Asiana flight crash at San Francisco
B-HKD
You are wrong to say that the crew won't fly again. For that to be the case then they would have to be guilty of something. The report will take months to complete so it's just down to your extremely limited knowledge of the facts.
Why oh why do people on this forum feel justified in condemning the crew with no cockpit transcript, ATC Comms, flight parameters etc. Thankfully, the NTSB will not make any comment not backed by evidence. Sorry to get on my high horse but I used to write technical reports in a previous life so the thought of spouting crap before engaging brain seems alien to me. Apologies to those of you offering good points to the debate.
You are wrong to say that the crew won't fly again. For that to be the case then they would have to be guilty of something. The report will take months to complete so it's just down to your extremely limited knowledge of the facts.
Why oh why do people on this forum feel justified in condemning the crew with no cockpit transcript, ATC Comms, flight parameters etc. Thankfully, the NTSB will not make any comment not backed by evidence. Sorry to get on my high horse but I used to write technical reports in a previous life so the thought of spouting crap before engaging brain seems alien to me. Apologies to those of you offering good points to the debate.
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Years ago I happened to be in an office when the house (3 floors) caught fire somewhere 'up there' (a flat on the top floor, as it appeared later). Everyone grabbed the papers on the desks (me, too, as that's what was going on around me) and run out. How's that explainable?
Bomb scares in pubs, now, that's another matter. I was in a London pub once upon a time, and we were told to evacuate immediately, bomb scare, leave drinks behind. Of course whilst we were still milling around outside closing time passed, so I never did get to finish the drink. Locals (who were no doubt more used than I to the uncivilised tenor of London life - bomb scares etc) disobeyed the instructions and took their drinks with them, and thus got to finish them, and I would next time too.
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Visual Approaches
Having done my fair share of visual approaches over the years I have never really liked flying them, and not for the reasons you might think. The reason I don't like them is because typically it requires low level maneuvering so that I don't piss off the home owners who decided to buy a home under the flight path to an airport that has been in it's current location for decades. It's stupid and can lead to the crash we all are aware of now. I don't know the reasons behind yesterdays crash and I'm not going to speculate as to what happened, I was not in the cockpit.
As for Korean Pilots vs the rest of us. I have flown with some pretty good drivers who happen to be Korean. They are not all inept and dependent on a straight in ILS auto pilot driven arrival. Like any pilot group you have many good ones and then one or two that may make you wonder. I'm sure most of you have flown with at least one of these guys during your careers.
Lets try to keep this and any topic a little less accusatory and try to examine what happened and what can be learned from a fellow aviator who had a really bad day.
As for Korean Pilots vs the rest of us. I have flown with some pretty good drivers who happen to be Korean. They are not all inept and dependent on a straight in ILS auto pilot driven arrival. Like any pilot group you have many good ones and then one or two that may make you wonder. I'm sure most of you have flown with at least one of these guys during your careers.
Lets try to keep this and any topic a little less accusatory and try to examine what happened and what can be learned from a fellow aviator who had a really bad day.
Last edited by 400drvr; 7th Jul 2013 at 22:07.
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I guess there were "cultural" issues here too ?
The flight crew and five commuting pilots riding as passengers all tossed out their luggage and Christmas gifts out the window as they were evacuating a burning aircraft, endangering the lives of those behind them.
The accident was caused by a hard landing after a visual approach. The flying pilot was not a Korean but was a US female. Anyone want to risk writing about the airmenship of the female pilots they flew with here or is this kind of liberty taboo and only allowed when speaking of non-western people ?
Fed Ex Flight 647 Airline Crash - YouTube
The flight crew and five commuting pilots riding as passengers all tossed out their luggage and Christmas gifts out the window as they were evacuating a burning aircraft, endangering the lives of those behind them.
The accident was caused by a hard landing after a visual approach. The flying pilot was not a Korean but was a US female. Anyone want to risk writing about the airmenship of the female pilots they flew with here or is this kind of liberty taboo and only allowed when speaking of non-western people ?
Fed Ex Flight 647 Airline Crash - YouTube
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PAPI voting
J.O said
Actually, of those who have said they have flown in/out of KSFO in the last day or so it is 2 saying PAPI operational and 1 saying inop. And 2 to 0 for those who explicitly describe arriving:
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...ml#post7925962
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...ml#post7925998
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...ml#post7927159
Edited to remove week old experience.
There are several posts throughout this thread from pilots who have operated into SFO recently and all of them have stated that the PAPIs have been out of service on 28L and 28R for some time now.
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...ml#post7925962
Conducted LOC approach into SFO last night, glideslope out of service for both 28R & L due construction (until August 22nd) , PAPI was working last night. Departed this morning in relatively calm winds, visual approaches were in use for the 28's.
Departed SFO yesterday, no VASIS, PAPIS or ILS at KSFO. Only G/S available according to NOTAMS is what's in your FMS.
It sucks, it's asking for trouble.
It sucks, it's asking for trouble.
I departed SFO a few hours before this tragic accident in a heavy jet.
Our approach to SFO was 'interesting' to say the least. It was the usual, over the field and downwind at 11000 ft, full speedbrake and lots of flap to get down before the inevitable early turn to base.
Cleared for a visual on 28L maintaining own separation from an A320 joining visually on 28R.
High ROD to catch up with the ideal vertical approach path while turning final while watching the other jet.
28L LOC transmitting so followed that, back to Vref+5 early to avoid overtaking the A320 on 28R but end up alongside.
Below 1000ft the (local) A320 flying visually on the right wanders off the centreline towards us. TCAS TA goes bananas but RA inhibited below 800ft. We quickly discuss going around before he corrects back towards his centreline. Look forwards to see four whites on the PAPI's (I had been concentrating looking right at the VERY close A320 for approx 10 secs).
Reduce thrust, set 1000ft ROD, regain profile by 200ft, flare and touch down.
All this after a ten hour flight when it's past 4am on my body clock. How nice it would have been to fly a nice lazy ILS instead.
It's an accident waiting to happen, and it did.
Our approach to SFO was 'interesting' to say the least. It was the usual, over the field and downwind at 11000 ft, full speedbrake and lots of flap to get down before the inevitable early turn to base.
Cleared for a visual on 28L maintaining own separation from an A320 joining visually on 28R.
High ROD to catch up with the ideal vertical approach path while turning final while watching the other jet.
28L LOC transmitting so followed that, back to Vref+5 early to avoid overtaking the A320 on 28R but end up alongside.
Below 1000ft the (local) A320 flying visually on the right wanders off the centreline towards us. TCAS TA goes bananas but RA inhibited below 800ft. We quickly discuss going around before he corrects back towards his centreline. Look forwards to see four whites on the PAPI's (I had been concentrating looking right at the VERY close A320 for approx 10 secs).
Reduce thrust, set 1000ft ROD, regain profile by 200ft, flare and touch down.
All this after a ten hour flight when it's past 4am on my body clock. How nice it would have been to fly a nice lazy ILS instead.
It's an accident waiting to happen, and it did.
Last edited by jehrler; 7th Jul 2013 at 19:44.
I've deleted my original post as it was in response to one by B-HKD which has also been deleted.
Anyway, please please let the good guys and gals up in Washington do what they are trained for: painstakingly recreate the the events that gave rise to this tragic accident and maybe we can all learn from it.
As there is a debate about how easy it is to fly a visual approach I'll add my two penn'orth. Yes of course all commercial pilots should/must be able to perform these but they are not as easy as some of you think when you may be tired and out of practise. As a FO I could easily be landing after a month with no sectors. Also, big aircraft don't lend themselves to visual approaches if you are not in practise flying them especially somewhere like SFO where you may have been kept high and fly fully dragged up at idle thrust for an extended period.
Anyway, please please let the good guys and gals up in Washington do what they are trained for: painstakingly recreate the the events that gave rise to this tragic accident and maybe we can all learn from it.
As there is a debate about how easy it is to fly a visual approach I'll add my two penn'orth. Yes of course all commercial pilots should/must be able to perform these but they are not as easy as some of you think when you may be tired and out of practise. As a FO I could easily be landing after a month with no sectors. Also, big aircraft don't lend themselves to visual approaches if you are not in practise flying them especially somewhere like SFO where you may have been kept high and fly fully dragged up at idle thrust for an extended period.
Last edited by BBK; 7th Jul 2013 at 20:03.
For those that are failing to understand,
Yes, commercial pilots should be capable of flying visual approaches.
Having a precision approach available adds one more slice to the Swiss cheese, helping to prevent an accident.
Had this a/c been flying a bog standard ILS, this accident probably wouldn't have happened.
If you are interested in having the safest possible airports, you supply the best possible type of approach all the time.
Much has been made of the national culture of the aircraft operators. IMVHO the national culture of the airport operators is just as big a factor. Visual approaches in heavy jets, LAHSO, Canarsie approaches. All significantly reduce safety. If somebody suggested switching off the ILS's at LHR they'd be laughed out the room.
The yanks are quick to blame pilots of a different culture, but if they had safety as a priority they'd want all pilots to have all the aids possible to be available to them.
Europeans think the Yanks are cowboys, the Yanks think Europeans are over cautious, god knows what the rest of the world thinks about both those groups.
If you don't take measures to accommodate these different cultures these accidents will continue to happen.
Edit to add, this is not meant to be a dig at American aviation, just an attempt to point out that each part of the world is 'different' when viewed from somewhere else.
Yes, commercial pilots should be capable of flying visual approaches.
Having a precision approach available adds one more slice to the Swiss cheese, helping to prevent an accident.
Had this a/c been flying a bog standard ILS, this accident probably wouldn't have happened.
If you are interested in having the safest possible airports, you supply the best possible type of approach all the time.
Much has been made of the national culture of the aircraft operators. IMVHO the national culture of the airport operators is just as big a factor. Visual approaches in heavy jets, LAHSO, Canarsie approaches. All significantly reduce safety. If somebody suggested switching off the ILS's at LHR they'd be laughed out the room.
The yanks are quick to blame pilots of a different culture, but if they had safety as a priority they'd want all pilots to have all the aids possible to be available to them.
Europeans think the Yanks are cowboys, the Yanks think Europeans are over cautious, god knows what the rest of the world thinks about both those groups.
If you don't take measures to accommodate these different cultures these accidents will continue to happen.
Edit to add, this is not meant to be a dig at American aviation, just an attempt to point out that each part of the world is 'different' when viewed from somewhere else.
Last edited by Locked door; 7th Jul 2013 at 19:58.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimpe
I've never felt comfortable with Prof Reason's "swiss cheese safety" description. It implies that environments such as aviation and medical care are naturally benign, with multiple protections in place, all functioning to optimum. Sounds nice on paper.
Originally Posted by Mimpe
I've never felt comfortable with Prof Reason's "swiss cheese safety" description. It implies that environments such as aviation and medical care are naturally benign, with multiple protections in place, all functioning to optimum. Sounds nice on paper.
That's the whole reason he used *swiss* cheese, as opposed to cheddar because *swiss* cheese has many large holes in it. You see; those holes in the slices of cheese are metaphors for defects, flaws, sub-optimalities, to use your parlance, in the safeguards.
It's interesting how Reason's model gets dismissed by some - but it's just a model that puts sometimes abstract things into an easily understandable form. One of the real benefits of doing a quick (or detailed) risk analysis is that you start to understand what can go wrong and what there is in place that can stop it happening....and then to identify more things that we can do to reduce the risk. For many working in aviation, it's the way we work - day in and day out - and have done for years, from long before SMS was a trendy buzzword (alright, a trendy acronym). But for some others the model can help distil a whole bunch of things into some order. Use it if it's useful, don't if it isn't - but don't dismiss the model, particularly if what it's telling you is that you need to do more to mitigate the risks.
I don't care if you are Korean, Ozzie, Yank, Kiwi etc. If this is a case of a crew 'crashing' a serviceable aircraft due to the ILS being U/S and getting themselves out of shape then it is verging on criminal. At ANY point if the apporach is going wrong you have the option to throw it away and start again, it is quite frankly becoming embarrassing just how bad the standards in our profession are getting.
Of course we have to wait for the report to come out, there could be things at play here that none of us know about. And in this case I hope to god there is some 'unknown' cause for a modern jet airliner crashing and killing to passengers as pure human error would be unbelievable.
Of course we have to wait for the report to come out, there could be things at play here that none of us know about. And in this case I hope to god there is some 'unknown' cause for a modern jet airliner crashing and killing to passengers as pure human error would be unbelievable.
Last edited by Ollie Onion; 7th Jul 2013 at 20:08.
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My take on Korean pilots in general, formed during a week-long joint USAF exercise is that as a rule they are impeccably motivated, prepared, disciplined, and professional.
I've seen a report that the PIC on the San Francisco flight was an American female. Not confirmed.
I've seen a report that the PIC on the San Francisco flight was an American female. Not confirmed.
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Any fool can criticise and most fools do. Get all facts to this tragic accident then come back and say something sensible.
Those contributors involved in accident investigation are calling this right.
I don't argue with unconscious incompetents either so won't be wasting my time operating in the gutter.
Those contributors involved in accident investigation are calling this right.
I don't argue with unconscious incompetents either so won't be wasting my time operating in the gutter.
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Locked door is correct. Safety measures should be made to accommodate the least common denominator. Being able to do a visual landing is over-rated. Flying is nothing more than being able to plug data into a computer.
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Be cautious
My first post here even I've been with an European flag carrier for almost three decades.
I'm a bit worried about how eager some are, and quick too, to blame the crew, the ILS (or the lack of it), and everything without a single piece of evidence. Please remember, we are meant to be professionals, balanced, thinking, and in general intelligent men and women, even though some choose to undermine their profession (in my opinion) by calling themselves "drivers".
The point is, the investigation has barely started, most of the information people are using to draw their conclusion from comes from media, TV-footage from distance and some other ambiguous sources.
Why don't we all wait for the results, and then tell our opinion?
I'm a bit worried about how eager some are, and quick too, to blame the crew, the ILS (or the lack of it), and everything without a single piece of evidence. Please remember, we are meant to be professionals, balanced, thinking, and in general intelligent men and women, even though some choose to undermine their profession (in my opinion) by calling themselves "drivers".
The point is, the investigation has barely started, most of the information people are using to draw their conclusion from comes from media, TV-footage from distance and some other ambiguous sources.
Why don't we all wait for the results, and then tell our opinion?
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Much has been made of the national culture of the aircraft operators. IMVHO the national culture of the airport operators is just as big a factor. Visual approaches in heavy jets, LAHSO, Canarsie approaches. All significantly reduce safety. If somebody suggested switching off the ILS's at LHR they'd be laughed out the room.