Malaysian Airlines MH370 contact lost
Guest
Posts: n/a
jug
In which case, yes, you're right.
It would still require the route to be entered at some stage, though.
In all actuality, however, once you have control of the aircraft, there are a zillion ways to take it off the planned route, which would take nigh-on zero time.
I think that any route 2 garbage is just a moot point.
It would still require the route to be entered at some stage, though.
In all actuality, however, once you have control of the aircraft, there are a zillion ways to take it off the planned route, which would take nigh-on zero time.
I think that any route 2 garbage is just a moot point.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Chicago, IL, US
Age: 73
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If they had the Inmarsat ping, and another satellite in a different orbit recorded the same ping, that would help.
Both these bird, was well as some older satellites which may no longer be functional, would be able to see the region in question and, as others have alluded to, be able to detect and localize Inmarsat signals. As "national assets", their involvement would not be disclosed but I'm reading something into the White House press officer's statements last week as suggesting the call on what role they could play was Obama's, as CINC.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
If there was a plan to steal the plane, could the carefully planned "hijack route" meant to confuse/avoid radar/etc have been pre-entered into the computer as route 2, so that at the appropriate time, all that would be needed to execute would be to press a couple buttons?
Also, some of the folks I fly with seem to spend more time out of the seat than in it once airborne, don't know about this crew. One of the pilots could have programmed the second route after takeoff without the other's knowledge. In the Egyptair 990 crash the FO waited for the captain to go to the lav, then he started chanting and pulling circuit breakers.
Since the waypoints on the turnback route were well behind the KUL-PEK route, they would not appear as clues on the nav display screens in front of the pilots.
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Connecticut, USA
Age: 64
Posts: 252
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What is in the inactive route will not be shared via ACARS, regardless of what operator options are chosen.
The "B" route is not shared via ACARS until it is selected. When/if it is selected, it shares essentially a step ahead of what the plane is currently doing? So if you programmed the plane to fly straight for ten minutes (or miles, or to a specific point) and then turn to a specific heading, ACARS would send out the information that you intended to turn while you were still going straight?
If I'm correct on this - that could explain a lot. PF pre-programmed route B with the hijack route - but the first 10 minutes of that route were the same as route A. While the PNF is distracted, PF activates route B. Not knowing of the change, PNF proceeds to contact ATC. PF then gets PNF out of the cockpit, locks the door, and flight turns and continues along the remainder of route B.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: en route
Posts: 222
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
indicators...
Let's consider the vested interests involved... if this is a "nutty pilot commits suicide" story, the cost will be born by airline training and line management departments. If it's a "loony fundos steal plane and screw up" story, the cost will be carried by security and intelligence departments and communities. (ie in both these cases, ultimately by us, the travelling public).
If, however, there was (another) 777 electronics bay fire - remember Egyptair on the ground at Cairo a couple of years ago - it will be Boeing that carries the can. And after the 787 PR fiasco, I wonder if Boeing can survive if their cash-cow 777 turns out to be prone to spontaneous in-flight ignition...
Check the Boeing share price ticker for the past couple of weeks. Big drop 12 days ago when MH370 disappeared. Back up again when the suicidal pilot/loony fundo theories took hold. Starting to drop away again now....
Follow the money, as always.
If, however, there was (another) 777 electronics bay fire - remember Egyptair on the ground at Cairo a couple of years ago - it will be Boeing that carries the can. And after the 787 PR fiasco, I wonder if Boeing can survive if their cash-cow 777 turns out to be prone to spontaneous in-flight ignition...
Check the Boeing share price ticker for the past couple of weeks. Big drop 12 days ago when MH370 disappeared. Back up again when the suicidal pilot/loony fundo theories took hold. Starting to drop away again now....
Follow the money, as always.
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: In an ever changing place
Posts: 1,039
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The secondary flight plan/route in the FMS is exactly what ETOPS240 has quoted.
We use the secondary flight mode all the time for forward planning on multi sector days or where a quick turn around is required on the ground, once loaded it takes a couple of key strokes to activate.
@Jug
The secondary flight plan is displayed on the MFD as "secondary" when activated you cannot pretend to use the primary flight plan while actually using the secondary.
In summary, two flight plans can be loaded in to the FMS. One is active, the other isn't. The inactive route can contain anything - a diversion, an escape route, a mirror image of the active route, a modified version of the active route, or something completely irrelevant. To activate it, it's just short keystroke sequence.
@Jug
The secondary flight plan is displayed on the MFD as "secondary" when activated you cannot pretend to use the primary flight plan while actually using the secondary.
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: USA
Age: 46
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
slats11 said,
I'm not so sure I understand why 40 Degrees is seemingly so odd.
The Map
The lines are fairly close to begin with and a little bit of rounding would likely make little to no difference when we are talking about a last known with an up to a 59 minute margin for variance anyway, imo
The 8:11-9:10 time frame seems to mean a 4-5 Degree +/- in both directions is possible considering that (4-5 degrees) is roughly what the plane managed between last Contact and last Radar hit (roughly an hours time). The "40 degrees" already becomes anywhere from roughly 35-45, with fuel levels (as we believe we understand them) indicating it is probably closer to the initial 8:11 time anyway.
Plausible theory - 40 is easy for all to remember and report, and doing so would make no real difference, so they rounded it to that.
Or am I just thinking about this incorrectly?
However it does seem an odd coincidence that the claimed level of precision should just happen to produce a result of 40 degrees.
The Map
The lines are fairly close to begin with and a little bit of rounding would likely make little to no difference when we are talking about a last known with an up to a 59 minute margin for variance anyway, imo
The 8:11-9:10 time frame seems to mean a 4-5 Degree +/- in both directions is possible considering that (4-5 degrees) is roughly what the plane managed between last Contact and last Radar hit (roughly an hours time). The "40 degrees" already becomes anywhere from roughly 35-45, with fuel levels (as we believe we understand them) indicating it is probably closer to the initial 8:11 time anyway.
Plausible theory - 40 is easy for all to remember and report, and doing so would make no real difference, so they rounded it to that.
Or am I just thinking about this incorrectly?
Guest
Posts: n/a
To be totally honest, I don't know exactly how much information can be sent by ACARS regarding position reports.
I do know that as a minimum, an automated position report sends from your aircraft tells them the waypoint you're heading to (the active waypoint, as it's known), and the one after that. Whether CPDLC can provide more info further down your flight plan automatically, I'm not sure.
So to answer your question, yes. An ACARS position report will tell ATC you're at XYZ, at 11:12z, FL350, estimating next WPT ABC at 11:25z, and then heading WPT DEF after that.
All of this elaborate conjecture of pre-loading RTE 2 is all well and good, but wouldn't be a deal-breaker. Ultimately, if someone got control of the aircraft, the use of automation, LNAV/VNAV, hand-flying etc. is a all irrelevant.
If you lock the other pilot out of the flight deck, who cares what medium you use to navigate?
I'd have thought the big 'breakthrough' in your hypothesis isn't a clever or covert insertion of a second route. The bigger news that someone locked themselves in the flight deck in order to hijack the aircraft.
I do know that as a minimum, an automated position report sends from your aircraft tells them the waypoint you're heading to (the active waypoint, as it's known), and the one after that. Whether CPDLC can provide more info further down your flight plan automatically, I'm not sure.
So to answer your question, yes. An ACARS position report will tell ATC you're at XYZ, at 11:12z, FL350, estimating next WPT ABC at 11:25z, and then heading WPT DEF after that.
All of this elaborate conjecture of pre-loading RTE 2 is all well and good, but wouldn't be a deal-breaker. Ultimately, if someone got control of the aircraft, the use of automation, LNAV/VNAV, hand-flying etc. is a all irrelevant.
If you lock the other pilot out of the flight deck, who cares what medium you use to navigate?
I'd have thought the big 'breakthrough' in your hypothesis isn't a clever or covert insertion of a second route. The bigger news that someone locked themselves in the flight deck in order to hijack the aircraft.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: California
Age: 54
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@TheShadow
It's a reasonable theory.
If we look at the stats #1 cause is pilot error, #2 cause is mechanical failure. However the flight path/9-11 style stealth is more consistent with an intentional act.
It is hard to explain no communications were detected from mobile phones or other signal when the a/c crossed the peninsular and apparently this might have been at low altitude.
For me what is most odd about this incident is that after 10 days we have inconsistent data released, contradictions and an apparent lack of co-operation between the parties involved. Unlike AF447 there is very little stated plan of action and I fear there is a lack of leadership and focus in the investigation.
I understand that some data is classified however it appears that even the skunk works data has not helped locate the a/c except within a vast area.
Parallels with prior inflight fires
If we look at the stats #1 cause is pilot error, #2 cause is mechanical failure. However the flight path/9-11 style stealth is more consistent with an intentional act.
It is hard to explain no communications were detected from mobile phones or other signal when the a/c crossed the peninsular and apparently this might have been at low altitude.
For me what is most odd about this incident is that after 10 days we have inconsistent data released, contradictions and an apparent lack of co-operation between the parties involved. Unlike AF447 there is very little stated plan of action and I fear there is a lack of leadership and focus in the investigation.
I understand that some data is classified however it appears that even the skunk works data has not helped locate the a/c except within a vast area.
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: USA
Age: 46
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All talk has been about a/c heading North, West or South. Any possibility it could have doubled back in an Easterly direction? Don't 
me #JustAsking 
me #JustAsking
On the technical side; doesn't match the Pings. Earlier pings they have would have indicated that eastward path, plus hitting the 40 degree at 8:11 after a short double back would be impossible. Going East also means they would be very close to/end up pinging a second Satellites range. That would have been unbelievably helpful in this SAR effort! (but sadly didn't happen)
I'm not so sure I understand why 40 Degrees is seemingly so odd.
As you suggest, it is likely just rounding to a number.
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks D.S
If it were possible (Terrain 'hugging', etc) , regardless how unlikely, to double back, then given all eyes appear to be on the Indian Ocean, it's mission accomplished in terms of diverting the SAR effort and execute Pt II of whatever overall plan is?
If it were possible (Terrain 'hugging', etc) , regardless how unlikely, to double back, then given all eyes appear to be on the Indian Ocean, it's mission accomplished in terms of diverting the SAR effort and execute Pt II of whatever overall plan is?
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Tranquility Base
Age: 68
Posts: 53
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It would seem to me that in a fire, those thin ARINC 629 cables carrying ACARS data would be first to go. Failure of those might make it appear as if a human was turning knobs as systems can not connect to their LRUs.
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 226
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Boeing Share Price
That's a hell of a good observation.
Wonder what happened to Air Malaysia Share price?
And if the wreck were found?
Right now , not finding the wreck appears to be
a financial plus for them and finding it
a hell of a liability.
No wonder they are sending everyone off on a wild goose chase..
Wonder what happened to Air Malaysia Share price?
And if the wreck were found?
Right now , not finding the wreck appears to be
a financial plus for them and finding it
a hell of a liability.
No wonder they are sending everyone off on a wild goose chase..
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: NYC
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Uploading flight plans to a T7 FMS
Is it possible to upload a flight plan previously drafted on a PC to the T7's FMS from a flash drive or a smartphone/tablet USB connection? Is proprietary software required to draft a flight plan or is it available to the general public?
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Up high
Posts: 555
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What many of you dont seem to realise is that ACARS outages are pretty common, even in the middle of Europe. ACARS comes in and out sometimes and pilots would think nothing of it, a station might be congested or doing some maintenance or whatever. Likewise transponders fail on occasion, not very often but again if a transponder failed during my flight I would think nothing of it, that is why we carry two of them. I would not know it has failed until ATC told me though and at that point i would just switch to the other transponder.
Flying is not like the high security prison some of you imagine it to be where a change in the FMC triggers loud sirens at a ground facility. There might be 101 reasons why I do or change things in my FMS. There are literary 100 of thousands of flights every day, 99.99999999% of them landing safely. The role of ATC is to make sure that in this very congested airspace airplanes do not collide with each other. They do not have a role to police what I input or not in my FMC.
Most serious emergencies would be dealt with by turning the aircraft towards a suitable landing airport, if heading out across the sea turning initially back towards the coast would seems sensible if confronted with fire or fumes. Although pilots have their own supply of oxygen there have been occasions in the past where the crew oxygen has been filled with nitrogen by mistake. If that was the case the crew would have been incapacitated quite quickly. Passenger oxygen has a limited supply of about 15 minutes, at altitude they would have been incapacitated too. Cabin crew do have portable bottles but can the fly the airplane? They can try and maybe they did but the portable supply doesn't last vey long at the flow needed if the airplane has depressurized, one way or another they would have ended up incapacitated too if they did not manage to descent the airplane to bellow 10,000 feet. Finally incapacitated people can do all sorts of funny things while trying to do something else, that is the nature of incapacitation.
Flying is not like the high security prison some of you imagine it to be where a change in the FMC triggers loud sirens at a ground facility. There might be 101 reasons why I do or change things in my FMS. There are literary 100 of thousands of flights every day, 99.99999999% of them landing safely. The role of ATC is to make sure that in this very congested airspace airplanes do not collide with each other. They do not have a role to police what I input or not in my FMC.
Most serious emergencies would be dealt with by turning the aircraft towards a suitable landing airport, if heading out across the sea turning initially back towards the coast would seems sensible if confronted with fire or fumes. Although pilots have their own supply of oxygen there have been occasions in the past where the crew oxygen has been filled with nitrogen by mistake. If that was the case the crew would have been incapacitated quite quickly. Passenger oxygen has a limited supply of about 15 minutes, at altitude they would have been incapacitated too. Cabin crew do have portable bottles but can the fly the airplane? They can try and maybe they did but the portable supply doesn't last vey long at the flow needed if the airplane has depressurized, one way or another they would have ended up incapacitated too if they did not manage to descent the airplane to bellow 10,000 feet. Finally incapacitated people can do all sorts of funny things while trying to do something else, that is the nature of incapacitation.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: MSP
Age: 67
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Amazing how the same ideas keep cycling ...
Info on 2009 777 onboard fire - check out the links for pictures of damage.
Info on 2009 777 onboard fire - check out the links for pictures of damage.
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 245
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What many of you dont seem to realise is that ACARS outages are pretty common, even in the middle of Europe. ACARS comes in and out sometimes and pilots would think nothing of it, a station might be congested or doing some maintenance or whatever. Likewise transponders fail on occasion, not very often but again if a transponder failed during my flight I would think nothing of it, that is why we carry two of them.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Up high
Posts: 555
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On the contrary, many of us do realize that. The question must be put, however, is what are the odds of both of them failing on the same flight within minutes of each other? How often has that happened in your knowledge and experience?
What are the odds of flipping a coin and getting heads five times in a row?
Having flipped a coin four times in a row and got heads every time what are the odds of getting heads again if I flip it one more time?
I don't think probability works in the way you imply. ACARS fails quite regularly, once ACARS has failed what is the probability that the transponder fails? The same as it always has been for transponder failures. Unless there is a common mode failure in which case it is much higher.