Asiana flight crash at San Francisco
Paxing All Over The World
A4
Indeed.
BUT some of us are saying: "Keep your personal items of Passport/ID, money and cell phone on you until in the cruise. At ToD, once again place them in your pockets or in a SLIM-LINE wallet/bag over your shoulder or put your jacket on."
Then you do not have to do anything to get them as they are already with you.
Lastly, keep your lace up shoes on until the cruise and refasten them at ToD.
For all those espousing the benefits/rights/convenience of taking your possessions with you, might I suggest you do a bit of research about "flashover" fires?
BUT some of us are saying: "Keep your personal items of Passport/ID, money and cell phone on you until in the cruise. At ToD, once again place them in your pockets or in a SLIM-LINE wallet/bag over your shoulder or put your jacket on."
Then you do not have to do anything to get them as they are already with you.
Lastly, keep your lace up shoes on until the cruise and refasten them at ToD.
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Al Murdoch:
Let me be more explicit: There are combinations of weather and runways in use that can make KSFO a real challenge. However, a visual to 28L during the daytime with the good weather that existed at the time should be no challenge for any professional air carrier, even though it may be their first time there.
My point about my experience there (I was based there some of my career) is to point out that a visual to 28L on a nice day is hardly a technical challenge for any qualified air carrier pilot, experienced at the airport or not.
Perhaps that's because you are a) American and b) have flown there "many, many times".
My point about my experience there (I was based there some of my career) is to point out that a visual to 28L on a nice day is hardly a technical challenge for any qualified air carrier pilot, experienced at the airport or not.
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WTH?!?
I have about as much idea as anyone (except the crew) as to what really happened, however some of the post on here are mind-blowing. Again - not saying this about the crew (see first statement) - but to some of the previous posters:
If you can't land a heavy jet to a visual approach w/o a glideslope or VASI/PAPI in CAVU conditions, I don't want you flying my family or me, period dot.
I hate to say this, I'm not the best pilot ever, and like many of you, I have flown Asia-US, overnight, tired, etc as a PIC to visual conditions. I have had the luxury/benefit of some very good training programs from ASEL private to my last PC. I thought this was basic stuff!!!
I have not flown the 777, but I would imagine that there are similar rules of thumb to calculate a ROD wag from your groundspeed, 3 to 1 rules, etc. None of these require VASI/PAPI or glideslope/path indicators.
My basic frustration is some of you thinking that a failed cross check is an excuse. Am I on my visual profile profile (900' @ 3miles, 600' @ 2miles, etc). I am? Good. Aimpoint, Airspeed. Still on profile? Ok. Aimpoint, Airspeed. Yes, there is more that goes into it as we introduce automation, but c'mon - is this or isn't this a stabilized approach??? If not, fix it or go-around. We've got way too much responsibility to be 'lazy' - and I thought I was the laziest type 'z' person I knew.
Again, my best to the crew. I can't even imagine the guilt (whether or not it was their 'fault') of having a fatality associated with one of my flights.
For the rest of us, please - if you really don't know how to do something that should be trivial, fess up and learn it and incorporate that in your bag of SA.
Cheers
If you can't land a heavy jet to a visual approach w/o a glideslope or VASI/PAPI in CAVU conditions, I don't want you flying my family or me, period dot.
I hate to say this, I'm not the best pilot ever, and like many of you, I have flown Asia-US, overnight, tired, etc as a PIC to visual conditions. I have had the luxury/benefit of some very good training programs from ASEL private to my last PC. I thought this was basic stuff!!!
I have not flown the 777, but I would imagine that there are similar rules of thumb to calculate a ROD wag from your groundspeed, 3 to 1 rules, etc. None of these require VASI/PAPI or glideslope/path indicators.
My basic frustration is some of you thinking that a failed cross check is an excuse. Am I on my visual profile profile (900' @ 3miles, 600' @ 2miles, etc). I am? Good. Aimpoint, Airspeed. Still on profile? Ok. Aimpoint, Airspeed. Yes, there is more that goes into it as we introduce automation, but c'mon - is this or isn't this a stabilized approach??? If not, fix it or go-around. We've got way too much responsibility to be 'lazy' - and I thought I was the laziest type 'z' person I knew.
Again, my best to the crew. I can't even imagine the guilt (whether or not it was their 'fault') of having a fatality associated with one of my flights.
For the rest of us, please - if you really don't know how to do something that should be trivial, fess up and learn it and incorporate that in your bag of SA.
Cheers
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Boxster:
Look at the UA232 crash video, I always thought that had cartwheeled but it was just one wing lifting high before settling down again. This one could have done the same thing, and it might account for the position of #1 engine.
PAXboy:
The grim side to that is that it's also easier to identify casualties.
The shape of the score mark gives credibility to the "cartwheel" report, although it probably spun like a saucer, and spinning off the engine that came to rest some distance away.
PAXboy:
BUT some of us are saying: "Keep your personal items of Passport/ID, money and cell phone on you until in the cruise. At ToD, once again place them in your pockets or in a SLIM-LINE wallet/bag over your shoulder or put your jacket on."
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Perhaps this lion air accident has similarities, landing over water short of runway?
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...down-bali.html
Boeing article on tail strikes.
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aer...7_article2.pdf
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...down-bali.html
Boeing article on tail strikes.
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aer...7_article2.pdf
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Its been a very interesting thread so far and as usual the opinions are as varied as could be expected.
A few points to consider:
1. For those like myself who are speculating about the G/S and PAPI being a factor to this particular accident on this particular day, that's all it is. A FACTOR. We are not (at least I am not) excusing the crew for making the error (if that was the case) but just pointing out FACTORS (along with fatigue, unfamiliar airports, aircraft system idiosyncrasies, slam dunk approaches, etc, etc, etc..) that could have contributed to errors being made....
2. If you have flown for 32 years and never had an accident, kudos to you. It demonstrates professionalism, experience, good airmanship and perhaps a little luck but you may end up having an accident in your 33rd year. No pilot goes flying with the intention to have an accident. There is no reason to assume that the crew have not flown a visual into this or another airports before at some point in their career. How many highly decorated, multi 10,000 hr pilots have had accidents? Appreciate the unexpected nature of accidents and have empathy for our compatriots when they end up with the short end of stick.
3. It is said by those who have had a chance to observe the culture (and interestingly those who have not), that the Asians, the Africans and Middle Eastern pilots are rigid in their thinking and training and find it difficult to adapt to dynamic and fluid situations. That may or may not be the case but STATISTICALLY airline accidents occur all over the world including Europe and the U.S. which suggests that accidents occurs for other reasons other than being able to "think outside the box".
Accident rates have gone down considerably in the US over the years, but our past history is replete with crews making all kinds of errors that led to disaster. Could it be that we are further along the aviation evolutionary curve than other regions?
So, lets keep the speculation going, indeed that's what the board is for - to express our opinions based on experience, knowledge and things we have heard- but lets keep it respectful, professional and empathetic....
A few points to consider:
1. For those like myself who are speculating about the G/S and PAPI being a factor to this particular accident on this particular day, that's all it is. A FACTOR. We are not (at least I am not) excusing the crew for making the error (if that was the case) but just pointing out FACTORS (along with fatigue, unfamiliar airports, aircraft system idiosyncrasies, slam dunk approaches, etc, etc, etc..) that could have contributed to errors being made....
2. If you have flown for 32 years and never had an accident, kudos to you. It demonstrates professionalism, experience, good airmanship and perhaps a little luck but you may end up having an accident in your 33rd year. No pilot goes flying with the intention to have an accident. There is no reason to assume that the crew have not flown a visual into this or another airports before at some point in their career. How many highly decorated, multi 10,000 hr pilots have had accidents? Appreciate the unexpected nature of accidents and have empathy for our compatriots when they end up with the short end of stick.
3. It is said by those who have had a chance to observe the culture (and interestingly those who have not), that the Asians, the Africans and Middle Eastern pilots are rigid in their thinking and training and find it difficult to adapt to dynamic and fluid situations. That may or may not be the case but STATISTICALLY airline accidents occur all over the world including Europe and the U.S. which suggests that accidents occurs for other reasons other than being able to "think outside the box".
Accident rates have gone down considerably in the US over the years, but our past history is replete with crews making all kinds of errors that led to disaster. Could it be that we are further along the aviation evolutionary curve than other regions?
So, lets keep the speculation going, indeed that's what the board is for - to express our opinions based on experience, knowledge and things we have heard- but lets keep it respectful, professional and empathetic....
Last edited by Jasavir; 7th Jul 2013 at 17:13.
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I'm surprised no one has commented on what a narrow escape this event had.
Pictures of the impact on the sea wall show that the Stbd engine struck the ground within the first few yards of the terrain suggesting that the gear must have been some, what? 8 - 10 ft below the level of the landing surface. This would suggest a fuselage impact on the crest of the sea wall fairly close behind the main gear which seems indicated by the photo on the previous page (see distortion of lwr aft fuselage), the detachment of the empennage so early in the event and the severe upward crushing of the aft pressure bulkhead which suggests it was way below the level of the terrain when it struck. I don't think this was a tailstrike, more a mid-body strike and the debris on the runway suggests mangled baggage remains from the aft belly being torn out to me.
My view is that if the aircraft had been a foot or two lower, just that much, the bodycount would have been in the hundreds.
As it is, the profile so graphically shown on page 7 or 8 of this thread shows a clear picture of a high approach, rapid descent to compensate, descent over-corrected at low level and aircraft fallen short . Eye witness reports (for once some seem credible) suggest the aircraft was seen to have handling difficulties which is quite in keeping with this scenario, struggling to prolong a glide while engines spooled up, plus on board reports of the power coming on late in the event.
Time will tell and no doubt there will be other factors involved but the scenario suggested above seems as credible as any.
Pictures of the impact on the sea wall show that the Stbd engine struck the ground within the first few yards of the terrain suggesting that the gear must have been some, what? 8 - 10 ft below the level of the landing surface. This would suggest a fuselage impact on the crest of the sea wall fairly close behind the main gear which seems indicated by the photo on the previous page (see distortion of lwr aft fuselage), the detachment of the empennage so early in the event and the severe upward crushing of the aft pressure bulkhead which suggests it was way below the level of the terrain when it struck. I don't think this was a tailstrike, more a mid-body strike and the debris on the runway suggests mangled baggage remains from the aft belly being torn out to me.
My view is that if the aircraft had been a foot or two lower, just that much, the bodycount would have been in the hundreds.
As it is, the profile so graphically shown on page 7 or 8 of this thread shows a clear picture of a high approach, rapid descent to compensate, descent over-corrected at low level and aircraft fallen short . Eye witness reports (for once some seem credible) suggest the aircraft was seen to have handling difficulties which is quite in keeping with this scenario, struggling to prolong a glide while engines spooled up, plus on board reports of the power coming on late in the event.
Time will tell and no doubt there will be other factors involved but the scenario suggested above seems as credible as any.
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https://soundcloud.com/kgoradio/towe...o-aar214-crash
Action starts just before one minute in-talk of emergency vehicle request and tower responding. More, much more to this accident than is being released....
Action starts just before one minute in-talk of emergency vehicle request and tower responding. More, much more to this accident than is being released....
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As a passenger: If the crew is commanding an emergency evacuation, and you are in the aisle attempting to recover baggage and are between me and the nearest exit, I will do my best to disable you, and if you get trampled by the rest of the passengers on their way out, TFB.
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Is this the first 777 hull loss/accident involving fatalities??
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To the idiotic suggestion of locking the overhead bins with the seatbelt signs, we're going to start evacuating aircraft with the seatbelt signs ON now are we??
(Admittedly the punters don't pay too much attention to them anyway but still...)
(Admittedly the punters don't pay too much attention to them anyway but still...)
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FlightAware data
Several people have commented on the final points in the FlightAware track log and their reliability. The last three points are interesting - the first two of these plot horizontally exactly on the extended centerline (as they should), but the final one plots about 3,000 feet beyond the aircraft's final resting place (on the centerline of 1R/19L).
The second to last point is about 750 feet from the sea wall, and the ROD is 120. The time interval between these positions is about 10 seconds. The final point would have been recorded after the tail strike on the sea wall, which would have occurred about 4 seconds after the next to last point was recorded. Therefore, the 120 fpm rate of climb given for the final point is meaningless, as is its altitude - the aircraft was already on the ground. The reason for the erroneous lat/long for the final point is unknown. The FDR data will resolve all of this.
See these posts and compare them to the Google Earth image of the runway:
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...ml#post7926888
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...ml#post7927198
The second to last point is about 750 feet from the sea wall, and the ROD is 120. The time interval between these positions is about 10 seconds. The final point would have been recorded after the tail strike on the sea wall, which would have occurred about 4 seconds after the next to last point was recorded. Therefore, the 120 fpm rate of climb given for the final point is meaningless, as is its altitude - the aircraft was already on the ground. The reason for the erroneous lat/long for the final point is unknown. The FDR data will resolve all of this.
See these posts and compare them to the Google Earth image of the runway:
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...ml#post7926888
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/5...ml#post7927198
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[quote] A fatigued crew has flown half way round the world[quote]
Is this the standard aircrew opt out now days?
There were 4 crew onboard, at best maybe suffering from sleepiness, fatigue oh well let's wait for the enquiry..............
Is this the standard aircrew opt out now days?
There were 4 crew onboard, at best maybe suffering from sleepiness, fatigue oh well let's wait for the enquiry..............
Last edited by Mr Angry from Purley; 7th Jul 2013 at 17:19.
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Originally Posted by green granite
Someone, a few pages back, queried how we knew the PAPIs were out:
NOTAM SFO 07/046
!SFO 07/046 SFO RWY 28L PAPI OTS WEF 1307062219
CREATED: 06 Jul 2013 22:19:00
SOURCE: KOAKYFYX
also:
NOTAM SFO 06/005
!SFO 06/005 SFO NAV ILS RWY 28L GP OTS WEF 1306011400-1308222359
CREATED: 01 Jun 2013 13:40:00
SOURCE: KOAKYFYX
NOTAM SFO 07/046
!SFO 07/046 SFO RWY 28L PAPI OTS WEF 1307062219
CREATED: 06 Jul 2013 22:19:00
SOURCE: KOAKYFYX
also:
NOTAM SFO 06/005
!SFO 06/005 SFO NAV ILS RWY 28L GP OTS WEF 1306011400-1308222359
CREATED: 01 Jun 2013 13:40:00
SOURCE: KOAKYFYX
Last edited by A Squared; 7th Jul 2013 at 17:50.