Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Asiana flight crash at San Francisco

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Asiana flight crash at San Francisco

Old 8th Jul 2013, 21:59
  #961 (permalink)  

Aviator Extraordinaire
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma USA
Age: 76
Posts: 2,394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Fatigue is a contributing factor in this accident.
Yes, but a minor one really, unless they did not receive adequate rest prior to departing on this flight. I don't think that this information has been released yet.
con-pilot is offline  
Old 8th Jul 2013, 22:02
  #962 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: In the back of a bus
Posts: 1,023
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Shutterbug, true. They could be talking about the two different locations, as well. Or, the relatives were assisting before the purser arrived at the door. I'm sure it's easy for memories to get mixed up and adding in time compression as well... Well, that someone went to help him/her makes me happier at least, you'd hope there'd at least be one or two out of a group who would.
givemewings is offline  
Old 8th Jul 2013, 22:02
  #963 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: MA
Posts: 300
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Exhaustive Review of Korean Air From Years Ago

Back in the late 90s, Delta stop codesharing with KE and at KE's invitation, did an exhaustive analysis of the practices and culture at the carrier. I believe that the findings worked, because they have been accident free since as far as I know.

http://www.flight.org/blog/download/...dit_report.pdf
RobertS975 is offline  
Old 8th Jul 2013, 22:12
  #964 (permalink)  
Green Guard
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
The thing you got to ask yourself, would the same be ever led to happen on BA or Lufthansa.
BA and LH ? We can not tell if it would, but we can certainly tell you IT DID happen to both of them. LH B747 somewhere in South Africa and BA on Trident after T/O ?
 
Old 8th Jul 2013, 22:13
  #965 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Ireland
Posts: 596
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Unfortunately, not many Korean pilots appear to be part of "nearly all Koreans" judging by r/t skills.
I assume they are waiting for 'Korean Authorities to assist' as it is likely that they will be interviewed in their native tongue.
Speed of Sound is offline  
Old 8th Jul 2013, 22:26
  #966 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Chapel Hill,NC, USA
Posts: 61
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Dozywannabe,

The engineering in modern airplanes, as well as the software technology, is truly amazing.

Nevertheless, "traps" like those recognized elsewhere in this forum (for instance, in differences between autothrust lever engagement and movement between Airbus and Boeing) are becoming better known as operational experience increases.

Years ago, I attended an aviation psychology symposium at Ohio State University, when "FBW" and automation by Airbus was still in the development stages, and FBW was still markedly controversial.

One of the speakers said that the software was very complex, having to contend with untold combinations of conditions (such as which warnings to inhibit on the takeoff role, to prohibit rejected takeoffs for non-critical events). Inevitably,he speculated, automation would act "unreasonably" and cause problems in some unforeseeable situations.

Keep alert. Expect the unexpected. Your turn could come tomorrow.
taildrag is offline  
Old 8th Jul 2013, 22:27
  #967 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Location Location
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
@givemewings

I agree with an aforementioned comment... is it really wise to roll out crew and give statements to the press? But look at it from Asiana's point-of-view... they may realize they have a serious problem on their hands and are trying to spin the heroism of the cabin crew to take away from the crash. Then again... to me her statement really only indicts them... _she_ asks the captain if they should commence an evacuation... he tells her to wait. Excuse my French... but wtf?! Wait for what? Had that cabin erupted in smoke or fire earlier than it did crucial seconds would have been lost while the captain was sorting out his playbook. It's beyond me. And the press. Are they listening to this? I haven't read this in one single press release. Instead they focus on the FA who is in tears... why was she crying. Who gives a f*ck. Plane just crashed, Cabin Manager asks captain shall we start the evac, captain says please wait. Isn't THAT the story?

I guess I'm just not cut out to be a journo. Can't see the story angle through the story.
Shutterbug is offline  
Old 8th Jul 2013, 22:30
  #968 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Sydney Australia
Age: 54
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Nagoya Japan, similarities

Dear All, I find the similarities with a China Airlines Flight 140 which crashed whilst attempting to land at Nagoya Airport in Japan in 1994 disturbing. I know we shouldn't rush to judgment, but you can't help getting the feeling that we have seen this before. It was the second worst air crash in Japan and resulted in that Airline being banned from flying to Japan for 10 years. If it is found to be pilot error in this case, then I suppose it is the price we pay for being human....
HKATER is offline  
Old 8th Jul 2013, 22:32
  #969 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Everett, WA
Age: 68
Posts: 4,348
Received 147 Likes on 71 Posts
Lots of good comments (and some not so good).

I'd like to clear up a few misconceptions I noticed going through the 50 pages.

It was posted that the Rolls Royce engine control (in the BA Heathrow accident) and the PW4000 engine control are both made by Goodrich (the implication that they both might have the same s/w error) Not true - the Trent 800 engine control was done by Lucas - now part of Goodrich. The PW4000 engine controls were done by Hamilton Standard (now Hamilton Sundstrand).
I was involved in the BA Heathrow investigation - there was a huge amount of data from the QAR and Flight Data Recorders - the fuel metering valves on both engines were commanded to open, the position feedback indicated the metering valves opened, but the fuel flow didn't increase. The only way that could happen was if the fuel flow was obstructed upstream of the fuel control.

The 777 'pressure vessel' is pretty much all aluminum (aside of course from the windows) - the main deck floor is largely composite, as is the vertical tail. As to how the 787 might hold up in a similar accident - the FAA had concerns regarding how a composite fuselage would hold up. They made Boeing do 'drop tests' of fuselage barrel sections to show they provided crash protection equivalent to an aluminum structure. Of course, we won't really know how a 787 will hold up in a similar crash until a 787 is involved in a similar crash - hopefully we'll be waiting a long, long time for that to happen.

While there is always risk that pilots will become too dependent on the technology, it's hard to argue with the results. Each generation of new airplanes has gotten safer - with the 777 arguably the best so far (A380, 787, and 747-8 haven't been out there long enough to be statistically significant). But this crash, along with the Air France A330, show that we still need to train pilots to fly, not just manage, the airplane.
tdracer is offline  
Old 8th Jul 2013, 22:35
  #970 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: SEA
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Be very interested if anyone has a copy of the SFO Notam for July 6 prior to the accident.
Ref post #535

SFO 06/011 SFO NAV ILS RWY 28R IM OTS TIL 1308222359
SFO 06/010 SFO NAV LDA RWY 28R GP OTS WEF 1306011400-1308222359
SFO 06/009 SFO NAV ILS RWY 28R CAT 2/3 NA WEF 1306011400-1308222359
SFO 06/008 SFO RWY 28R RVRT OTS WEF 1306011400-1308222359
SFO 06/005 SFO NAV ILS RWY 28L GP OTS WEF 1306011400-1308222359
SFO 06/004 SFO NAV ILS RWY 28R GP OTS WEF 1306011400-1308222359
SFO 06/003 SFO RWY 28R ALS OTS WEF 1306011400-1308222359
UAVop is offline  
Old 8th Jul 2013, 22:35
  #971 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: York
Posts: 737
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
BA and LH ? We can not tell if it would, but we can certainly tell you IT DID happen to both of them. LH B747 somewhere in South Africa and BA on Trident after T/O ?
Just a point of order if I may?

BA's Trident accident at Staines occurred in June of 1972. In that year people may also remember the miner's strike, parliament's vote to join the 'Common Market', and the fact Nixon was president of the US!

As that was 41 years ago it must also have been around about the time the trainee of the Asiana a/c was born. Give or take a couple of years.

Not exactly recent.
4468 is offline  
Old 8th Jul 2013, 22:40
  #972 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: SEA
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
It may also be pertinent to note that just recently, SFO changed approach ops, approach procedure with a new closely spaced parallel runway operation to reduce spacing between aircraft.
There is a striking similarity between this incident and the Bali incident.
UAVop is offline  
Old 8th Jul 2013, 22:41
  #973 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: AKL
Age: 51
Posts: 30
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
777yank Just a few observations from a commercial pilot with many hours in the 777 and 737:

-There are similarities with the Lion Air crash and the SFO disaster. I think both accidents could have avoided with proper use of the VNAV (they are virtually identical on the 777 and 737).

-I've seen 777 and 737 crews screw up non-precision approaches because they never practice them. Remember the Guam accident? Have we learned nothing?

-VNAV (even on a base turn to a visual approach) is a great tool for a constant rate descent.

-At my airline, you are required to use all navigation aids, even in VFR conditions. Why would not you use VNAV as an aid for a stabilized approach?
Unfortunately the way I see it, VNAV is one of the key drivers in the reduction in basic 'hand flying' skills. It's too easy and comfortable and you don't need to use your brain.....much.

Without jumping to conclusions, maybe this wouldn't have happened if he had flown a few more visual approaches and was comfortable hand flying the aircraft (I acknowledge VNAV has it's place but not at the expense of basic hand flying skills).
Homebrew1 is offline  
Old 8th Jul 2013, 22:43
  #974 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: frying pan
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
onion
fully agree with you . notwithstanding incredible advances in aircraft technology
the extent of pilot stupidity cannot be understood.
hifly787 is offline  
Old 8th Jul 2013, 22:47
  #975 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Dubai
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Out

!SFO 07/046 SFO Runway 28L Precision Approach Path Indicator Out of Service Effective from 1307062219 CREATED: 06 JUL 2013 22:19:00

Closed

!SFO 07/047 SFO Runway 10R/28L Closed Effective from 1307062309 CREATED: 06 JUL 2013 23:09:00


My "time" might be out ?
JamesGV is offline  
Old 8th Jul 2013, 22:53
  #976 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 3,093
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by taildrag
Years ago, I attended an aviation psychology symposium at Ohio State University, when "FBW" and automation by Airbus was still in the development stages, and FBW was still markedly controversial.

One of the speakers said that the software was very complex, having to contend with untold combinations of conditions (such as which warnings to inhibit on the takeoff role, to prohibit rejected takeoffs for non-critical events). Inevitably,he speculated, automation would act "unreasonably" and cause problems in some unforeseeable situations.
Funnily enough, my old Prof. (who is sadly no longer with us) was very much of that mindset. In fact he was an out-and-out sceptic for years, and being a specialist in software reliability a lot of people took him seriously. A visit to Toulouse:

Report on visit to Airbus Industrie - 28-29th Jan. 1993

ended up softening his attitude slightly, but he'd never sanction being complacent about the subject.

The long and the short of it though, is that a lot of those worries were unfounded. Difference in thrust lever/throttle behaviour between Airbus and other types is a mere conversion issue (there is no such thing as a 'standard flight deck'), and Airbus never designed the automation hardware. That task went to Honeywell - incidentally the same people who made FMS units for Boeing.
DozyWannabe is offline  
Old 8th Jul 2013, 23:04
  #977 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Ireland
Posts: 596
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Unfortunately the way I see it, VNAV is one of the key drivers in the reduction in basic 'hand flying' skills. It's too easy and comfortable and you don't need to use your brain.....much.
I think the point 777yank was making was that given the situation the PF found himself in on the day, regardless of the reasons why he ended up there, VNAV was available to him as an aid to resolving the situation without killing two people and injuring many others.
Speed of Sound is offline  
Old 8th Jul 2013, 23:05
  #978 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: The Smaller Antipode
Age: 89
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 11 Likes on 7 Posts

Sorry, disagree. What's the relief crew there for?
So that you get 3 tired crewpersons instead of only 2 !


These days I'm sure pax will stuff ipads down their trousers/bras first then
evacuate.
Not a problem for women - who all seem to have a mobile phone permanently welded to their right paw anyway ( just who are they always talking to ? ) Mind you, if I was deleyed by one texting as she went down the chute, I might just commit a felony. ( want to bet it didn't happen, enough of them turned around and started taking photographs, which proves that their mobile phones weren't too far away ? )

Last edited by ExSp33db1rd; 8th Jul 2013 at 23:13.
ExSp33db1rd is offline  
Old 8th Jul 2013, 23:11
  #979 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Alaska, PNG, etc.
Age: 60
Posts: 1,550
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by JamesGV
!SFO 07/046 SFO Runway 28L Precision Approach Path Indicator Out of Service Effective from 1307062219 CREATED: 06 JUL 2013 22:19:00
As has been pointed out a number of times previously, that NOTAM was effective a couple hours after the crash and resulted from the 777 sliding over the PAPI. destroying it.


The NTSB has stated that the PAPI was operational prior to being wiped out by the crash.
A Squared is offline  
Old 8th Jul 2013, 23:17
  #980 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Unites States
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
X-Plane software used to animate 777 crash at SFO

Here is an X-Plane version o the crash. X-Plane simulates physics, true flight dynamics and flight characteristics. See what you think, compared to the cartoon CNN has been using.

DoYouFly is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.