PPRuNe Forums

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Closed Thread
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 11th Mar 2014, 16:39   #1821 (permalink)
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 58
Posts: 4,916
Originally Posted by Thomas Doubting View Post
It seems quite a big deal to me, due elapsed time and the amount of SAR effort expended in the Gulf of Thailand.
Thomas. Please go back to my post that begins "In defense of Malaysian Authorities." (No, I am not Malaysian, but I made a port call in Penang once).
With contradictory information to hand, seems prudent to search in both areas that may be where one should start while resolving the contradiction in the data available. (That, and maybe saving some face if, for example, at zero dark thirty in the morning one of the radar operators was ... asleep at his post? Don't know, but that might explain why it took a while to uncover what that radar sight had painted that evening ... I admit I am guessing on that but it fits within three sigma what happens to some people on the graveyard shift).
My earlier post was deleted, but the point I tried to make was that the Malaysian Air Force must also know which way it was heading, but haven’t said so.
See above. Not necessarily so until later it became evident what their radar had seen. Add some face saving ... presto, it begins to make some sense.
To Pulau Perak From their previous position was approx hdg 250. To KUL hdg 140 and 240nm, to PEN 107 and 80nm. Continuing on 250 would put them in the mountains and jungle of Northern Sumatra.
What if they were having a hard time maintaining a constant heading? Something, or a number of somethings, were not quite right with this flight. When the radar track info is made public, if it ever is, it will be interesting to see what flight path that aircraft followed once it left the route toward PEK.
Lonewolf_50 is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2014, 16:44   #1822 (permalink)
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 431
None of this seems to make any sense. I think we can put to bed the possibility of terrorism. At least in terms of a large scale organised plot. There have been no claims of responsibility for this event. That tells its own story. Any opportunistic terror group who saw an opportunity to claim responsibility but were subsequently shown to be talking out of their collective asses when the aircraft was found and no foul play was evident would instantly lose any credibility whatsoever and therefore much of their fear factor in the process. Do not think terrorist groups are not aware of this.
RexBanner is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2014, 16:47   #1823 (permalink)
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: London, England
Age: 69
Posts: 2
Face saving exercises

If as now appears to be the case the Malaysian military were aware that there was a 777 heading west over the Malay peninsula in the early hours of Saturday morning they presumably did not simply ignore it and do nothing but would have sought authority either to intercept and identify or intercept and force it to land. They could of course have been told to ignore it but that would be a positive decision by a senior officer or a politician. Obviously there are therefore many people who risk losing face and the more senior they are the greater the potential loss of face. Their vested interests will make it progressively harder to "do the right thing", whatever that may be.

The longer the SAR mission lasts the greater the potential humiliation , whatever the real cause was and whatever the outcome for the flight. Perhaps the only way to break the seeming deadlock is for an outside party to produce evidence eg the alleged mayday message received by the US/Royal Thai Navy AFB at U-Tapao?
wiggy97 is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2014, 16:47   #1824 (permalink)
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Singapore
Posts: 12
Malaysians saving face?

Having worked in Singapore/Malaysia for nearly 20 years, I don't believe this stuff about the Malaysians 'covering up' what they know for days, just to save face. They're pretty clued up at senior levels (even if performances at press conferences are not very impressive). They're not stupid enough to think that with ships, aircraft and miscellaneous technically expert personnel of sundry countries running around the search area(s), monitoring every bit of equipment they can lay hands on, they would be able to cover up anything really significant for any time. 'Face' is important in this part of the world, but not to such a lunatic extent. Seems much more likely that they've been working with unconfirmed information, and pending confirmation they've been hedging their bets as to search locations. Isn't that what anyone sensible would do? For all we know they have been sharing unconfirmed information with their international collaborators in the search effort.

Similarly with the passports. They didn't release information publicly until they had something solid to release (and until they had spoken in Frankfurt to the mother of that poor chap, not least). Fair enough, it seems to me.
marconiphone is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2014, 16:48   #1825 (permalink)
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Hy Brasil
Posts: 98
Sky reports different heading.

Sky news is reporting on TV that the military tracked the a/c heading towards the straits of malacca.

Flight MH370: 13 Things You Need To Know

Malaysia Airlines Plane: What Has Happened?

The sky picture shows that the Straits are much further south than the previous expected course.
Harry O is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2014, 16:50   #1826 (permalink)
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 19
FMS Data base

The 777 use Honeywell FMS system, There are several AD on the FMS. United airlines had an incident in a B747 a few years back, the FMS guided the airplane parallel to the Runway basically offset with a mile over the water in SFO.

Honeywell have had numerous problems with the data base, further you fly greater error.
peteroja is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2014, 16:54   #1827 (permalink)
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Hy Brasil
Posts: 98
Military confirm course change.

Military confirm it turned and flew hundreds of km's away from course.
Yahoo News UK & Ireland - Latest World News & UK News Headlines
Harry O is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2014, 16:55   #1828 (permalink)
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: redmond
Age: 82
Posts: 61

If I recall correctly - there is a local time zone difference of one hour between takeoff in Lampur and area of disappearance. IF so, why in the world does the press and way too many reports make a big deal of ' military ' radarr tracking plane about 1 hour after loss of contact when actually it is the same GMT ?...

About the only theory missing from widespread publication is that the plane was secretly refueled and is now in Area 51 . ...
DWS is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2014, 17:02   #1829 (permalink)
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Canada / Switzerland
Posts: 504
Originally Posted by Mike-Bracknell View Post
Why do neither of these ELTs appear to have a buoy attached such that it would float?
The basic (fixed) ELT is attached to the aircraft fuselage, usually in an inaccessible spot. It is intended for use on land only.

It is entirely possible that the maritime ELT (the long thin tube, pictured earlier) does float. I can't think of any reason for that 1 meter long tubular design other than to provide flotation with the antenna pointed up. Normal fixed ELTs are rectangular and no bigger than a carton of cigarettes.
V1... Ooops is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2014, 17:13   #1830 (permalink)
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 34
Flight deck oxygen fire? IFE fire maybe? Cargo fire?

It's all happened before quite recently.
paddy_22002 is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2014, 17:21   #1831 (permalink)
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Earth
Posts: 56
Arrow FANS and ACARS

The earlier message about ACARS messages referred to maintenance messages. Maintenance information is only sent when there is something to report. (Boeing calls this service Aircraft Health Management and messages are sent to the airline AOC and Boeing). With AF447, the equivalent Airbus service sent messages as many aircraft systems were functioning normally for a while during the event.

Was the MH370 aircraft equipped (or enabled) with FANS? Was it using ADS-C? I'm curious why we haven't heard more about FANS messages, which could have transmitted position information as long as the aircraft had power.
Feathered is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2014, 17:23   #1832 (permalink)
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: France
Posts: 16
CCTV - Already been discussed, way way back.
alanda is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2014, 17:29   #1833 (permalink)
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Posts: 8
Well maintained...

I have it directly from a good first hand source that has regularly touched this aircraft for line maintenance that this was a well looked after aircraft, and that as of the last time he saw this aircraft a few weeks ago there was certainly no suggestion that the historic wing incident was of any issue.
This is a good aeroplane.
travelexec is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2014, 17:45   #1834 (permalink)

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia - South of where I'd like to be !
Age: 53
Posts: 4,258
And hasn't read back through the thread and seen the two or three other times it was clearly explained why the phones could still be ringing !!!
500N is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2014, 17:45   #1835 (permalink)
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: last time I looked I was still here.
Posts: 4,094
Isn't it time to consider having CCTV on airplanes......Am I being naive?

Yes, I think you might be.

I don't think you are; not in asking the question. It has been considered for years, but perhaps only within the cockpit. The Qantas A380, that had the engine blow up and returned to SIA, had tail mounted cameras for pax entertainment for takeoff & landing and any other time it might be selected. The technology exists and is used as customer options. Hell, buses and metros have CCTV for anti hooliganism. Considering air-rage and the effect it could have on safety why not in the cabin if only for that reason. Thinking further, about live feed, consider a loss on communication a la 9/11 a/c. Fighters are scrambled and fly along side. No communications. Shoot it down yes/no? CCTV might save everyone's life, or save a catastrophe. There was a thought that one of the 9/11 a/c was targeted on Capitol Hill or the White House. The pax saved the day on that one. But imagine a repeat without pax intervention and fighter command having to make the call. We are talking worldwide here; it could happen in any country and considering the attitude in some places that are more trigger happy than others, and where factions are slightly more actively revolutionary as well.
Further, consider all the investigative work, hours and machinery and money, that has gone into searching the sea bed for the 'boxes' because they had no idea what happened. Sometimes the cause still remains a mystery. Ask the AAIB & NTSB their opinion about CCTV.
So no, I don't think it is naive. There are already CVR's, and modern FBW a/c send a massive amount of data back by live link. The amount of data Qantas received about their engine blow up was impressive. It was like a Redbull F1 car telling all, all the time. Ask Vetel if he rather know if he had a slow puncture or not, before it goes pop. Any CCTV would be on a loop as per CVR's and have protection protocols.
It is worthy of debate and not an instant dismissal. Remember the B737 rudder hard-over. The rest of us were wondering if to was going to bite us today. No one really knew, for years, what the hell happened and why. I'm sure there have been many crashes where the conclusion would have been reached if the AAIB/NTSB had eyes inside or outside. If A380/340/330 have live feeds of data back to home base it would seem that all future a/c will have such a feature, so why not add video with the proviso of agreed privacy that it is only used after an event and with mutual agreement.
RAT 5 is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2014, 17:53   #1836 (permalink)
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Asia
Posts: 59
MISSING MH370: Terrorism cannot be ruled out : CIA

CIA Director John Brennan said there had been “some claims of responsibility” over the missing jet that had “not been confirmed or corroborated,” and that he could not exclude the possibility of a terror link.
Stanley11 is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2014, 18:00   #1837 (permalink)
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: KRNT
Age: 42
Posts: 1
Satellite/aerial imagery

The subject of imagery on Google Earth convinced me at long last to register for PPRuNe, as we're finally in a subject I have some knowledge to contribute.

Contrary to popular belief by many, the imagery on Google Earth, Bing, etc. are not realtime imagery. Further, much of the imagery, particularly over urban areas, is not satellite imagery but rather aerial imagery. Google itself does not acquire much ortho imagery itself; it's primarily provided by the large satellite and aerial imagery providers.

Much of the areas outside urban centers that is acquired by satellite imagery is captured at relatively high resolution (40 cm/pixel). However, extremely remote areas may have extremely low resolution, on the order of 30 meters per pixel. Because of this, it's not surprising at all for small, remote islands to appear blurry.

While Digital Globe or their subsidiaries may be retasking satellites to capture high resolution imagery of the suspected crash areas, don't expect that imagery to appear on Google Earth in the next couple of days. More likely DG will post it on their website first, and it will eventually be integrated into GE.
Skiff is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2014, 18:03   #1838 (permalink)
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 90
"It changed course after Kota Bharu and took a lower altitude. It made it into the Malacca Strait," the senior military officer, who has been briefed on investigations, told Reuters.
If this is indeed the case, why would you not scramble?
CogSim is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2014, 18:18   #1839 (permalink)
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: In my head
Posts: 641
Originally Posted by G-CPTN, but oops we lost it in the tidy up...
Not a problem within the aircraft, but expensive to transmit to an exterior location.

Very expensive . . .
So is an $X00M aircraft hull and an $X00M liability loss.

And therein perhaps lies one reason we see only selective steady development on stuff that accurately points at cause even if we see super fast development in all other areas of aerospace engineering.

A surprisingly large part of the worldwide insurance market ultimately shoulders the cost of a loss like this - technology that excuses parts of the risk market from contribution might sometimes put an uncomfortable / difficult to manage burden on the remainder.

Sometimes it is fairer for some mystery to remain ...

Not a criticism - just a likely truth.

The insurance market underwrites aviation and aerospace in all its guises - can't do without it, and I think at some levels they do get a say.
slip and turn is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2014, 18:19   #1840 (permalink)
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 22
I have been watching this thread from the begining with considerable self-discipline to refrain from posting.
But the latest news about mil radar tracking of this unfortunate flight for more than one hour on an opposite track gave me the last momentum to post:
Very common in SAR ops. The military radar contact wouldn't have a xpndr id, so while it is potentially a clue, until it is 100% certain the a/c in question, you still have to start the search at the last known point/point last seen, which was the last transponder transmission.
XB70_Valkyrie is offline  
Closed Thread

acars, crash, elt, hf links, malaysian, mh370, missing, pingers, plane, vhf

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

All times are GMT. The time now is 16:56.

© 1996-2012 The Professional Pilots Rumour Network

SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1