Southwest KLGA gear collapse.

[Lookleft]

Very surprised to read that SWA appears to have no plan for how to handle
such an event.

Very surprising considering that this is the third time they have an aircraft with its nose unsupported by a nosewheel on a runway!

[Mark in CA]

Is there a SWA culture of slamming the plane down? Or are there some other American cowboy cultural attributes at play here?

Back in the day, it was jokingly a matter of whether the pilot had been Navy or Air Force.

[joee]

Even Naval Aviation emphasized not landing on the nose gear, especially the T-28.
I've flown on Southwest quite a few times as a passenger and absolutely love them. As a pilot I noted they are rather quick in the taxi arena, but then I'd delay my final configuration as long as practicable during CAVU conditions in order to save fuel so I'm hardly above criticism.

[junebug172]

Is there a SWA culture of slamming the plane down? Or are there some other American cowboy cultural attributes at play here?

Why would anyone purposefully slam a plane down? People usually remember the landing after a flight, especially the rough ones. No pilot is purposefully going to plant an aircraft unless its for operational reasons.

As for cowboys, they can be. Those guys are paid to get from block to block as quickly as possible. They're not paid to go around, taxi slowly, are take the long way home. Some guys really push the limits and those that don't are chastised by the other pilot. The bang out lots of flights, push themselves hard, and push their airplanes hard.

[theroadie]

Also surprising was Nick Bradbury's report that a law enforcement officer requested that he stop taking videos when he was outside the plane. There is no justification for that unless the person is located in a way that interferes with rescue personnel.

[RAT 5]

Floating? Never push: never keep pulling back and increasing the angle of attack: better to drop a wing and nudge a main wheel onto the ground and activate the spoilers, works for me: or G/A. It's not the first and not the last, sadly. I believe it happened to a B767 at Newark around 1998?
The scariest thing I ever saw, sat at the holding point LTN RW26, was a BAE146 (which has no TR's) floating, pushing, landing on the nose wheel, bouncing back on to the main-wheels, bouncing back onto the nose wheel (which has no brakes) bouncing back onto the main wheels etc. etc. It stopped before the end, just, and there was an agricultural aroma in the air.
Much is taught about how not to get into the poo: perhaps some more should be taught about how to escape from the more common poo traps.

[mickjoebill]

Also surprising was Nick Bradbury's report that a law enforcement officer requested that he stop taking videos when he was outside the plane. There is no justification for that unless the person is located in a way that interferes with rescue personnel.

Agreed, such video is highly useful for training and a personal record of your reaction can be of value in a court case.

More to the point it seems likely that there was something better for the policeman to do than harass passengers.

It is not unusual in a serious emergency for police to go into "law enforcement" mode when they should be in "serve and protect" mode. Police airwings are not immune either.

[ExSp33db1rd]

This isn't going to help getting people to leave their stuff

I always travel in a 'uniform' now, i.e. a large-pocketted "safari" shirt, which carries most of the stuff that I consider indispensible, can't 'wear' my computer of course, but apart from that anything in the overhead locker is just 'stuff' - and can be replaced.

I may look like a dork, but what the hell, everything I own is a tool, not a fashion statement - who cares.

[NSEU]

Quote:
Perhaps we should ask when will the riff raff learn to "turn off all
electronic devices for landing" (or isn't a mobile phone with camera an
electronic device?)

/sarcasm on
Obviously, the use of this electronic device negatively influenced the landing, which is why one is supposed to have them off until the PA announcement is made that they can be turned back on.
/sarcasm off

I wasn't implying that it was a factor in *this* accident (neither was the guy before me who prompted my comment). It was just a general safety comment. In general, we can do quite well without cameras and phones flying around the cabin during accidents, and we can brace ourselves more easily and more quickly in an accident when required to do so without one hand holding onto these devices.

[Lookleft]

Those guys are paid to get from block to block as quickly as possible.
They're not paid to go around, taxi slowly, are take the long way home. Some guys really push the limits and those that don't are chastised by the other pilot. The bang out lots of flights, push themselves hard, and push their
airplanes hard.

So we can expect to see this sort of thing from SWA more often? I take it that go-arounds are for wimps and pudknockers and that real pilots get it on the ground first time every time. Its good to see that the lessons from the past 30 years only need to be taught in classrooms and not applied to line operations.

[Tanker]

Those guys are paid to get from block to block as quickly as possible. They're not paid to go around, taxi slowly, are take the long way home

Wrong! At SWA they get paid extra for every minute that they over block starting at 5 minutes past block time. Also go arounds are encouraged. If not configured, on speed, and stabilized at 1000 ft then the PM is supposed to tell the PF to go around. IF LGA was pilot error then it was due to the crew not following procedures. However the full NTSB report is not even close to being out so the exact cause is unknown at this time.

[bubbers44]

SWA pilots fly a lot of trips per day so most do not make basic errors like landing on the nose gear. She did but do not put all down because of one incident. I will fly on them anytime.

[Lookleft]

so most do not make basic errors like landing on the nose gear.

MOST I would have thought at that level of operation NONE make basic errors like landing on the nose wheel. BTW how do you know it was a she?

[Mark in CA]

Perhaps this is why some people insist on grabbing their carry-on items when evacuating a plane:

The Crash Landing of Southwest 345 | Nick Bradbury

The next day Southwest delivered our bags to our hotel but my carry-on wasn’t among them. It arrived a day later – without my MacBook Pro. That, along with an Apple TV and a Lightning cable, had been stolen from my bag. Southwest has agreed to reimburse me for these items once I provide proof that I purchased them (no problem, I have receipts). They claim the items weren’t stolen but were more likely “misplaced” by someone sent on board to retrieve carry-on bags.

[Lonewolf_50]

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...ml#post7965086

Squawk 7700's post is well worth reading, and pondering.
Possible "unintended outcomes" of FOQA programs? Standard human reaction, I'd guess.
Organizational point of emphasis: "We have to stop doing X."
Human response: "OK, I'll start doing Y since it reduces the odds of doing X ..."

Or are there some other American cowboy cultural attributes at play here?

Is there some inherent British or European stupidity that induces posts like this, or was it just one person and a brain not firing on all cylinders at the time the "submit reply" button was selected?

Even Naval Aviation emphasized not landing on the nose gear, especially the T-28.

Indeed. Nothing like 48" (52.5 at the sea level stop) of manifold pressure during a dawn launch.

[wozzo]

Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50

[URL]Is there some inherent British or European stupidity that induces posts like this, (...)?

I think it was more the general stereotyping and racism going on in the SFO related threads which induced this failed attempt at sarcasm.

[junebug172]

Wrong! At SWA they get paid extra for every minute that they over block starting at 5 minutes past block time. Also go arounds are encouraged. If not configured, on speed, and stabilized at 1000 ft then the PM is supposed to tell the PF to go around. IF LGA was pilot error then it was due to the crew not following procedures. However the full NTSB report is not even close to being out so the exact cause is unknown at this time.

Incorrect. They're paid by the trip which is a flat rate. Delays mean they dilute their efficiency and pay. They're incentivized to get from block to block quickly which is why they're always in a hurry.

As for their 1000' gate - if they went around every time they were unstable, they'd be late more often than on time.

Would you like me to pull my references directly from their contract?

[junebug172]

So we can expect to see this sort of thing from SWA more often? I take it that go-arounds are for wimps and pudknockers and that real pilots get it on the ground first time every time. Its good to see that the lessons from the past 30 years only need to be taught in classrooms and not applied to line operations.

No, GAs aren't for wimps. No one thinks that. But GAs take up time and, if you're being paid a flat rate, don't make you money. They push it.

Add to that their 25 minute turns. Any hiccup during the day rolls the delay to the last few legs so you've got guys trying to make up time as well.

[junebug172]

SWA pilots fly a lot of trips per day so most do not make basic errors like landing on the nose gear. She did but do not put all down because of one incident. I will fly on them anytime.

Man, you guys think pilots don't misjudge landings? Maybe he thought he was closer to the runway and was trying to force it on. Stuff happens. Accidents happen.

Infielders who've fielded 1000s of grounders still muff the routine ball. You guys get into car accidents and you guys drive over the speed limit. These are humans you're talking about.

[bubbers44]

Pilots also know the nose gear will not support the entire weight of the landing so we make sure the main gear touches down first.
She landed on the nose gear so will have to justify it.