therefore I am eager to know that management is concerned with my comfort and safety but I will be very concerned indeed if they do not see me as a source of profit. A customer who does not generate a profit is seldom worth having and is unlikely to be cared for.
Businesses are run for profit not for their staff or their customers - however sensible managers soon recognise that the only way to regular profits is contented customers and that the best way of securing these is contented staff.
"A good pool of pilots is worth its weight in gold..." - Yes of course but only if they earn a profit.
I do apologise as a non-professional pilot if this sounds patronising. I do not mean to be so and I agree that most of my comments are truisms. However pilots could do so much more to recognise the truth of my headline. We are the point of it all not just SLF
My earlier post was prompted by a perception of a lack of commerciality (is that a real word?) in the many interesting posts on this thread.
Of course I want to fly on a safe airline with contented and rested crews but I am also keen to fly on a profitable airline as my experience of business is that profits are the secret to a good, secure and continuing company. Therefore I am eager to know that management is concerned with my comfort and safety but I will be very concerned indeed if they do not see me as a source of profit. A customer who does not generate a profit is seldom worth having and is unlikely to be cared for.
Businesses are run for profit not for their staff or their customers - however sensible managers soon recognise that the only way to regular profits is contented customers and that the best way of securing these is contented staff.
"A good pool of pilots is worth its weight in gold..." - Yes of course but only if they earn a profit.
I do apologise as a non-professional pilot if this sounds patronising. I do not mean to be so and I agree that most of my comments are truisms. However pilots could do so much more to recognise the truth of my headline. We are the point of it all not just SLF
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Quite so, Baily.
I do not wish to work for an airline that is about to sink financially. I will not work for an airline that is so desperate to make a profit that they will quite blatantly erode safety margins.
"Management" is about leadership. You enthuse your workforce to the point that they are as committed to the future of the company and its success (and the means of obtaining those goals) as you are. In a revolting cliche, you ensure you are all singing from the same hymn-sheet.
You do not see yourself as the captain of the ship up on the quarterdeck, the pilots as the galley-slaves who need to be whipped just that little bit harder before you can go waterskiing.
If AL cannot function commercially within safe limits, then it is probably better that they go down before they have a severe and fatal accident.
However, I doubt that this is the case, and I would not wish unemployment on any of their staff. Instead, I would suggest that it is probably time they re-evaluated their entire cost structure and their investment in their least replaceable asset - their crews' training and experience.
I do not wish to work for an airline that is about to sink financially. I will not work for an airline that is so desperate to make a profit that they will quite blatantly erode safety margins.
"Management" is about leadership. You enthuse your workforce to the point that they are as committed to the future of the company and its success (and the means of obtaining those goals) as you are. In a revolting cliche, you ensure you are all singing from the same hymn-sheet.
You do not see yourself as the captain of the ship up on the quarterdeck, the pilots as the galley-slaves who need to be whipped just that little bit harder before you can go waterskiing.
If AL cannot function commercially within safe limits, then it is probably better that they go down before they have a severe and fatal accident.
However, I doubt that this is the case, and I would not wish unemployment on any of their staff. Instead, I would suggest that it is probably time they re-evaluated their entire cost structure and their investment in their least replaceable asset - their crews' training and experience.
Captain Stable:
I had rather hoped that I would not be writing to you so soon but your latest posting is just so full of the most high-flying prose that I think sick bags might be needed all round. What a wonderful lecture in leadership and all that is great in the world it is!
I am beginning to think that you are not long out of the Directorate of Flight Safety in MOD (or whatever they call it nowadays) and have not really been anywhere else in the outside world for any length of time.
Try to keep it short, precise and to the point.
PS. Well done to the Aer Lingus guys. I hope things go well for you from here on in.
I had rather hoped that I would not be writing to you so soon but your latest posting is just so full of the most high-flying prose that I think sick bags might be needed all round. What a wonderful lecture in leadership and all that is great in the world it is!
I am beginning to think that you are not long out of the Directorate of Flight Safety in MOD (or whatever they call it nowadays) and have not really been anywhere else in the outside world for any length of time.
Try to keep it short, precise and to the point.
PS. Well done to the Aer Lingus guys. I hope things go well for you from here on in.
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Well done EI pilots!!
However, you wont see me on an EI flight unless it is DUB/AMS. Your great management scared me away over 4 years ago. If their is compition, I am on it. I suggest you do the same if you get the opertunity. EI can not be long for this world
.
However, you wont see me on an EI flight unless it is DUB/AMS. Your great management scared me away over 4 years ago. If their is compition, I am on it. I suggest you do the same if you get the opertunity. EI can not be long for this world
.
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As always with life, there are of course two sides to every story. What we have on this thread is one very obvious side, which is perfectly understandable as this is a pilots forum, but as I've said there is another side to this as well. Anyone who has worked in Dublin airport and has had dealings with certain "groups" will know exactly what I mean.
Last edited by OneWorld22; 3rd Jun 2002 at 21:50.
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Captain Stable
... your latest posting is just so full of the most high-flying prose that I think sick bags might be needed all round...
... your latest posting is just so full of the most high-flying prose that I think sick bags might be needed all round...
This remark seems both unnecessary and inaccurate. This is a serious subject as it has ramifications outside just Aer Lingus.
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I'm just back from a weekend 'hedonistic beano' to the Costas and was booked with EI DUB-AGP-DUB, ended up doing DUB-BCN-AGP-BCN-LHR-BHD, all the One World and bmi ground staff esp. the people from Iberia, did a fantastic job at every change over sorting tkt changes and missing bags etc.
The 'self loaders' that I got speaking to at various times in the whole did not bear a grudge with our EI colleagues for a 1 day stoppage, but they could not comprehend why after the 24hrs that it was the management refusing to let the aircraft fly.
The 'self loaders' that I got speaking to at various times in the whole did not bear a grudge with our EI colleagues for a 1 day stoppage, but they could not comprehend why after the 24hrs that it was the management refusing to let the aircraft fly.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Are there any details yet of the 'acceptance' of the proposals that akerosid mentioned?
Duty + 2 hours or 12 hrs min, is what was quoted, and I understand from akerosid's post that this was a 'reduction' from the previous industrial agreement?
Can anyone in AL confirm?
Duty + 2 hours or 12 hrs min, is what was quoted, and I understand from akerosid's post that this was a 'reduction' from the previous industrial agreement?
Can anyone in AL confirm?
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OK.. so whats the deal.. are you boys flying again?
The news quotes AirLingus as flying again after "the pilots walked out for 5 days" !!!
Who locked who out? I would be proud of the useless PR department that you pilots use..
Me?, I'm just a lowly biz-pilot who uses the airlines occasionally..hence am just joe public..
edited as it came across a bit harsh.. what I wanted to say is that the media once again gets it wrong.. journo-twats
The news quotes AirLingus as flying again after "the pilots walked out for 5 days" !!!
Who locked who out? I would be proud of the useless PR department that you pilots use..
Me?, I'm just a lowly biz-pilot who uses the airlines occasionally..hence am just joe public..
edited as it came across a bit harsh.. what I wanted to say is that the media once again gets it wrong.. journo-twats
Last edited by LRdriver; 4th Jun 2002 at 14:27.
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Yes folks, it's over. First round anyhow.
The Pilots Association executive recomended the Labour Court deal to the members last night. There was a heavy 4.5 hour debate with the mood swinging either way at various stages, but in the end it was carried by a massive majority in favour.
A lot of people are not happy to have had to accept this. The alternative (rejecting the executives recomendation) was even more unpleasant. At least we've walked away with our solidarity in tact. We are ready to hold the line of resistance and advance it in the future.
The few tweaks that the final deal hinged on could have been agreed without the companies bizarre lockout. They disrupted our customers unnecessarily for four days because it has gained them nothing in the end.
In that respect....they lost this one hands down.
BTW, the 10 hour rest item was made 'discretionary' under the LRC deal. I know how I'll be dealing with that one.
Resign Henry. You're a disgrace. We have no further confidence in you or your puppetmaster WW.
The Pilots Association executive recomended the Labour Court deal to the members last night. There was a heavy 4.5 hour debate with the mood swinging either way at various stages, but in the end it was carried by a massive majority in favour.
A lot of people are not happy to have had to accept this. The alternative (rejecting the executives recomendation) was even more unpleasant. At least we've walked away with our solidarity in tact. We are ready to hold the line of resistance and advance it in the future.
The few tweaks that the final deal hinged on could have been agreed without the companies bizarre lockout. They disrupted our customers unnecessarily for four days because it has gained them nothing in the end.
In that respect....they lost this one hands down.
BTW, the 10 hour rest item was made 'discretionary' under the LRC deal. I know how I'll be dealing with that one.
Resign Henry. You're a disgrace. We have no further confidence in you or your puppetmaster WW.
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Well done Willie, you shut down the airline for a week and a cost in the region of €15m. That does not in include the costs of litigation, which will ensue. It also does not include the lost revenue from pax who realise that you don't give a damn about them.
What have you achieved. You sought to break IALPA and throw our working arrangements in the bin, leaving pilots to operate to non-existant IAA limits. This would have meant 10 hour turnarounds and pilots having fewer days off than 9-5ers. You achieved a one hour reduction 'n minimum rest to 12 hours and 2 fewer days off per year. Six times a year you can request our cooperation to operate a 10 hour turnaound. How many times will we oblige?
Was it worth it? IALPA is now more united than at any time in its history. You have had to reinstate our 7 suspended colleagues with back pay. Your attempt to lock us out without pay has been deemed illegal. Our working conditions with their minor alterations are now enshrined in a Labour Court ruling. We have held the line and now we will advance it.
Was it worth it? You have shown yourself for what you are. Not the evil genius we had built you up as, but a second rate bully with the strategic vision of a demented baboon.
Now it's back to us and our frontline colleagues to try and repair some of the damage to our reputation, if it isn't too late already.
Some survival plan.
What have you achieved. You sought to break IALPA and throw our working arrangements in the bin, leaving pilots to operate to non-existant IAA limits. This would have meant 10 hour turnarounds and pilots having fewer days off than 9-5ers. You achieved a one hour reduction 'n minimum rest to 12 hours and 2 fewer days off per year. Six times a year you can request our cooperation to operate a 10 hour turnaound. How many times will we oblige?
Was it worth it? IALPA is now more united than at any time in its history. You have had to reinstate our 7 suspended colleagues with back pay. Your attempt to lock us out without pay has been deemed illegal. Our working conditions with their minor alterations are now enshrined in a Labour Court ruling. We have held the line and now we will advance it.
Was it worth it? You have shown yourself for what you are. Not the evil genius we had built you up as, but a second rate bully with the strategic vision of a demented baboon.
Now it's back to us and our frontline colleagues to try and repair some of the damage to our reputation, if it isn't too late already.
Some survival plan.
Paxing All Over The World
Speaking from the outside ... there will only be one loser from this: Everyone.
Looking in the paper (The Independent) (London as opposed to Dublin) they refer to the ratio of staff to aircraft and compare them, naturally, with Ryan. I know that is an unfair comparison but somewhere there has to be a half way house. I doubt if the paying public will care very much who finds it first. If they (airline customers) discover that they DO care about minimum service and so forth it will, of course, be too late!
I don't think anyone comes out of this looking god.
Looking in the paper (The Independent) (London as opposed to Dublin) they refer to the ratio of staff to aircraft and compare them, naturally, with Ryan. I know that is an unfair comparison but somewhere there has to be a half way house. I doubt if the paying public will care very much who finds it first. If they (airline customers) discover that they DO care about minimum service and so forth it will, of course, be too late!
I don't think anyone comes out of this looking god.
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PAXboy, being a 'civilian' I wouldn't expect you to understand the tedious technical details of airline crewing, so I'll put it as simply as I can for you.
A) Ryanair do not operate long haul heavy crew routes. Does that mean anything to you?
Probably not...but who cares, eh...least of all you I expect.
B) The mainstay of the Aer Lingus medium haul fleet is the A321/0. None of the 'no frills' companies have ever bought an airbus aircraft. Do you know the reason why...or the implications that has for crewing?
Thought not.
Get down the back and just drink your G&T you numbskull.
A) Ryanair do not operate long haul heavy crew routes. Does that mean anything to you?
Probably not...but who cares, eh...least of all you I expect.
B) The mainstay of the Aer Lingus medium haul fleet is the A321/0. None of the 'no frills' companies have ever bought an airbus aircraft. Do you know the reason why...or the implications that has for crewing?
Thought not.
Get down the back and just drink your G&T you numbskull.
Paxing All Over The World
Dear Idunno,
Let me put it as simply as possible. I was not attempting to draw comparisons between AI and Ryan, only commenting that the media and general populace will. If you trouble yourself to read my original post you will see words like, "I know that is an unfair comparison". You will also see that I muse upon the fact that - should EI fail - the fare paying public will only realise too late what they have. If that is not sympathy for the airline business, then I am not sure what is.
>A) Ryanair do not operate long haul heavy crew routes. Does that mean anything to you?
Of course they don't. Did I say that they did?
>Probably not...but who cares, eh...least of all you I expect.
I am concerned that you think I said things that I did not. The dispute is primarily about long haul and the turn around times for crew. Management want to move from 13 to 10 hour turns on long haul, to realise savings. Flight crew are concerned at the way this could impinge on saftey standards. Crew are also concerned that management is not making enough cost and head count savings on the home front. I stand to be corrected.
>B) The mainstay of the Aer Lingus medium haul fleet is the A321/0. None of the 'no frills' companies have ever bought an airbus aircraft.
So I understand. They have different requirements. One of which is that, there are more flight crew qualified on Boeings than anything else (for obvious reasons) and that will save them costs in their recruitment and operations.
>Do you know the reason why...or the implications that has for crewing?
If I do not, I am sure that you will be so kind as to tell me!
>Thought not.
>Get down the back and just drink your G&T you numbskull.
I think that you meant to say, "Welcome aboard and thank you for paying my salary."
Thought not.
To show, further, how the issue is being played, this from The Independent:
Let me put it as simply as possible. I was not attempting to draw comparisons between AI and Ryan, only commenting that the media and general populace will. If you trouble yourself to read my original post you will see words like, "I know that is an unfair comparison". You will also see that I muse upon the fact that - should EI fail - the fare paying public will only realise too late what they have. If that is not sympathy for the airline business, then I am not sure what is.
>A) Ryanair do not operate long haul heavy crew routes. Does that mean anything to you?
Of course they don't. Did I say that they did?
>Probably not...but who cares, eh...least of all you I expect.
I am concerned that you think I said things that I did not. The dispute is primarily about long haul and the turn around times for crew. Management want to move from 13 to 10 hour turns on long haul, to realise savings. Flight crew are concerned at the way this could impinge on saftey standards. Crew are also concerned that management is not making enough cost and head count savings on the home front. I stand to be corrected.
>B) The mainstay of the Aer Lingus medium haul fleet is the A321/0. None of the 'no frills' companies have ever bought an airbus aircraft.
So I understand. They have different requirements. One of which is that, there are more flight crew qualified on Boeings than anything else (for obvious reasons) and that will save them costs in their recruitment and operations.
>Do you know the reason why...or the implications that has for crewing?
If I do not, I am sure that you will be so kind as to tell me!
>Thought not.
>Get down the back and just drink your G&T you numbskull.
I think that you meant to say, "Welcome aboard and thank you for paying my salary."
Thought not.
To show, further, how the issue is being played, this from The Independent:
There is little public sympathy for the pilots, whom most people think are mollycoddled. Confidence in a once-proud symbol of a small, independent nation has all but vanished. Little wonder Bertie Ahern, the Taoiseach, had to tell Mr Walsh and the pilots to "cop themselves on"
Last edited by PAXboy; 5th Jun 2002 at 01:07.
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The Independent carried a rather unfavorable brief story on the stike, and its settlement, today. Here is the link and here is the story:
Pilots bring Celtic tiger down to earth
By Katherine Butler
05 June 2002
How many pilots does it take to bring Europe's most dynamic economy to a juddering halt? Apparently 537. That is the number of pilots that the Irish carrier Aer Lingus employs to fly its 33 aircraft.
Today the struggling state-backed airline is resuming services after Impact, the unfortunately named pilots' union, voted to end an industrial dispute. The row erupted when the airline's no-frills boss, Willie Walsh, (nickname Boxcar Willie) told the pilots they would have to fly more and cut the minimum 13-hour rest between flights.
A one-day stoppage led to havoc: the fleet was grounded for five days over the busiest holiday weekend of the summer. Weddings, funerals and World Cup departures were missed, business deals put on ice and holidays ruined in departure halls. Public anger grew when Aer Lingus offered only minimal refunds. The lucky had to buy tickets at inflated prices from rival airlines; the unlucky are still waiting. One couple's odyssey from Boston took them to New York, London, Glasgow and Belfast and the last leg to Dublin on a rickety bus.
Aer Lingus carries 40 per cent of passengers arriving in Ireland but is under relentless pressure from low-cost rivals. It came close to collapse after 11 September and has now lost €6m (£3.86m) in five days. There is little public sympathy for the pilots, whom most people think are mollycoddled. Confidence in a once-proud symbol of a small, independent nation has all but vanished. Little wonder Bertie Ahern, the Taoiseach, had to tell Mr Walsh and the pilots to "cop themselves on".
Pilots bring Celtic tiger down to earth
By Katherine Butler
05 June 2002
How many pilots does it take to bring Europe's most dynamic economy to a juddering halt? Apparently 537. That is the number of pilots that the Irish carrier Aer Lingus employs to fly its 33 aircraft.
Today the struggling state-backed airline is resuming services after Impact, the unfortunately named pilots' union, voted to end an industrial dispute. The row erupted when the airline's no-frills boss, Willie Walsh, (nickname Boxcar Willie) told the pilots they would have to fly more and cut the minimum 13-hour rest between flights.
A one-day stoppage led to havoc: the fleet was grounded for five days over the busiest holiday weekend of the summer. Weddings, funerals and World Cup departures were missed, business deals put on ice and holidays ruined in departure halls. Public anger grew when Aer Lingus offered only minimal refunds. The lucky had to buy tickets at inflated prices from rival airlines; the unlucky are still waiting. One couple's odyssey from Boston took them to New York, London, Glasgow and Belfast and the last leg to Dublin on a rickety bus.
Aer Lingus carries 40 per cent of passengers arriving in Ireland but is under relentless pressure from low-cost rivals. It came close to collapse after 11 September and has now lost €6m (£3.86m) in five days. There is little public sympathy for the pilots, whom most people think are mollycoddled. Confidence in a once-proud symbol of a small, independent nation has all but vanished. Little wonder Bertie Ahern, the Taoiseach, had to tell Mr Walsh and the pilots to "cop themselves on".
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IDUNNO
I sympathise that you and your collegues have been through a lot recently. But is drirecting your frustrations at the public (who may or mat not be as well informed on the finer points of running an airline) who frequent this forum and answering your "own" questions to him in your posts really isn't going to further your cause.
Why not explain to PAXBOY the differences between Ryan Air and AL before condeming him as alcohol swiging idiot. He could be one of those people who decides HOW his 30 executives travel and WHO they travel with every year.
Why not explain to PAXBOY the differences between Ryan Air and AL before condeming him as alcohol swiging idiot. He could be one of those people who decides HOW his 30 executives travel and WHO they travel with every year.