Asiana flight crash at San Francisco
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there seems to something very insidious creeping into the world aviation scene.
It's already here full force...
1) fatiguing rosters
2) minimal training/proficiency on visual/manual approaches
3) possible repercussions from management in the event of discontinuing an
unstable approach and going around...
4) RE: #3 pilots aware of this and hesitant to perform manual/visual
approaches, thus reducing proficiency levels....
5) so we have many threats raising their heads here....barriers down, the holes
lined up
It's already here full force...
1) fatiguing rosters
2) minimal training/proficiency on visual/manual approaches
3) possible repercussions from management in the event of discontinuing an
unstable approach and going around...
4) RE: #3 pilots aware of this and hesitant to perform manual/visual
approaches, thus reducing proficiency levels....
5) so we have many threats raising their heads here....barriers down, the holes
lined up
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Trainer was 1st Day on the Job.. Trainee had 43 hours
Asiana now confirms that Trainer was 1st day on the job.. add that to the fact that trainee had only 43 hours on the 777.. what a deadly combination!! 
Asiana crash: Airline says pilot trainer new to the job
Asiana crash: Airline says pilot trainer new to the job
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I am angry
Whatever will finally be the findings of the NTSB, how much tons of futile paper the regulators will finally print, no matter what blah-blah all the a$$-covering postholders in airlines will produce, what the all-knowing crm/had/sop instructors and TREs will scribble on the board, it will all come down to only hot air, because anything that would avert incopetent stick and rudder operators getting into a cockpit of an airliner means more money spent for safety and less in the pocket of managers.
And that today is a not-going-to-happen.
Brace for zillions of deviations from the real problem, gazillions of ‘this would not have happened in a XXXXXX’ , ‘we need more Ψ-speed, δ-pitch, ζ-moron protections and it will be all right’.
All this leaves me utterly disgusted and very angry to realise that the whole system still all too easily allows “pilots” to fly a perfectly healthy airliner into terrain on a cavok day. And the very next day another such pilot is again allowed to fly around punters with the very same limited and culture-biased assessment passed, the same dumded-down only strictly sop-automation-bound, below necessity but cheap training received.
We see them and hear them on a daily base, we all know it, we have to share the airspace with them …..
….. and nothing ever happens. The needle returns to start of the song and we all sing along like before ……
I am angry
Whatever will finally be the findings of the NTSB, how much tons of futile paper the regulators will finally print, no matter what blah-blah all the a$$-covering postholders in airlines will produce, what the all-knowing crm/had/sop instructors and TREs will scribble on the board, it will all come down to only hot air, because anything that would avert incopetent stick and rudder operators getting into a cockpit of an airliner means more money spent for safety and less in the pocket of managers.
And that today is a not-going-to-happen.
Brace for zillions of deviations from the real problem, gazillions of ‘this would not have happened in a XXXXXX’ , ‘we need more Ψ-speed, δ-pitch, ζ-moron protections and it will be all right’.
All this leaves me utterly disgusted and very angry to realise that the whole system still all too easily allows “pilots” to fly a perfectly healthy airliner into terrain on a cavok day. And the very next day another such pilot is again allowed to fly around punters with the very same limited and culture-biased assessment passed, the same dumded-down only strictly sop-automation-bound, below necessity but cheap training received.
We see them and hear them on a daily base, we all know it, we have to share the airspace with them …..
….. and nothing ever happens. The needle returns to start of the song and we all sing along like before ……
I am angry
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I'm also angry. For many of the same reasons. Basic airmanship is out the window in favor of sim-sessions and canned responses to irretrievably complex problems. The best training for flying airplanes is...flying airplanes. In the weather. With things breaking, as they do. A well trained chimpanzee could pass a checkride at any of our vaunted "sim-centers". I mean, hell, they pretty much give you the checkride while you're being "trained". Checking boxes is in, producing genuine Pilots is out.
If you haven't been genuinely afraid in an airplane...had to find your own way out, had to clench up and get on with it...please do yourself and the rest of us a favor and confine your flying to MSFS. REAL pilots are a dying breed. But at least they're not taking anyone with them.
If you haven't been genuinely afraid in an airplane...had to find your own way out, had to clench up and get on with it...please do yourself and the rest of us a favor and confine your flying to MSFS. REAL pilots are a dying breed. But at least they're not taking anyone with them.
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Buttscratcher.,
Even if a PAPI is mandatory "over there", I am still convinced that you should be able to make a visual approach with no outside help. If not, you are not a competent pilot.
That a 50 hr on type copilot is not capable of doing it, does not master it, I understand. I have been in Training Dept. for a few years. That said, I cannot understand that a captain, leave alone a training captain, in the left seat, let this happen.
Even if a PAPI is mandatory "over there", I am still convinced that you should be able to make a visual approach with no outside help. If not, you are not a competent pilot.
That a 50 hr on type copilot is not capable of doing it, does not master it, I understand. I have been in Training Dept. for a few years. That said, I cannot understand that a captain, leave alone a training captain, in the left seat, let this happen.
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As a lowly SLF, I have to say that reading this thread scares the living bejebus out of me if the assumptions about pilot error are correct.
To take this to a very basic level, my understanding is that the pilot crashed a perfectly serviceable plane because he (rather than the computer) had to, er, fly it?!
If that is the case, then the pilot should be locked up for a very long time - as should the people who allowed him to be there in the first place.
To take this to a very basic level, my understanding is that the pilot crashed a perfectly serviceable plane because he (rather than the computer) had to, er, fly it?!
If that is the case, then the pilot should be locked up for a very long time - as should the people who allowed him to be there in the first place.
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@anengineer
Perhaps because it was posted about 10 pages back, and was already posted in its original form before that. (BBC merely reshowed edited vid of what CNN already showed in full)
@jugofpropwash
Dunno. Perhaps, given that he had dispensed with a large proportion of the aircraft mass (nose gear, main gear, both engines, a healthy chunk of baggage, empannage and a few unlucky pax, to name but a few) he thought it would float to the terminal . . . or maybe he was waiting for some very short steps! 
Whatever it was, his purser had the time to regain her wits, enter the flight deck and check that everyone was OK after an impact hard enough to rip off everything below the fuselage and a nose-down, 270 degree pirouette that Darcey Bussell would be proud of before he had the time to conclude that getting off might be a good idea
@islandflyer
Many thanks for posting the harrowing account from the UA 747 F/O, which seems to concur with what the vid and witnesses said http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...ml#post7930211
@bbratuse
Thanks for this. Interesting take on the possible CRM issues from the "older KAL Captain" (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...ml#post7930223)
From the NTSB press conference yesterday, (at least I think it was!) the matter seems to be additionally complicated by the TC in the right seat having about the same amount of experience (as TC) as the trainee Captain (left seat) had on type . . . . a month was what they said.
Given that the purser has stated that there were 2 Captains and a F/O on the flight deck, it would seem that the F/O (from the relief crew) was in the jump seat behind a T/C who was himself "junior" (in your words) to the trainee Captain with 43 hours on type doing his first approach (in type) to SFO. Quite a scenario if and when the "seniority" you mention is put before proper CRM
Would one of the moderators please explain why when I post a link to the amateur footage on the BBC News site, that post gets deleted - twice - without any explanation or comment. I'm only trying to be helpful for goodness sake
@jugofpropwash
Why on earth would the pilot not order an immediate evacuation as soon as the plane came to rest? They crashed. Planes that have crashed tend to catch fire. So get off the plane!!!
Whatever it was, his purser had the time to regain her wits, enter the flight deck and check that everyone was OK after an impact hard enough to rip off everything below the fuselage and a nose-down, 270 degree pirouette that Darcey Bussell would be proud of before he had the time to conclude that getting off might be a good idea
@islandflyer
Many thanks for posting the harrowing account from the UA 747 F/O, which seems to concur with what the vid and witnesses said http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...ml#post7930211
@bbratuse
Thanks for this. Interesting take on the possible CRM issues from the "older KAL Captain" (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...ml#post7930223)
From the NTSB press conference yesterday, (at least I think it was!) the matter seems to be additionally complicated by the TC in the right seat having about the same amount of experience (as TC) as the trainee Captain (left seat) had on type . . . . a month was what they said.
Given that the purser has stated that there were 2 Captains and a F/O on the flight deck, it would seem that the F/O (from the relief crew) was in the jump seat behind a T/C who was himself "junior" (in your words) to the trainee Captain with 43 hours on type doing his first approach (in type) to SFO. Quite a scenario if and when the "seniority" you mention is put before proper CRM
Last edited by NamelessWonder; 9th Jul 2013 at 07:07.
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The Steed, while I understand your concern I, also lowly SLF, do selfishly gleen a level of comfort from this as I will be travelling in the back of a 777, on a long haul route, in a couple of months so I'm encouraged by the obvious strength and resilience that Boeing have managed to build into the airframe. I also suspect that this accident will be in the minds of everyone concerned for quite a while so, (and I know I'm pre-empting the NTSB here, but I think we're all expecting the same outcome) I doubt that anyone tasked with pointing these machines in the right direction is likely to make the same mistakes again in the forseeable future. I may however see if I can opt for an exit row seat (the extra legroom, of course), and will ensure I carry my documents with me and keep my belt extra tightly fastened throughout! 
Last edited by justawanab; 9th Jul 2013 at 07:11.
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Make a nice change from reading that pilots should monitor airspeed and other things we pros never knew.
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.. there is wide range of arguments, wheter handy flying should be trained more or not, you can guess about technical problems that occured and lead to this incident,... we can dicuss and have another wild guess, which (wrong?) decissions of the flight crew occured ...
From my point of view there is just thing, I am wondering about: As far as I read in the news, this final approach wasn t stable at all ... it s policy of all airlines, I do know at least, that you´ve to abort the approach, when your a/c couldn t be stabalized until the MAPt. So, that s my question number one: Why didn t this happen? GA -> another approach, RWY 28R, etc
From my point of view there is just thing, I am wondering about: As far as I read in the news, this final approach wasn t stable at all ... it s policy of all airlines, I do know at least, that you´ve to abort the approach, when your a/c couldn t be stabalized until the MAPt. So, that s my question number one: Why didn t this happen? GA -> another approach, RWY 28R, etc
Last edited by cosmick251; 9th Jul 2013 at 07:17.
So wait, just because all accidents can't be avoided with increased automation, means it's a fool's errand? Do you skip wearing a seatbelt just because seatbelts can't protect you against death in all accidents? No one is arguing that automation can protect against ALL failures, we're just saying that there are SOME failures not yet protected against, that reasonably could be.
If I was reliant on automation I'd probably be dead now. It has nearly killed me twice.
Competant pilots and quality training is the answer......like they use to do.
As a lowly SLF, I have to say that reading this thread scares the living bejebus out of me if the assumptions about pilot error are correct.
To take this to a very basic level, my understanding is that the pilot crashed a perfectly serviceable plane because he (rather than the computer) had to, er, fly it?!
To take this to a very basic level, my understanding is that the pilot crashed a perfectly serviceable plane because he (rather than the computer) had to, er, fly it?!
There you are, as a private pilot, thinking that the basics or what you learn and must be able to do first, is to be able land a serviceable aircraft in benign weather conditions and with everything working.
Once you've mastered this, you start improving your knowledge and skills by doing the same thing with (simulated) failed components (e.g. airspeed indicator), and/or in inclement weather. You have then progressed to a more advanced level.
At this stage you have the feeling that you know something about flying and what it takes to do it successfully.
However, this incident has proven that you know close to nothing. In the world of heavier aircraft this doesn't count anymore, it is a completely different world and completely different aircraft and procedures with nothing in common with small aircraft.
This is confirmed by the repeated posts throughout the entire thread blaming Airbus/Boeing, finding faults or quirks with the autothrottle, blaming the airport and/or just about everything else other than what you thought was lacking basic piloting skills.
I'm humbled, and grateful to of all those who have contributed in putting me right.
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Ever worse
PPRuNe had already a thread to "learn" crosswind landing to licensed, qualified (!!!) pilots, now airline pilots"(???) and PIC have to use help of internet fora to learn very ordinary landing !!! How low is aviation going ? Qualifications are signed to pilots who are no more able to manage the flight, no more able to pilot aircraft -handfly or AP - Certifications are signed to aircrafts with unreadable flight laws or flamable batteries, Airlines get used to throw and destroy the plane and paxes n the forests, in the ocean, in lagon, in seawalls, proud if only someones are diing... Why is it said "expensive" to train the crews ?
Answer : with the money they only buy and buy and buy aircrafts.
It reminds me when I had to write a paper about sound pollution in international law (middle 1980's) and the french DGAC told me France and "Europe" would forbide aircrafts to land/take off with more than certain Decibels to oblig sovietic countries to buy AIRBUSes.I swore it was, and we see it has been reeched. Not only the sound is decreasing but air safety and crews' skills to sve money to spend it buying new planes.
Answer : with the money they only buy and buy and buy aircrafts.
It reminds me when I had to write a paper about sound pollution in international law (middle 1980's) and the french DGAC told me France and "Europe" would forbide aircrafts to land/take off with more than certain Decibels to oblig sovietic countries to buy AIRBUSes.I swore it was, and we see it has been reeched. Not only the sound is decreasing but air safety and crews' skills to sve money to spend it buying new planes.
Last edited by roulishollandais; 9th Jul 2013 at 07:37.
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Seniority in Asian cultures
As someone employed in Tokyo, I am acutely aware of the issue of "intake seniority" which seems to have been working at cross puposes in this accident with the trainee PF having "intake seniority" over the more experieinced PM.
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...ml#post7930223
This power of this cultural restraint is something that has to be experienced to be fully understood. At our company, staff hesitate to leave the elevator until the intake seniority has been worked out and the more senior person leaves first and the second more senior follows, and so on. When someone is promoted to company president, all those with greater intake seniority obviously must immediately retire. On Valentine's Day equivalent I have to offer my box of chocolates box around the office in terms of strict intake seniority of the females involved, so they get the pick of the best chocolates. Etc. etc.
I would suggest that at this landing at SF, PM would have felt extremely inhibited about saying anything to PF.
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...ml#post7930223
This power of this cultural restraint is something that has to be experienced to be fully understood. At our company, staff hesitate to leave the elevator until the intake seniority has been worked out and the more senior person leaves first and the second more senior follows, and so on. When someone is promoted to company president, all those with greater intake seniority obviously must immediately retire. On Valentine's Day equivalent I have to offer my box of chocolates box around the office in terms of strict intake seniority of the females involved, so they get the pick of the best chocolates. Etc. etc.
I would suggest that at this landing at SF, PM would have felt extremely inhibited about saying anything to PF.
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@Claybird
Bit harsh. I did make it quite clear that my post was based on an assumption, which I might add is the same assumption that a lot of other posters have also made in the course of this thread.
And with all due respect to you - I think you have missed my point. I don't really care if/ when a pilot hand flies an airplane. What I do care about is when a pilot does have to hand fly, he has the requisite skills to do so without crashing the plane!
Bit harsh. I did make it quite clear that my post was based on an assumption, which I might add is the same assumption that a lot of other posters have also made in the course of this thread.
And with all due respect to you - I think you have missed my point. I don't really care if/ when a pilot hand flies an airplane. What I do care about is when a pilot does have to hand fly, he has the requisite skills to do so without crashing the plane!
Let me see......the Training Captain watches as the trainee lets the IAS drop below VRef by a LOT with the Thrust Levers at Idle approaching the sea wall..............AND YOU THINK HE SAID NOTHING BECAUSE THE TRAINEE WAS SENIOR TO HIM.............
The mind boggles..........
The mind boggles..........
Last edited by nitpicker330; 9th Jul 2013 at 08:09.
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When will the aviation industry wake up and start issuing NOTAMS in normal plain English. Do you think non native with English as a second language really can get to grip with the NOTAM gobbledygook we face everyday?
SFO, RWY, ILS, NAV, 28L, are all terms that are used to input data into a FMC and should be familiar to all pilots flying modern automated aircraft regardless of whether they are native English speakers or not?