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Standard of RT in USA

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Standard of RT in USA

Old 29th Jul 2013, 22:43
  #261 (permalink)  
 
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Acroguy

"Taxi into position runway 1, keep it moving, be ready to go following the Learjet crossing right to left."
So Imagine trying to understand that call, possibly made in a heavy US regional accent and pushed out at high speed, in your second language! I find it hard enough and "English" is my first language. you then say:-

I have never heard a clearance like the first one since the change.
As if we should all agree that it's a sad loss!? Standardisation of wording and pronuncuation is not there to make it pleasant, chatty and relaxed for some, but to make it unequivocably clear to all.

As regards French speaking French in France, I agree - unacceptable.
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 00:07
  #262 (permalink)  
 
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Quote:
"Taxi into position runway 1, keep it moving, be ready to go following the Learjet crossing right to left."
So Imagine trying to understand that call, possibly made in a heavy US regional accent and pushed out at high speed, in your second language! I find it hard enough and "English" is my first language. you then say:-
I would say that that is extremely straightforward English, with no odd nouns or verbs and should be understood by anybody claiming to understand even rudimentary English. If any professional pilot doesn't understand that clearance, then God help us all...

The total clearance would probably be more like: " Taxi into position runway 1, traffic landing runway 28, keep it moving -- be ready to go after the Learjet crossing right to left, company on a two mile final for runway 28"

And, in my experience, tower clearances such as these are not typically delivered at high speed. High speed is usually an approach specialty...

Last edited by acroguy; 30th Jul 2013 at 00:08.
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 00:22
  #263 (permalink)  
 
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ICAO allow in cases where an aircraft is not crossing an international border, they can speak the local lingo. I know this is not the case in France IE AFR and TSC frequently speak French. Unacceptable. As for "Line up and wait" , it's clear, and takes less time to say. When your freq is busy this is an asset, that's why I personally prefer it

Last edited by Una Due Tfc; 30th Jul 2013 at 00:24.
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 00:48
  #264 (permalink)  
 
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ICAO allow in cases where an aircraft is not crossing an international border, they can speak the local lingo. I know this is not the case in France IE AFR and TSC frequently speak French. Unacceptable. As for "Line up and wait" , it's clear, and takes less time to say. When your freq is busy this is an asset, that's why I personally prefer it
So what is the clearance when the tower needs an immediate takeoff for traffic? "Line up and wait, cleared for immediate takeoff, no delay?"

Is is possible that those operating in other parts of the world have no appreciation of how hard US ATCO's are pushing traffic over here?
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 01:16
  #265 (permalink)  
 
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What's the difference between a hectopascal and a millibar?
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 01:30
  #266 (permalink)  
 
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acroguy,

Please stop embarrassing us Americans who fly overseas and are under enough embarrassment for our radio "techniques". "Line up and Wait" was a simple improvement. Why would an ATCO say "into position and hold, cleared for immediate"?

pigboat, a couple of syllables, I'd guess and a salute to a forgotten Frenchman like most scurvy metric ideas.

Last edited by galaxy flyer; 30th Jul 2013 at 01:32.
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 01:47
  #267 (permalink)  
 
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I promise to stop contributing to this thread, but I never said the old clearance was "position and hold, cleared for immediate". I said the clearance used to be "taxi into position, cleared for an immediate...". The point being, what is the point of the word "wait" if the clearance is going to be for an immediate?

I also promise to stop being embarrassed for the UK guys who apparently are flabbergasted at being cleared to land 7-8 miles from the airport here in the US. Imagine that. Maybe ICAO could learn something.
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 02:05
  #268 (permalink)  
 
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In that case, why not, "cleared for immediate take-off" and drop "into position"? Standard ICAO aviation English requires no more time, just a ommitment to using it properly.
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 02:16
  #269 (permalink)  
 
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@acroguy

There is no doubt that the job done by ATC in many places the world round is impressive. Likewise the ability of ORD etc to shift huge total No's if AC from their runways. To them, I doff my hat.

Your assertation that long-winded sentences are necessary to achieve high flow rates is simply WRONG. Purely as an example, London Gatwick achieves the highest flow-rate (by movements per hour) of any commercial airport runway in the world. They have a truly international clientele, and trust me, you Never hear the motivational speaking you have advocated bracketed around the somewhat camouflaged clearance.

I think you are fighting for what you like and prefer, not seeing the big picture. Patriotism, (and I am proud of my country) has no place in Flt Safety.

Last edited by White None; 30th Jul 2013 at 02:21.
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 02:35
  #270 (permalink)  
 
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White none

Can you expand upon your claim? I've heard they are the busiest single runway commercial, but not sure of the point you're making.
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 03:56
  #271 (permalink)  
 
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Can I expand - Sure. The fact that the example was Gatwick is irrelevant. The claim I am making is that in order to Push a lot of Tin, it is absolutely NOT necessary to use transmissions like
Taxi into position runway 1, traffic landing runway 28, keep it moving -- be ready to go after the Learjet crossing right to left, company on a two mile final for runway 28"
which was straight from acroguy's post.

You would never hear that at Gatwick, hence I used it as an example, but the same could be said for Hong Kong where I personally am now attuned to the local accents, but for everyone's benefit ATC generally strive to hit the agreed, thought out Standards.

As an aside, I'm Ex-Military where at the right place to the right audience a degree of humour, sarcasm, banter etc was, if not encouraged, allowed and it led to a feeling of teamwork and a good way to start and end missions, yadayada... So I truly get the good natured, getting the job done, intentions of transmissions such as the above BUT, anyone who says these would never be spoken (too)quickly hasn't been to a busy US port. acroguy mentioned that there are no " odd nouns or verbs" in there - agreed, but that is not the point. My current home port is HKG, we have crew from worldwide and I regularly fly with people for whom English is a second language who find that they CAN deal with UK ATC but find the US much harder. Put a US pilot's spouse in a cockpit and ask them to understand ALL the R/T, ( it's all important, right?), they wouldn't be able to because they have little preconception of what is about to be said. Expectation is a significant part of the auditory understanding process, and one can only 'expect' standard calls, especially under stress.

If it is not already clear I am not defending any particular nation, just the principles of standardisation, to try to give examples for those who seem to think everyone should fit in with whatever a host nation's practise is, and to try to put all Non English as a first language crews in the same bracket of finding it tricky, not just Asians.

Finally, again, those French Huh!!!!
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 04:15
  #272 (permalink)  
 
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KDCA is pretty busy with what amounts to a single runway... yeah, I know there are two other runways, but 90% of the 290,000 landings and takeoffs occur on 18-36. LGW has approx 50,000 less plane movements although with an average bigger aircraft. The biggest thing that KDCA sees is a B757. Not to demean what LGW manages to accomplish with a single runway....
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 04:18
  #273 (permalink)  
 
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Seemed your post was built around the Gatwick example, but ok.
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 04:43
  #274 (permalink)  
 
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USA:

Taxi into position runway 1, traffic landing runway 28, keep it moving -- be ready to go after the Learjet crossing right to left, company on a two mile final for runway 28
ROTW:

Line up and wait 01, expedite, be ready immediate
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 05:11
  #275 (permalink)  
 
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I like being told who I'm waiting for when holding for a runway or taking a position. God help me if they don't tell me and just give me a takeoff clearance when some other flight is still landing on a crossing runway.

Again this is just a personal preference as an airman, but having more information is better than having less.

Last edited by Island-Flyer; 30th Jul 2013 at 05:12.
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 08:14
  #276 (permalink)  
 
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West Coast.

It was, Gatwick is a perfect example, which I don't apologise for using. An example is just something which is typical of other similar, Err....., Examples? Inevitably people are a bit hairsprung to assume other people are having a go on the basis of nationality, I'm not.
( Except for the French )
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 08:59
  #277 (permalink)  
 
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Ha Haa - Nice "PS". Running out of Cans for all the Worms here.

Last edited by White None; 30th Jul 2013 at 08:59.
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 09:41
  #278 (permalink)  
 
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Angry

Acro
I tried to post similar to the following yesterday, but technical issues prevailed.

Some North Americans seem to have a about ICAO.
As a gentle reminder:
1.ICAO began at the Chicago Conference in 1944
2. ICAO HQ is in Montreal
3. ICAO is a UN body (for what that is worth!)
4. Countries can file exceptions to ICAO standards if it seems to them that this is a good idea.
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 09:49
  #279 (permalink)  
 
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Hectopascals have been around for some time. I well remember the original NOTAM which stated that the FDR (West Germany), the GDR (East Germany) and Malawi would adopt the hectopascal at midnight and abandon the milibar. It went on to say that the conversion ratio was 1 hectopascal = 1 milibar.

I think the date was 14 September 1984 and I was flying from McGuire to Frankfurt. Sure enough, the Frankfurt ATIS was giving the pressure setting in hectopascals on our arrival.

So, for the last 30 years or so the rest of the world has been missing out on hectopascals!
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Old 30th Jul 2013, 10:08
  #280 (permalink)  
 
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This thread is a joke. The system works very well in the US. The system does not work when foreign carriers employ pilots that: A can't fly visual approaches, and B, can't speak or understand English.
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