Asiana flight crash at San Francisco
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At risk of being repetitive...
Am unsure how the debate about the authority gradient applies when both crew are Captains and the more senior one is an instructor PNF in the RHS. Is there anything culturally that would prevent him from speaking out?
Just how does the much discussed cultural difficulty apply here, because all the previous posts on this subject that is every single one of them, assume a FO in the RHS and a Capt in the left. Which just isn't the case here.
So what does the Capt under training/ line training instructor dynamic mean here?
Just how does the much discussed cultural difficulty apply here, because all the previous posts on this subject that is every single one of them, assume a FO in the RHS and a Capt in the left. Which just isn't the case here.
So what does the Capt under training/ line training instructor dynamic mean here?
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Question to 777 aviators
Can you descend with FLCH without selecting a lower level on your ALT select window? (Sorry, not familiar with Boeing acronyms)
If so, what is the minimum selected altitude? MDA?
and finally, if and when, reaching the MDA, doesn't the Auto Throttle "awake"?
If so, what is the minimum selected altitude? MDA?
and finally, if and when, reaching the MDA, doesn't the Auto Throttle "awake"?
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The aviation profession has ignored basic "stick and rudder" skills for far too long and and are finding out the hard way ,that it is as important to safety, as well as all the other pilot skills and training.
Too much automation and too few skilled airmen makes for unnecessary fatalities IMHO.
I do not pretend to know the cause of this accident but I do know there will be many more until the industry decides to change it's ways.
Too much automation and too few skilled airmen makes for unnecessary fatalities IMHO.
I do not pretend to know the cause of this accident but I do know there will be many more until the industry decides to change it's ways.
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ManaAdaSystem asked:
2) The PF on the Asiana flight was the junior pilot in type conversion training, and he was under the supervision of the trainer sitting on the right side, so here there is no issue of "Asian FO's not able to speak up against the captain." If the PF did anything stupid, there would be no hesitation by the trainer to speak up and do something about it.
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She's acting as a spokesperson, and I thought she did an excellent job of managing the Sunday press conference - giving the media technical information plus layperson-type explanation without dumbing it down or sounding patronising. She repeated each press inquiry for the benefit of others, summing up the question concisely and being clear what the parameters of her answer were. I'm planning to copy her technique next time I'm in front of a crowd!
NOT THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NTSB.
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[Not a pilot] Seven seconds from impact an "increase speed" command was given and not a "go-around" command. Had they cleared the sea wall could they have gotten the nose down enough to avoid the kind of landing experienced by Turkish Air 1951 in Schiphol?
My question is (if we allow that they thought they had adequate speed) whether it is likely that they thought the landing could be salvaged with the nose-up attitude they had, the non-standard descent path, and relatively long runway.
My question is (if we allow that they thought they had adequate speed) whether it is likely that they thought the landing could be salvaged with the nose-up attitude they had, the non-standard descent path, and relatively long runway.
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Total automation or not?
Accidents like this and AF447 make me think that either 1) built in automation needs to increase, to where pilots are never expected nor need to hand fly or 2) severely redress pilot training and proficiency standards.
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To have two huge slides inflate inside the cabin
Or a human error by someone manually inflating the slide.
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RE Asiana
If you are that low and steering around approach lights....the outcome can only get worse if you continue...A go-around should have been accomplished long before that point
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The NTSB Chair who is heading the 214 investigation and the official NTSB spokes person, has no expertise regarding aircraft, aviation, or investigations. She is a political appointee who was an intern for some US congressman, and then a paid employee. She lists her qualifications to head the National TRANSPOTATION SAFETY Board as having a drivers license. She says she is the the nation’s most visionary and passionate safety leader. Who knew the job was so easy!
FROM THE NTSB Website:
NTSB Chairman Deborah Hersman is recognized as one of the nation's most visionary and passionate safety leaders who advocates for safety across all modes of transportation. Among her many initiatives, Chairman Hersman has focused attention and actions on distracted driving, child passenger safety, and helping accident victims and their families. She emphasizes the NTSB's role as "the conscience and the compass of the transportation industry." Previously, Hersman was a senior advisor to the U.S. Senate Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation from 1999-2004 and served as Staff Director and Senior Legislative Aide to West Virginia Congressman Bob Wise from 1992-1999.
Chairman Hersman received B.A. degrees in Political Science and International Studies from Virginia Tech, and an M.S. in Conflict Analysis and Resolution from George Mason University. She holds a commercial driver's license (with passenger, school bus, and air brake endorsements) as well as a motorcycle endorsement. (she got the commercial license AFTER getting the job)
FROM THE NTSB Website:
NTSB Chairman Deborah Hersman is recognized as one of the nation's most visionary and passionate safety leaders who advocates for safety across all modes of transportation. Among her many initiatives, Chairman Hersman has focused attention and actions on distracted driving, child passenger safety, and helping accident victims and their families. She emphasizes the NTSB's role as "the conscience and the compass of the transportation industry." Previously, Hersman was a senior advisor to the U.S. Senate Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation from 1999-2004 and served as Staff Director and Senior Legislative Aide to West Virginia Congressman Bob Wise from 1992-1999.
Chairman Hersman received B.A. degrees in Political Science and International Studies from Virginia Tech, and an M.S. in Conflict Analysis and Resolution from George Mason University. She holds a commercial driver's license (with passenger, school bus, and air brake endorsements) as well as a motorcycle endorsement. (she got the commercial license AFTER getting the job)
Full bio, without the editing, is here: About Us - NTSB - National Transportation Safety Board
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NTSB briefing live stream
IIRC the slides on the 777 use a gas bottle inflation, normally the slide pack needs to drop over the door sill a certain distance to pull the pin on the bottle and thus inflate. But it is possible that impact/damage could set one off in the cabin.
IF the doors were opened with an obstruction outside, then it could send the slide into the cabin, however in THIS particular case it seems it happened while crew were still seated (I would guess at one of the impacts) Any mention of which doors? I don't think it would be L4 as that door can clearly be seen detached from the aircraft- however that slide could well have inflated as the door was pulled from the aircraft- but I don't see one or evidence that there was one from the (admittedly grainy) pictures
Normally, manual inflation can only be done once the door is open, via backup manual inflation handle located on the door sill (only visible when the door is open with slide deployed )
IF the doors were opened with an obstruction outside, then it could send the slide into the cabin, however in THIS particular case it seems it happened while crew were still seated (I would guess at one of the impacts) Any mention of which doors? I don't think it would be L4 as that door can clearly be seen detached from the aircraft- however that slide could well have inflated as the door was pulled from the aircraft- but I don't see one or evidence that there was one from the (admittedly grainy) pictures
Normally, manual inflation can only be done once the door is open, via backup manual inflation handle located on the door sill (only visible when the door is open with slide deployed )
Last edited by givemewings; 8th Jul 2013 at 18:34.
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I would prefer she have some technical knowledge in the area. Otherwise she will eventually end up sounding like the media and making stupid statements, and even worse making stupid decisions.
Mmmmm PPruuune!
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As is usual with these events the amount of BS spouted in 45 odd pages is breathtaking however, it is still worth trawling through for the gems hidden within.
The Flight Deck dynamic is a complex thing especially if viewed through foreign eyes and while striving for complete openness and the ability to understand, learn and disseminate information and cause, sadly there will be organisations who lag behind others. The whole CRM ideology should be applied here to the multinational arena to understand rather than criticise cultural differences.
One aspect not discussed is the dynamic of two experienced Captains operating together albeit in a training / trainee role. Especially pertinent is the fact the trainee had significant time on another type. It is all too easy to revert to type in stressful situations and what is most familiar - the 3 weeks in the sim and 9 sectors on a new type or the X thousand hours over many years on something different? It is not clear which type the PF had transitioned from so I am unsure of any flight mode foibles or differences but I retrained from B to A and can personally vouch as to the speed decay rate of a heavy airliner when it is levelled in full landing config. My mistake? Confusing A/T function! 2 months after conversion was kept hot and high on approach but still 10 miles out so I disconnected everything levelled, slowed, configured then descended to capture the glide at Vapp, work done AP and AT engaged, sat back and watched my handiwork go to ratxxx! However the TL were still at idle & the ABus needs the thrust levers to be in the Climb detent and won't engage from idle unlike the Boeing. Speed decay was rapid and spool up took forever! TOGA and a GA saved the day but if this had occurred at 500ft as opposed to 2300 ft it could have been another story. The stabilised approach criteria are there for a reason!
Quite what the trainer was doing I have no idea but again what was the FD environment like with two Capts? we shall have wait and see.
It's my belief that's what happened here and the question has to be why no GA off what is a clearly unstable approach. That was the last slice of emmental.
On the 737 one element of the 500ft stable call was thrust spooled up to approach setting, (that element is missing from the AB but is still in my consideration) is the 777 similar?
It's also the reason that anytime I am manually flying now I do so completely ie with both AP and AT off - all in or all out!
The Flight Deck dynamic is a complex thing especially if viewed through foreign eyes and while striving for complete openness and the ability to understand, learn and disseminate information and cause, sadly there will be organisations who lag behind others. The whole CRM ideology should be applied here to the multinational arena to understand rather than criticise cultural differences.
One aspect not discussed is the dynamic of two experienced Captains operating together albeit in a training / trainee role. Especially pertinent is the fact the trainee had significant time on another type. It is all too easy to revert to type in stressful situations and what is most familiar - the 3 weeks in the sim and 9 sectors on a new type or the X thousand hours over many years on something different? It is not clear which type the PF had transitioned from so I am unsure of any flight mode foibles or differences but I retrained from B to A and can personally vouch as to the speed decay rate of a heavy airliner when it is levelled in full landing config. My mistake? Confusing A/T function! 2 months after conversion was kept hot and high on approach but still 10 miles out so I disconnected everything levelled, slowed, configured then descended to capture the glide at Vapp, work done AP and AT engaged, sat back and watched my handiwork go to ratxxx! However the TL were still at idle & the ABus needs the thrust levers to be in the Climb detent and won't engage from idle unlike the Boeing. Speed decay was rapid and spool up took forever! TOGA and a GA saved the day but if this had occurred at 500ft as opposed to 2300 ft it could have been another story. The stabilised approach criteria are there for a reason!
Quite what the trainer was doing I have no idea but again what was the FD environment like with two Capts? we shall have wait and see.
It's my belief that's what happened here and the question has to be why no GA off what is a clearly unstable approach. That was the last slice of emmental.
On the 737 one element of the 500ft stable call was thrust spooled up to approach setting, (that element is missing from the AB but is still in my consideration) is the 777 similar?
It's also the reason that anytime I am manually flying now I do so completely ie with both AP and AT off - all in or all out!
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IIRC the slides on the 777 use a gas bottle inflation, normally the slide pack needs to drop over the door sill a certain distance to pull the pin on the bottle and thus inflate. But it is possible that impact/damage could set one off in the cabin.
Anyone know of other incidents of internal slide inflation?
Sounds like a pretty dangerous failure mode for multiple reasons.
second briefing streaming now
CNN is streaming today's press briefing live at:
CNN July 8 11:30 a.m. PDT briefing
CNN July 8 11:30 a.m. PDT briefing
Well by possible I mean it is within the realms of possibility, not that it is very likely. I am sure they have tested for this kind of thing. I've read of a couple but usually that was the result of crew opening an armed door into a jetway or catering truck and the slide deflecting back into the cabin.
ETA: When you think about the kind of impact forces seen in the video, I suppose it would be possible for a gas bottle pin to be forced out. The slide pack cover is some kind of plastic or composite which is easily removable for maintenance and on some types so that you can exchange slide packs between doors. Hence the "Do Not Sit" graphics on them. So if one did inflate it likely wouldn't take much to force off that cover on the door bustle and go inwards.
ETA: When you think about the kind of impact forces seen in the video, I suppose it would be possible for a gas bottle pin to be forced out. The slide pack cover is some kind of plastic or composite which is easily removable for maintenance and on some types so that you can exchange slide packs between doors. Hence the "Do Not Sit" graphics on them. So if one did inflate it likely wouldn't take much to force off that cover on the door bustle and go inwards.
Last edited by givemewings; 8th Jul 2013 at 18:47.
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CNN; NTSB says, as of Monday 3PM EST, that they have not interviewed the crew. Apparently, they are waiting for Korean authorities to assist.
I lived in Korea for 3 years. Nearly all Koreans speak English fairly well.
I lived in Korea for 3 years. Nearly all Koreans speak English fairly well.
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Just adding to speculative theories but I had been almost caught out in the sim once in a SFO slam dunk scenario...high and fast on base, so we had speedbrakes deployed full, then 3/4 way where we left it there as we completed the checks. Got onto 3degrees flight path at 500' AGL, but despite the more than normal setting, the aircraft just sank like a rock as we decrabbed due to a stiff crosswind. Went around and then noticed that the speedbrakes were still 3/4 deployed!!! Oops, double oops!
Oopsy daisy...we were overwhelmed by the slam dunk approach and also the anal procedures by the airline which required the PM to set runway heading, mouthing off " general call outs " to ensure correct runways as there were 2 parallel strips, ATC calls. Somehow we missed the EICAS warnings about speedbrakes. Well, that workload overload for you!
Oopsy daisy...we were overwhelmed by the slam dunk approach and also the anal procedures by the airline which required the PM to set runway heading, mouthing off " general call outs " to ensure correct runways as there were 2 parallel strips, ATC calls. Somehow we missed the EICAS warnings about speedbrakes. Well, that workload overload for you!