Gulf Air: Qatar/Oman refuse new funds & New CEO
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Icarus,
I do not have to fear for my job because I do not work for GF (I think you are the one who is paranoid, not me). I do admit that I do have a lot of people that I know who work in scheduling and in the forecasting departments and I get daily updates from them. I am also well aquainted with the person who is calibrating APM (as you have correctly stated). If I am not mistaken, he is an American with a Ph.D. in transportation engineering and have met him on several occasions in Paris (where the APM people have regular conferences). So, do you still think that person is incapable' of calibrating and using the tool properly? Get your info straight. Do you really think that 20 world class airlines who have this system are so stupid to keep APM when there are better products in the market? Get real! As for the schedules being expensive, maybe it is because of your overblown salary? As I have mentioned before, yield is MAJOR factor in the problems of GF. Competition from QR, EK, and other airlines has affected GF tremendously. Some airlines in this region have not played by the rules (so to speak) and charge far less than the agreed upon rates that is set by these airlines themselves. What about the times has GF been forced to go to certain destinations because of political pressure (by the CEO or otherwise)? What about the the Omani CEO was able to get away with millions without anyone standing in his way? What about the owner states Oman and Qatar themselves helping WY and QR while stabbing GF in the back? So, look at the bigger picture. Like it or not, there are people in scheduling who know their business and it is pretty sad to see you insult them the way you do when you yourself admitted have no experience in this issue.
As I have told you before, I challenge you to get the full picture from the people who know. Have the courage to go visit the people you hate so much. You might be enlightened.
I do not have to fear for my job because I do not work for GF (I think you are the one who is paranoid, not me). I do admit that I do have a lot of people that I know who work in scheduling and in the forecasting departments and I get daily updates from them. I am also well aquainted with the person who is calibrating APM (as you have correctly stated). If I am not mistaken, he is an American with a Ph.D. in transportation engineering and have met him on several occasions in Paris (where the APM people have regular conferences). So, do you still think that person is incapable' of calibrating and using the tool properly? Get your info straight. Do you really think that 20 world class airlines who have this system are so stupid to keep APM when there are better products in the market? Get real! As for the schedules being expensive, maybe it is because of your overblown salary? As I have mentioned before, yield is MAJOR factor in the problems of GF. Competition from QR, EK, and other airlines has affected GF tremendously. Some airlines in this region have not played by the rules (so to speak) and charge far less than the agreed upon rates that is set by these airlines themselves. What about the times has GF been forced to go to certain destinations because of political pressure (by the CEO or otherwise)? What about the the Omani CEO was able to get away with millions without anyone standing in his way? What about the owner states Oman and Qatar themselves helping WY and QR while stabbing GF in the back? So, look at the bigger picture. Like it or not, there are people in scheduling who know their business and it is pretty sad to see you insult them the way you do when you yourself admitted have no experience in this issue.
As I have told you before, I challenge you to get the full picture from the people who know. Have the courage to go visit the people you hate so much. You might be enlightened.
Last edited by boiler; 21st May 2002 at 20:14.
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Overblown salary! I Wish!
Remember the last guy running the yield control dept? Hewas similarly qualified and his models and ideas caused us more trouble than ever.
You need good internal data to run these systems, once you have that they almost run themselves.
GF doesn't have any, never has.
What they do have is so far scattered around the four corners of HDQ it is (almost) impossible to make anything meaningful of it. Little is shared, little is accurate. Hence all the bad decisions.
If you are that close to GF you should know that too, but of course your mates are the ones who can see the wood for the trees anyway, so how could you!
I don't 'hate' anyone as you put, just largely disappointed that so many fools can survive so long. But then that is what happens when your boss knows less than you and you are an 'ace brown-noser' like so many on that particular floor.
Remember the last guy running the yield control dept? Hewas similarly qualified and his models and ideas caused us more trouble than ever.
You need good internal data to run these systems, once you have that they almost run themselves.
GF doesn't have any, never has.
What they do have is so far scattered around the four corners of HDQ it is (almost) impossible to make anything meaningful of it. Little is shared, little is accurate. Hence all the bad decisions.
If you are that close to GF you should know that too, but of course your mates are the ones who can see the wood for the trees anyway, so how could you!
I don't 'hate' anyone as you put, just largely disappointed that so many fools can survive so long. But then that is what happens when your boss knows less than you and you are an 'ace brown-noser' like so many on that particular floor.
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I still hope that you would go to that floor and talk to some of the people who do know what they are doing. If you are a manager at GF then surely you must hear about who is good and who is not. Am I right? But upper management are also to blame for all this. MXP is a good example. When GF had to make a decision to drop FCO or MXP, the forecasting team recommended to keep FCO. They warned the upper management that if FCO was axed, MXP flights would have a maximum of 35% S.F. So, what happened? A.A. overruled the forecast and kept MXP, and it had indeed an average of 35% S.F. and was eventually dropped. Sad.
As for systems running themselves, there is no system in the world that can do that. Things change on a monthly/weekly basis. Things like revenues, passenger behavior, travel patterns, connections, etc... And systems need someone who can keep up with all these updates.
I do agree that the wrong person in charge of the systems(or one person operating a system while everyone else is ignorant) can cause havoc. That person you talk about was a manager and had tremendous power when it came to making decisions about yields, etc... Am I right? Any ideas what his qualifications were? If my memory serves, he was from Sabre. Sometimes, applying concepts from the U.S. or Europe do not apply to the ME region and hence he fell into trouble. But that is my take on it.
As for systems running themselves, there is no system in the world that can do that. Things change on a monthly/weekly basis. Things like revenues, passenger behavior, travel patterns, connections, etc... And systems need someone who can keep up with all these updates.
I do agree that the wrong person in charge of the systems(or one person operating a system while everyone else is ignorant) can cause havoc. That person you talk about was a manager and had tremendous power when it came to making decisions about yields, etc... Am I right? Any ideas what his qualifications were? If my memory serves, he was from Sabre. Sometimes, applying concepts from the U.S. or Europe do not apply to the ME region and hence he fell into trouble. But that is my take on it.
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GF
BOILERMAKER, thanks for post i agree with you with most of it expect one, the OMANI CEO, he went with millions and they didn't go after him, was he alone? if you live in the gulf area im pretty sure you will understand why they have stop half way, and what about the rest of the CEO's after him,there was an article on HAYAT news paper puplished in London on friday the 16 of may 2002 on GF/WY and QR if you read that you will understand who is the obsticle for Gulf Air to improve and why
Last edited by Auto; 22nd May 2002 at 10:47.
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Thanks for the coment Auto. You are right about the Omani guy. I forgot the word 'who' in the sentence and it gave the impression he did not get away with it. Sorry.
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As far as I am aware, the 340 is not in the fleet equation post 27 October 2002.
Boilermaker - yes, upper management is terrible, I would not shed any tears if the names further up this thread had to go. The gentlemen you refer to has certainly biten off far more than he can chew or was ever capable of chewing in the first place, that has to be rectified immediately!
As for SH&E, I firmly believe they have the majority of things right, they are very much prepared to listen and make changes if necessary solong as the ultimate goal(s) remain in sight.
The new boss is working hard with them, and if it's going to work, then everyone else has to too.
It's time to 'put up' or 'ship out'.
Boilermaker - yes, upper management is terrible, I would not shed any tears if the names further up this thread had to go. The gentlemen you refer to has certainly biten off far more than he can chew or was ever capable of chewing in the first place, that has to be rectified immediately!
As for SH&E, I firmly believe they have the majority of things right, they are very much prepared to listen and make changes if necessary solong as the ultimate goal(s) remain in sight.
The new boss is working hard with them, and if it's going to work, then everyone else has to too.
It's time to 'put up' or 'ship out'.
Last edited by Icarus; 22nd May 2002 at 15:23.
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Auto, would you happen to have the link to that article (or maybe you can post it here)? Thanks.
Icarus, I do agree with you about AA and the others at the top. Do you think bringing them in caused AlHamer to be let go so soon? Too bad they are not departing with him (for now).
Icarus, I do agree with you about AA and the others at the top. Do you think bringing them in caused AlHamer to be let go so soon? Too bad they are not departing with him (for now).
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I believe AA let EaH down badly and that everyone AA brought in let him (AA) down also.
Trouble is of course no-one is 'man' enough to admit it and take the necessary corrective action; otherwise they would be admiting their own errors of judgment etc. which of course simply does not happen here. Shame really. And of course EaH also let himself down badly, he did not exactly practice what he preached.
Another moment in time I am sure he would have survived, but right now GF needs people at the top who can make good sensible business decisions and leave family and freinds out of it. We still do not have that today, the question is 'Will we have that tomorrow?'; if we do not, then I am quite sure there will be a new thread on this site by this time next year entitled -
GF: Remember them?!
PS - Nice we have finally agreed on something!
Oh the nice young coloured chap a few paragraphs up: Sabre and BD predominantly, highly qualified, incredibly stupid. He got away with it for so long for the reason above, his direct report would not admit his error of judgement and let it carry on, to the tune of over BD0.5M per annum in DBC!! and probably 10 times that in loss of faith from customers!
It really is that hard for these people to swallow such a bitter pill!
Trouble is of course no-one is 'man' enough to admit it and take the necessary corrective action; otherwise they would be admiting their own errors of judgment etc. which of course simply does not happen here. Shame really. And of course EaH also let himself down badly, he did not exactly practice what he preached.
Another moment in time I am sure he would have survived, but right now GF needs people at the top who can make good sensible business decisions and leave family and freinds out of it. We still do not have that today, the question is 'Will we have that tomorrow?'; if we do not, then I am quite sure there will be a new thread on this site by this time next year entitled -
GF: Remember them?!
PS - Nice we have finally agreed on something!
Oh the nice young coloured chap a few paragraphs up: Sabre and BD predominantly, highly qualified, incredibly stupid. He got away with it for so long for the reason above, his direct report would not admit his error of judgement and let it carry on, to the tune of over BD0.5M per annum in DBC!! and probably 10 times that in loss of faith from customers!
It really is that hard for these people to swallow such a bitter pill!
Last edited by Icarus; 22nd May 2002 at 17:36.
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Common consensus is that EaH/AA/NW/HAM should never have been let anywhere near the running of a successful airline - never mind one that needed drastic surgery. They needed a King/Marshall combo, but didn't get it.
AA was brought in coz he was EaH's buddy from way back - nothing to do with his experience at BA - NW ditto - HAM ditto. EaH carried on flying when GF needed a strong man at the helm. The most challenging environment all had ever been in was the Civil Aviation Authority headquarters.
The depths the airline have sunk to are incredible. When travelling GF F on BAH-LHR about 6 years ago I witnessed the CEO who was a fighter pilot (can't remember name) basically saying to the two F hosties - be in my hotel room in 2 hours or you lose your jobs. EaH was continually allowed to carry on flying even when the Omani CAA had suspicions about him. What about the Lufthansa safety audit - unsecured cargo etc. The airline needs a swift kick up the backside. They need to clear the dead wood and replace them with expats who know what their doing so they can teach the Bahrainis.
AA was brought in coz he was EaH's buddy from way back - nothing to do with his experience at BA - NW ditto - HAM ditto. EaH carried on flying when GF needed a strong man at the helm. The most challenging environment all had ever been in was the Civil Aviation Authority headquarters.
The depths the airline have sunk to are incredible. When travelling GF F on BAH-LHR about 6 years ago I witnessed the CEO who was a fighter pilot (can't remember name) basically saying to the two F hosties - be in my hotel room in 2 hours or you lose your jobs. EaH was continually allowed to carry on flying even when the Omani CAA had suspicions about him. What about the Lufthansa safety audit - unsecured cargo etc. The airline needs a swift kick up the backside. They need to clear the dead wood and replace them with expats who know what their doing so they can teach the Bahrainis.
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BL - Bit strong that!
Try to leave NW out of it, nice chap he is! In the wrong position but someone who can make a positive contribution if fielded correctly!
As for the others, totally agree. Only there for the comfort of their friends and doing precious little else.
Also, to be honest, there are a lot of Bahrainis in GF who work damn hard and are very good at their work. They need to be noticed so that they can be invested in for the future. I'm lucky, I have a handful working for me.
There are an equal amount who are aggressive, selfish and power-crazy, but please don't tar them all with the same brush. Not fair to them and unbecoming of you, I am sure you are a far more decent fellow than that.
Try to leave NW out of it, nice chap he is! In the wrong position but someone who can make a positive contribution if fielded correctly!
As for the others, totally agree. Only there for the comfort of their friends and doing precious little else.
Also, to be honest, there are a lot of Bahrainis in GF who work damn hard and are very good at their work. They need to be noticed so that they can be invested in for the future. I'm lucky, I have a handful working for me.
There are an equal amount who are aggressive, selfish and power-crazy, but please don't tar them all with the same brush. Not fair to them and unbecoming of you, I am sure you are a far more decent fellow than that.
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Icarus, I commend you for what you said about the Bahrainies who work hard and deserve to be invested in. In my humble opinion, bringing in expats does not always mean things will get better. I hear GF is bringing a lot of expats in these days and paying them salaries through the roof (so much for cost cutting measures such as early retirement), while some of the locals who are paid next to nothing, work their a** off and deserve a shot at a promotion are being left out (mind you, I am not sure or familiar about the exact number of such people). I find that sad. I am all for bringing in an expat if there is no fully qualified local within the company who can truly take up a certain position.
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Oh, absolutely, I would never knock anyone who makes an effort.
Unfortunately, you can put in all the effort you can but if you're not qualified (and with the experience to boot) I'm afraid you're not going to get anywhere. All the people mentioned are nice guys, but they should never have been put in the positions they are in. At the end of the day, if it all goes tits up, they'll take a wrap that they don't deserve.
With regards to the Bahraini's, sorry I wasn't clearer (been doing time-zone hopping as SLF a lot in the last 72 hrs). When I was referring to the dead wood I meant those (expat and Bahraini) who won't move with the times.
With reference to expats teaching Bahrainis, what I meant was I'd like to see a training based approach where young and promising Bahrainis are taken under the wings of qualified expat management and prepared to eventually take over the helm. Isn't this sort of apprentice scheme what Sayer is doing over in BAS?
The ab initio pilot scheme shows what happens when locals are appointed who aren't qualified - giving Command so readily to cut costs (as GF management at the time believed that local 'labour' was in some way cheaper than 'expat' labour) didn't work. But don't get me wrong - promote people if they are qualified, as boilermaker suggests.
BTW, anyone know what's happened to EaH since he's gone west?
Unfortunately, you can put in all the effort you can but if you're not qualified (and with the experience to boot) I'm afraid you're not going to get anywhere. All the people mentioned are nice guys, but they should never have been put in the positions they are in. At the end of the day, if it all goes tits up, they'll take a wrap that they don't deserve.
With regards to the Bahraini's, sorry I wasn't clearer (been doing time-zone hopping as SLF a lot in the last 72 hrs). When I was referring to the dead wood I meant those (expat and Bahraini) who won't move with the times.
With reference to expats teaching Bahrainis, what I meant was I'd like to see a training based approach where young and promising Bahrainis are taken under the wings of qualified expat management and prepared to eventually take over the helm. Isn't this sort of apprentice scheme what Sayer is doing over in BAS?
The ab initio pilot scheme shows what happens when locals are appointed who aren't qualified - giving Command so readily to cut costs (as GF management at the time believed that local 'labour' was in some way cheaper than 'expat' labour) didn't work. But don't get me wrong - promote people if they are qualified, as boilermaker suggests.
BTW, anyone know what's happened to EaH since he's gone west?
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AMONGST ALL THIS THERE HAS BEEN A REVELATION TO SOME HAPPENINGS IN GF BY SOME VERY SENIOR PILOT IN A FORM OF 2 PAGE LETTER TO PILOTS MAIL BOXES DETAILING-
CURRENT AVPO'S INVOLVEMENT IN THE GF 072 CRASHHIS RIFT WITH THE PAST SENIOR MANAGER FLIGHT TRAINING
HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH THE PAST PCE AND DGCAM OMAN AND ITS MAERICAN JEW
PRESENT HEAD OF FLIGHT OPERATIONS GRROOMING OF BECOMING VPO
THE OLD CLUB AND THE SENIOR EX BOSSES TO GET INTO MANAGEMENT AGAIN
DIRECTOR GENERAL DGCAM OMAN AND HIS BLACK MAGIC ANDSCAMS INVOVLVING CASH FROM GF SWINDLED YEARS AGO
GF 072 REPORT THOUGHT TO BE CHANGED TO SUIT CERTAIN INDIVIDUALS JOBS
And there is to be a further update or relese to this one,promised by the writer,
SO WE SHALL WAIT FOR THAT AND SEE WHAT COMES OUT OF IT.
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oneilas,
maybe it would be possible for you to be a little more specific about that letter and its content?
Maybe you can post it on this forum?
12 pilots received a message last week that they where accepted as F/O A320 to commence training in July.....so every piece of information is crucial to them!(yes, i am one of them!!)
Thank you......
maybe it would be possible for you to be a little more specific about that letter and its content?
Maybe you can post it on this forum?
12 pilots received a message last week that they where accepted as F/O A320 to commence training in July.....so every piece of information is crucial to them!(yes, i am one of them!!)
Thank you......
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kimmekke,
i am myself only one year old hear and was just inquisitive of the contents of the letter.
As for being specific,i am sorry but cannot release that as it is very serious in content and seems in some ways personal.
Also PPRUNE does not allow such material to be posted,I think.
As for your A320 jobs,there's no problems about that unless the company folds up in the next few months.
MR BIG,
I do not have any intentions of having anyone arrested due I dont know too many of these individuals to support the accusations,so you seem to be more in the position to ratify whether the letter of incrimination is to a certain extent,correct.
But I suppose you cant do that,its not in your nature,or shall I say in the Gulf peoples ways.
Many a times I have been told that extreme things have happened,but theres no accountabilty in the Gulf,or Gulf Air or Bahrain.
A crime would be committed and investigated but not prosecuted.
Isnt that the Gulf Way???????
i am myself only one year old hear and was just inquisitive of the contents of the letter.
As for being specific,i am sorry but cannot release that as it is very serious in content and seems in some ways personal.
Also PPRUNE does not allow such material to be posted,I think.
As for your A320 jobs,there's no problems about that unless the company folds up in the next few months.
MR BIG,
I do not have any intentions of having anyone arrested due I dont know too many of these individuals to support the accusations,so you seem to be more in the position to ratify whether the letter of incrimination is to a certain extent,correct.
But I suppose you cant do that,its not in your nature,or shall I say in the Gulf peoples ways.
Many a times I have been told that extreme things have happened,but theres no accountabilty in the Gulf,or Gulf Air or Bahrain.
A crime would be committed and investigated but not prosecuted.
Isnt that the Gulf Way???????
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GF 072 REPORT THOUGHT TO BE CHANGED TO SUIT CERTAIN INDIVIDUALS JOBS
And just when is it due. Even Shk Ali thought that it was coming out about 2 months ago.
