BALPA GS Election - Q & A
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John - Fair Comment! In many organisations well established and entrenched management sometimes need stirring up a bit. It is only right and proper to give your other members a choice and I wish you every success.
All the best,
P.P.
All the best,
P.P.
Good luck John. You have already had my vote.
The one thing that has concerned me is that within BALPA there does not seem to be any emphasis on any airline other than the Big Airline, as a quick look at 'The Log' will confirm. (Boring articles on Nigel's trip to Buenios Aires, pensions and prostate problems usually means it goes in the recycling bin before being read).
BALPA represents many now, but not a lot of help is given. My airline's round of redundancies post 9/11 demonstrated this. The negotiations were left to the CC with minimal assisstance from BALPA, the net result was that too many redundancies were made (as time has now showed).
Do you have plans to extend the influence of BALPA to these new companies?
The one thing that has concerned me is that within BALPA there does not seem to be any emphasis on any airline other than the Big Airline, as a quick look at 'The Log' will confirm. (Boring articles on Nigel's trip to Buenios Aires, pensions and prostate problems usually means it goes in the recycling bin before being read).
BALPA represents many now, but not a lot of help is given. My airline's round of redundancies post 9/11 demonstrated this. The negotiations were left to the CC with minimal assisstance from BALPA, the net result was that too many redundancies were made (as time has now showed).
Do you have plans to extend the influence of BALPA to these new companies?
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Cpt Mainwaring
The other 7 voted for CD for a variety of reasons.
The 2 BA people were nervous about losing the Deputy GS, should he apply.
He is an exclusive BA negotiator. He is a very capable person & will as his title suggests be more than capable of holding the fort in both positions for a while. ie the BA & administrative role, which incidently he performs to a large extent at present.
The other 5 had a variety of reason 3 are Britannia,
(the chairman, finance chairman & one other CC rep)
The other 2 are the helecopter rep & another large independant rep.
Their views were various but basically I believe you could sum up as saying they felt the status quo was ok!!
We did not, hence the election.
Regards
John
The other 7 voted for CD for a variety of reasons.
The 2 BA people were nervous about losing the Deputy GS, should he apply.
He is an exclusive BA negotiator. He is a very capable person & will as his title suggests be more than capable of holding the fort in both positions for a while. ie the BA & administrative role, which incidently he performs to a large extent at present.
The other 5 had a variety of reason 3 are Britannia,
(the chairman, finance chairman & one other CC rep)
The other 2 are the helecopter rep & another large independant rep.
Their views were various but basically I believe you could sum up as saying they felt the status quo was ok!!
We did not, hence the election.
Regards
John
Last edited by John Frohnsdorff; 11th May 2002 at 11:32.
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John,
Where do you stand on the SCOPE agreement. In particular the current debate on PPRune regarding BA flying for GB Airways.
The GB Airways Pilots case is that:
BA instigated the franchise agreements, companies entered into them in good faith paying considerable sums of money in return for use of the BA brand. (The normal franchise model)
GB is a privately owned company that has been in existence for 70 years. It has held a franchise for about 6 years.
Most of the routes (all but 4 or possibly 5) are actually GB Airways routes. Instigated developed and nurtured by GB Airways,routes not handed to GB by BA.
GB Airways would be succesful in or out of a franchise because it conforms to the low cost model in terms of controlling costs, ie GO Easyjet, Ryanair etc.
GB pilots have very only recently reached a position where there pay is average, note - average, for the UK industry excluding BA.(This Tracker agreement excludes BA because it would skew pay upwards.)
GB pilots are largely BALPA members, the pay subscriptions to BALPA, they expect BALPA to fairly represent their position. They do not expect BALPA to favour one group of pilots over another.
Can you honestly reassure us that, especially after reading your manifesto that you do not have the 'Fortress Heathrow' mentality of some in BA & BALPA.
I appreciate you recognise that there are now more non-BA than BA members, in BALPA. Do you also recognise that there is a significant feeling that BA holds a dominant position in the UK, looses significant amounts of money on shorthaul and many BALPA members may feel it is time for them to get out of the way and let the industry flourish, providing more jobs for UK pilots.
Your comments re: 'benchmarking' are insignificant for most CCs as I think you will find the realistic view amongst airline managers and CCs is that BA's terms and conditions are simply unrealistic and not attainable or sustainable in the industry of today. Thus BA is generally not regarded as the benchmark amongst charter or low cost carriers, they compare like with like.
Do you recognise that the 'market always wins', it is a question of supply and demand, this is the present situation post 9/11. Part of BALPAs task is to encourage demand by helping the industry expand. That is the way to ensure better pay and conditions for all of the industry.
Where do you stand on the SCOPE agreement. In particular the current debate on PPRune regarding BA flying for GB Airways.
The GB Airways Pilots case is that:
BA instigated the franchise agreements, companies entered into them in good faith paying considerable sums of money in return for use of the BA brand. (The normal franchise model)
GB is a privately owned company that has been in existence for 70 years. It has held a franchise for about 6 years.
Most of the routes (all but 4 or possibly 5) are actually GB Airways routes. Instigated developed and nurtured by GB Airways,routes not handed to GB by BA.
GB Airways would be succesful in or out of a franchise because it conforms to the low cost model in terms of controlling costs, ie GO Easyjet, Ryanair etc.
GB pilots have very only recently reached a position where there pay is average, note - average, for the UK industry excluding BA.(This Tracker agreement excludes BA because it would skew pay upwards.)
GB pilots are largely BALPA members, the pay subscriptions to BALPA, they expect BALPA to fairly represent their position. They do not expect BALPA to favour one group of pilots over another.
Can you honestly reassure us that, especially after reading your manifesto that you do not have the 'Fortress Heathrow' mentality of some in BA & BALPA.
I appreciate you recognise that there are now more non-BA than BA members, in BALPA. Do you also recognise that there is a significant feeling that BA holds a dominant position in the UK, looses significant amounts of money on shorthaul and many BALPA members may feel it is time for them to get out of the way and let the industry flourish, providing more jobs for UK pilots.
Your comments re: 'benchmarking' are insignificant for most CCs as I think you will find the realistic view amongst airline managers and CCs is that BA's terms and conditions are simply unrealistic and not attainable or sustainable in the industry of today. Thus BA is generally not regarded as the benchmark amongst charter or low cost carriers, they compare like with like.
Do you recognise that the 'market always wins', it is a question of supply and demand, this is the present situation post 9/11. Part of BALPAs task is to encourage demand by helping the industry expand. That is the way to ensure better pay and conditions for all of the industry.
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John,
Would it not be possible to assemble these likely and capable candidates for the GS job, get them to draft up manifestoes and have a proper open and democratic election instead of having to go through this slightly unseemly "stalking horse" route? (Although I accept that it may have been the only move to "wake up" those, like me, who had no idea of the scale of the problem)
That way we we could square up CD with the competition and elect the GS by direct comparison instead of dumping CD first and then seeing what happened next.
Would it not be possible to assemble these likely and capable candidates for the GS job, get them to draft up manifestoes and have a proper open and democratic election instead of having to go through this slightly unseemly "stalking horse" route? (Although I accept that it may have been the only move to "wake up" those, like me, who had no idea of the scale of the problem)
That way we we could square up CD with the competition and elect the GS by direct comparison instead of dumping CD first and then seeing what happened next.
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Dan Winterland
I believe that BALPA has to be of more direct help to the CC’s and to be seen as doing so. More hands on in effect.
The perception of Log being a BA newspaper is regrettable; in the editorial staffs defence I don’t think it is a deliberate thing.
Regards,
John
CapedCrewsAider,
The SCOPE debate is in the remit of the BACC and is presently under discussion. Frankly there is nothing on the table yet to have an opinion on.
That said; one of the SCOPE group, doing the discussions, has informed me that he doesn’t think GB pilots will dislike the proposals when they know fully what they are. He won’t tell me any more than that.
On the benchmarking issue; I would still hold that if BA Salary and T&C’s increase the other companies have to retain their staff by being more attractive themselves. This in turn helps you get a better settlement.
Regards,
John
NW1,
I wish it where that simple. The problem is that it is impossible to get someone of the quality we require to stand against an incumbent GS.
I really wish there were a simpler way to give you all a vote. Remember I am not going to take any salary for doing this, if I win, and it is a lot of work to do for no remuneration.
Regards,
John
I believe that BALPA has to be of more direct help to the CC’s and to be seen as doing so. More hands on in effect.
The perception of Log being a BA newspaper is regrettable; in the editorial staffs defence I don’t think it is a deliberate thing.
Regards,
John
CapedCrewsAider,
The SCOPE debate is in the remit of the BACC and is presently under discussion. Frankly there is nothing on the table yet to have an opinion on.
That said; one of the SCOPE group, doing the discussions, has informed me that he doesn’t think GB pilots will dislike the proposals when they know fully what they are. He won’t tell me any more than that.
On the benchmarking issue; I would still hold that if BA Salary and T&C’s increase the other companies have to retain their staff by being more attractive themselves. This in turn helps you get a better settlement.
Regards,
John
NW1,
I wish it where that simple. The problem is that it is impossible to get someone of the quality we require to stand against an incumbent GS.
I really wish there were a simpler way to give you all a vote. Remember I am not going to take any salary for doing this, if I win, and it is a lot of work to do for no remuneration.
Regards,
John
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John,
Thanks for the speedy reply. So you're saying that the people we need to do this job won't actually stand *against* CD, but need to be invited in to what would effectively be a vacant post? No wonder we're experiencing difficulties.
I do understand that you're taking a lot on for no financial compensation - all BALPA members owe you thanks for that, and for getting some issues we all needed to be aware of out in the open. Can't belive the status quo had so much momentum.
Thanks for the speedy reply. So you're saying that the people we need to do this job won't actually stand *against* CD, but need to be invited in to what would effectively be a vacant post? No wonder we're experiencing difficulties.
I do understand that you're taking a lot on for no financial compensation - all BALPA members owe you thanks for that, and for getting some issues we all needed to be aware of out in the open. Can't belive the status quo had so much momentum.
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John - I'm with you so far, and I'm trying to keep away from industrial 'issues', as I understand from what you are saying that you will effectively be 'baby-sitting' BALPA while you hunt for a new GS -
Have you ANY ideas of suitable contenders for the post? Can we afford to wait until the election is over?
Have you ANY ideas of suitable contenders for the post? Can we afford to wait until the election is over?
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NW1,
Thanks.
Regards,
John.
Groucho,
There are good potential candidates around but we have to make sure we get the right person; one that brings the association together. I don’t want to take to long about it but I don’t want to be too hasty either.
I have to wait for the end of the election for the obvious reason; I need to be elected to be able to do anything.
Regards,
John
Thanks.
Regards,
John.
Groucho,
There are good potential candidates around but we have to make sure we get the right person; one that brings the association together. I don’t want to take to long about it but I don’t want to be too hasty either.
I have to wait for the end of the election for the obvious reason; I need to be elected to be able to do anything.
Regards,
John
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Hi John
I am just a little confused here. My company only recognised BALPA a few years ago. However, Chris Darke has been instrumental in stopping some nasty industrial action in my sector of the industry, and we have been rewarded with pay rises that will bring us close to the larger airlines over the next 3 years.
My company has nothing to do with BA and its associate companies and until very recently I had never heard of John Frohnsdorff.
How do you expect to gain the votes of members like me if you do not get out and meet the other BALPA members? We are after all members of the British Air Line Pilots Association, NOT the British Airways Line Pilots Association! I have to say that between the two manifestos I read, your's came across to me that Chris Darke was not representing the wishes of sections of BA. I noted your other points concerning the costs of BALPA under CD's leadership, but I would have liked more information on your perceived problems within BALPA and not so much about BA problems.
I also note that you are standing to in effect "wake up" BALPA and its management. I am, however, concerned that if you win you will only stand in post until someone else comes in. This, to my mind, is a total waste of BALPA's resources (and my membership fees) as if you win, we will have to go all over this again. If there is a suitable person already willing to stand up to an election with CD, then why isn't he the person that is standing to take over the job fully instead of you?
I may have missed these points in your manifesto, but at the moment you don't have my vote.
I am just a little confused here. My company only recognised BALPA a few years ago. However, Chris Darke has been instrumental in stopping some nasty industrial action in my sector of the industry, and we have been rewarded with pay rises that will bring us close to the larger airlines over the next 3 years.
My company has nothing to do with BA and its associate companies and until very recently I had never heard of John Frohnsdorff.
How do you expect to gain the votes of members like me if you do not get out and meet the other BALPA members? We are after all members of the British Air Line Pilots Association, NOT the British Airways Line Pilots Association! I have to say that between the two manifestos I read, your's came across to me that Chris Darke was not representing the wishes of sections of BA. I noted your other points concerning the costs of BALPA under CD's leadership, but I would have liked more information on your perceived problems within BALPA and not so much about BA problems.
I also note that you are standing to in effect "wake up" BALPA and its management. I am, however, concerned that if you win you will only stand in post until someone else comes in. This, to my mind, is a total waste of BALPA's resources (and my membership fees) as if you win, we will have to go all over this again. If there is a suitable person already willing to stand up to an election with CD, then why isn't he the person that is standing to take over the job fully instead of you?
I may have missed these points in your manifesto, but at the moment you don't have my vote.
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John: in an earlier posting you mentioned that three of the NEC members who voted in favour of rubber-stamping CD’s re-election were from Britannia. You imply that this was the reason for voting as they did. Why do you feel that this is the case?
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John,
Just a few questions for you.
Your manifesto clearly shows that you have no support from CC'c other than BA. Can you explain why that might be so ?
If the NEC is the recognised National Forum which is elected by BALPA members, and, the NEC has stated quite clearly that it supports Chris Darke, I would put it to you that by the actions you are taking you are not properly conducting yourself as a member of the NEC and should therefore,
a) resign from the NEC,
b) ensure that your supporters also resign and
c) stand against Chris Darke but not as a member of the NEC.
The public written arguments and slurs which have been part of this message board over the last few weeks will have had a negative impact on the Association and the good work that it carries out - how do you feel about being part of that ? At least Chris has had the good sense to stay off this forum.
Look forward to your reply.
flappless
Just a few questions for you.
Your manifesto clearly shows that you have no support from CC'c other than BA. Can you explain why that might be so ?
If the NEC is the recognised National Forum which is elected by BALPA members, and, the NEC has stated quite clearly that it supports Chris Darke, I would put it to you that by the actions you are taking you are not properly conducting yourself as a member of the NEC and should therefore,
a) resign from the NEC,
b) ensure that your supporters also resign and
c) stand against Chris Darke but not as a member of the NEC.
The public written arguments and slurs which have been part of this message board over the last few weeks will have had a negative impact on the Association and the good work that it carries out - how do you feel about being part of that ? At least Chris has had the good sense to stay off this forum.
Look forward to your reply.
flappless
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BHPS,
You are right in that it is hard to get out and meet all BALPA members. I do not have access to LOG or the ability to send out missives like the NEC Chairman. I do not have the funds to go around the CC’s canvassing support therefore I do this on PPruNe and on the BALPA Cs forum.
The issue is not just a BA one; I am pleased that you seem to have attained what your regard as a good three year deal but not all companies can say the same. Certainly benchmark comparisons with UK pilot salaries vs. Western European and the U.S. are not so good. Flagging out is an issue with certain companies.
I have tried to explain that getting the quality of individual that we want for the post is not possible against an incumbent GS; hence the stocking horse. I wish it could be otherwise.
I am sorry that I do not have your vote.
Regards,
John
Keep_pushing,
On re-examining that post I feel I could have phrased it better. I do not wish to re-open history or create any further divisions.
It was difficult to arrange to have the election or even a debate on this subject at all; but that is now in the past. The whole point now is to bring the association together and to find the right person to do it; should I win. If I do not win then you at least will have had your say in the matter.
In a democracy that is the right way of dealing with issues.
Regards,
John
You are right in that it is hard to get out and meet all BALPA members. I do not have access to LOG or the ability to send out missives like the NEC Chairman. I do not have the funds to go around the CC’s canvassing support therefore I do this on PPruNe and on the BALPA Cs forum.
The issue is not just a BA one; I am pleased that you seem to have attained what your regard as a good three year deal but not all companies can say the same. Certainly benchmark comparisons with UK pilot salaries vs. Western European and the U.S. are not so good. Flagging out is an issue with certain companies.
I have tried to explain that getting the quality of individual that we want for the post is not possible against an incumbent GS; hence the stocking horse. I wish it could be otherwise.
I am sorry that I do not have your vote.
Regards,
John
Keep_pushing,
On re-examining that post I feel I could have phrased it better. I do not wish to re-open history or create any further divisions.
It was difficult to arrange to have the election or even a debate on this subject at all; but that is now in the past. The whole point now is to bring the association together and to find the right person to do it; should I win. If I do not win then you at least will have had your say in the matter.
In a democracy that is the right way of dealing with issues.
Regards,
John
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Foggy Duck,
I do not wish to back slide on questions but this is really one best answered by your own CC.
May I ask you a question? Did they ask your opinion or consult before doing so?
Regards,
John
Flappless,
If you look carefully at the CC’s nominating CD you will find some omissions. Not all CC’s did nominate CD, I am not saying that they support me either; I am just answering your point.
In fact everyone is elected by members; Local Reps, Central Council Reps, NEC Reps and last but not least the GS.
I was elected on a platform of reform and to make BALPA more accountable to the members. Your point seems to be that you do not want the members to have their say in who is in one of THE most important positions in our association.
Regards,
John,
I do not wish to back slide on questions but this is really one best answered by your own CC.
May I ask you a question? Did they ask your opinion or consult before doing so?
Regards,
John
Flappless,
If you look carefully at the CC’s nominating CD you will find some omissions. Not all CC’s did nominate CD, I am not saying that they support me either; I am just answering your point.
In fact everyone is elected by members; Local Reps, Central Council Reps, NEC Reps and last but not least the GS.
I was elected on a platform of reform and to make BALPA more accountable to the members. Your point seems to be that you do not want the members to have their say in who is in one of THE most important positions in our association.
Regards,
John,
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John,
I think I speak for most BALPA members in my company in sofar as the deep disquiet regarding CD only seems to exist amongst BA members. The membership in other companies, especially ex-Dan Air BCal and CityFlyer pilots might well have a view that CD is in the pocket of the BA CC.
Do you also not think that if the BA CC is discussing the future of another companys' BALPA members it might have the courtesy to include that companies CC in the debate?
So far you do not have my confidence or my vote.
Regards,
CapedCrewsAider.
I think I speak for most BALPA members in my company in sofar as the deep disquiet regarding CD only seems to exist amongst BA members. The membership in other companies, especially ex-Dan Air BCal and CityFlyer pilots might well have a view that CD is in the pocket of the BA CC.
Do you also not think that if the BA CC is discussing the future of another companys' BALPA members it might have the courtesy to include that companies CC in the debate?
So far you do not have my confidence or my vote.
Regards,
CapedCrewsAider.
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John
I am very disappointed to see this debate public.
I have seen Chris Darke in action and know that he is both talented experienced and well respected by senior managment in most airlines.
It is an extremely turbulent time in our industry and continuity and his ability to diffuse some very turbulent issues around are needed.
He is proven and what we do not need at this time is an unknown stepping into the firing line.
If there was a long term alternative in the vote fair enough but to have a void is unacceptable.
I respect your concerns about the running of balpa and support several issues you may have, but would it not be more appropriate to address these from your position as an NEC member. The NEC at the end of the day is the ruling body of which you are part.
For the good of the industry please stop and think about the damage you are doing. The void you may create.
I cannot with the maifestos seen support your actions, however good the intention. Please think about ending this now. Youve made your point.
I am very disappointed to see this debate public.
I have seen Chris Darke in action and know that he is both talented experienced and well respected by senior managment in most airlines.
It is an extremely turbulent time in our industry and continuity and his ability to diffuse some very turbulent issues around are needed.
He is proven and what we do not need at this time is an unknown stepping into the firing line.
If there was a long term alternative in the vote fair enough but to have a void is unacceptable.
I respect your concerns about the running of balpa and support several issues you may have, but would it not be more appropriate to address these from your position as an NEC member. The NEC at the end of the day is the ruling body of which you are part.
For the good of the industry please stop and think about the damage you are doing. The void you may create.
I cannot with the maifestos seen support your actions, however good the intention. Please think about ending this now. Youve made your point.
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G.S. Post
John,
I have previously commented in another thread that I think it is time for a major change in the BALPA heirarchy. I cannot believe that someone can give 100% to two jobs and be expected to deliver an acceptable level of representation to either. I respect your candour and for that alone I have voted for you.
If my CC offered support to Mr Darke I would like to know when the support of the Balpa members in our co. were canvassed for their opinions, never in our case!!
My plea is that you will put the wheels in motion to give all the BRITISH pilots in the BRITISH airline pilots association some hope for the future by laying down the foundations of a cohesive policy to stop the continual erosion/decline of our career prospects by the continual misemployment of foreign (often not even E.U. citizens) pilots.
Over the last few months Mr Darke's stance has pushed me to the brink of redundancy, I know we are not the most militant organisation and altruism doesn't pay the mortgage but nothing has come from his office other than self adulation and rhetoric, no policy at all. Maybe it is time for some of the anti BA members to try to put aside their differences and try to push ahead with a pilots union chaired by (even in the short term) a pilot.
I have previously commented in another thread that I think it is time for a major change in the BALPA heirarchy. I cannot believe that someone can give 100% to two jobs and be expected to deliver an acceptable level of representation to either. I respect your candour and for that alone I have voted for you.
If my CC offered support to Mr Darke I would like to know when the support of the Balpa members in our co. were canvassed for their opinions, never in our case!!
My plea is that you will put the wheels in motion to give all the BRITISH pilots in the BRITISH airline pilots association some hope for the future by laying down the foundations of a cohesive policy to stop the continual erosion/decline of our career prospects by the continual misemployment of foreign (often not even E.U. citizens) pilots.
Over the last few months Mr Darke's stance has pushed me to the brink of redundancy, I know we are not the most militant organisation and altruism doesn't pay the mortgage but nothing has come from his office other than self adulation and rhetoric, no policy at all. Maybe it is time for some of the anti BA members to try to put aside their differences and try to push ahead with a pilots union chaired by (even in the short term) a pilot.
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CapedCrewsAider,
The great thing about an election is that you don’t have to speak for what you think most of the members in your CC want; they get to speak for themselves!
I cannot answer for the BACC but I would point out that your disquiet with the present situation is with CD as GS not I. Do you not think therefore you should be writing to CD? It is unfair to lay your frustration at my feet; I’m only a candidate!
I am still sorry I don’t have your vote.
Regards,
John
Freddyfokker,
Quote from Clement Atlee
>Democracy means government by discussion, but it is only effective if you can stop the people talking<
Regards,
John
Pipistrelle,
Thanks for the posting. I share your concern about UK pilot career prospects and would like to assure you that will be one of the foremost issues when and if, depending on the election result, we select a new GS.
Regards,
John
The great thing about an election is that you don’t have to speak for what you think most of the members in your CC want; they get to speak for themselves!
I cannot answer for the BACC but I would point out that your disquiet with the present situation is with CD as GS not I. Do you not think therefore you should be writing to CD? It is unfair to lay your frustration at my feet; I’m only a candidate!
I am still sorry I don’t have your vote.
Regards,
John
Freddyfokker,
Quote from Clement Atlee
>Democracy means government by discussion, but it is only effective if you can stop the people talking<
Regards,
John
Pipistrelle,
Thanks for the posting. I share your concern about UK pilot career prospects and would like to assure you that will be one of the foremost issues when and if, depending on the election result, we select a new GS.
Regards,
John