Air France does a 'Memmingen'.
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Originally Posted by Noland3
So what happened to 'Stable approach criteria?' Engines spooled, landing config etc etc.
up like that nor find you have missed a 500/1000' gate when it is glaringly obvious minutes before you have 'screwed the pooch'. As depone said "because it displays a long period of reckless indifference to the obvious fact that the approach was never going to work."
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I do not understand the reluctance of crews to ask ATC assistance in such instances. "Excuse me old chap, but could we turn 90 left or right to lose a spot of height, don't you know? Perhaps even an orbit?" The neck hairs should be getting active in such a scenario. Consider the CALI crash. They were hot and high and should never have attempted what they did; a straight in NPA. That was a non-starter, so was this, so why get sucked up a cup-de-sac, only to go Oops later on. Pissing into the wind is something ill-advised. You should be able to realise it ain't going to work even before you start.
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Originally Posted by Rat5
You should be able to realise it ain't going to work even before you start
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To note that the CVR was erased by the crew ...
This is not the first time regarding the Air France crew and this is nothing about penalty for this kind of behavior
This is not the first time regarding the Air France crew and this is nothing about penalty for this kind of behavior
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Wow.
But I have to ask WTF is wrong with Air France? I have seen myself this kind of approach in xxx in the Near East, and it looked like it would be great fun, if it had been in an A-10 Warthog instead of a 737. But WTF is Air France doing this for?
Air France have a downwind overrun. Then they have a team who could not understand why 20 degrees of pitch at 35,000 ft makes an aircraft go down instead of up. Then they nearly had a replay of the same incident. And now this?
I hope someone at KLM-Air France is having a rethink of training.
But I have to ask WTF is wrong with Air France? I have seen myself this kind of approach in xxx in the Near East, and it looked like it would be great fun, if it had been in an A-10 Warthog instead of a 737. But WTF is Air France doing this for?
Air France have a downwind overrun. Then they have a team who could not understand why 20 degrees of pitch at 35,000 ft makes an aircraft go down instead of up. Then they nearly had a replay of the same incident. And now this?
I hope someone at KLM-Air France is having a rethink of training.
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Rat 5
Excuse me old chap, but could we turn 90 left or right to lose a spot of height, don't you know?
Excuse me old chap, but could we turn 90 left or right to lose a spot of height, don't you know?
I had this just this spring in xxx (wild westville in the Near East), where I was invited to make an ILS approach from 6,500 ft at 10 miles. I was incredulous and said I was not a dive-bomber, while ATC could not understand why I had refused such a lovely approach.
But I have noted at this airport that the locals take these daft approaches as a challenge, and to refuse would be to lose honour and face, and so they try to get in whatever the request. Scary stuff when you see it happening so often.
Last edited by silverstrata; 15th Jun 2013 at 20:33.
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Intruder
I think you missed a word or two from the report....
The captain stowed the speed brakes and disengaged the autopilot again at 428 feet AGL, 2 seconds later 398 feet AGL, the controller repeats the clearance for left hand orbit, the flaps are extended to position 1. 13 seconds later the thrust levers are placed into the TO/GA detent, the aircraft turns to the left and climbs to 2000 feet, then positions for a visual approach to runway 19 with ILS support and in the end landed safely.
Unbelievable, thats all i can say really. 3 experienced crew that can't recognise a stall, A380 wingtip thumping a tail at JFK on a high speed taxi, a 747 that went off the side in Montreal i think and now this.......Do they still have vino with their meals? Pass the bog roll.....
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BOAC, agreed, maybe they should have sought help in these pages on the subject of descent planning!
Even the phrase "ENERGY MANAGEMENT" doesn't seem to feature in the plethora of FCOMs, OMs and all the other books we're supposed to consult in our attempts to arrive at the T/D point with just the right amount of energy as specified by the manufacturer, training depts, management and others.
It's not rocket science to realise that a tube full of pink quivering people, luggage, freight, fuel and its own structure weight (sorry, mass!) hurtling along at altitude and speed needs to be carefully controlled and managed to efficiently dissipate this energy until touchdown?
Yet the supposedly EASA supervised company for whom I operate has seen fit to remove the "clean" descent tables from the 'Performance Inflight' section of the QRH, see thread querying this.
Luckily I'm a G O F who has worked out his own figures and compensation factors for winds/weights etc and though my trackmiles to impact figure regularly equals the FMC computed figure to within 1%, @ ToD, said FMC regularly deviates from what I'm happy with later in the descent. By which time I have neither the capacity nor interest to attempt to persuade the FMC to "join me", so level change or V/S is regularly used to solve the problem.
At least every 5000' feet in the descent, and sometimes more often, I am comparing my estimate of trackmiles with the computation of height above T/D, IAS+weight compensation and instantaneous W/V and adjusting these to cope with ATC variations
Not surprisingly advice on descent planning is a regular query in this forum, presumably from newbies and those who are confused by the many and varied solutions offered, including by their training staff.
As rushed approaches stiil feature regularly in Airline Safety comics, the problem will not go away til it is grasped and discussed and thrashed out with some EASY method(s) promulgated by the training organisations.
Maybe we should not concentrate too heavily on the culture within AF and look to our own TRTOs who seem to have let this fundamental principle of airframe management slip through the net at best, or have ignored it at worst, so we end up with everyone doing their own thing.
As long as the FDM program demonstrates the rushed approach is still out there as a significant proportion of all approaches, then this sort of story will repeat, and maybe with more tragic results?
Even the phrase "ENERGY MANAGEMENT" doesn't seem to feature in the plethora of FCOMs, OMs and all the other books we're supposed to consult in our attempts to arrive at the T/D point with just the right amount of energy as specified by the manufacturer, training depts, management and others.
It's not rocket science to realise that a tube full of pink quivering people, luggage, freight, fuel and its own structure weight (sorry, mass!) hurtling along at altitude and speed needs to be carefully controlled and managed to efficiently dissipate this energy until touchdown?
Yet the supposedly EASA supervised company for whom I operate has seen fit to remove the "clean" descent tables from the 'Performance Inflight' section of the QRH, see thread querying this.
Luckily I'm a G O F who has worked out his own figures and compensation factors for winds/weights etc and though my trackmiles to impact figure regularly equals the FMC computed figure to within 1%, @ ToD, said FMC regularly deviates from what I'm happy with later in the descent. By which time I have neither the capacity nor interest to attempt to persuade the FMC to "join me", so level change or V/S is regularly used to solve the problem.
At least every 5000' feet in the descent, and sometimes more often, I am comparing my estimate of trackmiles with the computation of height above T/D, IAS+weight compensation and instantaneous W/V and adjusting these to cope with ATC variations
Not surprisingly advice on descent planning is a regular query in this forum, presumably from newbies and those who are confused by the many and varied solutions offered, including by their training staff.
As rushed approaches stiil feature regularly in Airline Safety comics, the problem will not go away til it is grasped and discussed and thrashed out with some EASY method(s) promulgated by the training organisations.
Maybe we should not concentrate too heavily on the culture within AF and look to our own TRTOs who seem to have let this fundamental principle of airframe management slip through the net at best, or have ignored it at worst, so we end up with everyone doing their own thing.
As long as the FDM program demonstrates the rushed approach is still out there as a significant proportion of all approaches, then this sort of story will repeat, and maybe with more tragic results?
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As a non-pilot, I may be talking out of my khyber*...but surely,in these times of high fuel-costs, they should have throttled-back miles before and then "coasted" down, using all that expensively -bought energy , rather than "dump" it via speedbrakes, Gear-drag etc (presupposing it worked and they didn't need to burn even more on a go-around) still an expensive and inefficient way to get down.
look on the bright side....better than too low and slow!
* Khyber Pass... = .Ass
look on the bright side....better than too low and slow!
* Khyber Pass... = .Ass
Originally Posted by Cockney Steve
As a non-pilot, I may be talking out of my khyber*...but surely,in these times of high fuel-costs, they should have throttled-back miles before and then "coasted" down
To quote from Avherald:
the controller advised that the active runway had just been switched to runway 19, which shortened the flying distance to land by about 20 nautical miles.
After the runway change, provided the cabin wasn't going to be caught before touchdown, there is no value in not using extra drag to get the thing down on the ground. Coasting it down = more flying time = more operating costs.
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Actually, 'Bloggs' and Steve, they were indeed 'easing' it down (in V/S) and were ALREADY high when the runway change happened.
Let's face it guys and girls, FL 207 33nm from touchdown at 276kts?? This is kindergarten stuff! As someone said, it is either gross arrogance or incompetence - or, of course, both. We (I) can 'forgive' forgetting he was still in V/s while re-briefing, but.......................................
Let's face it guys and girls, FL 207 33nm from touchdown at 276kts?? This is kindergarten stuff! As someone said, it is either gross arrogance or incompetence - or, of course, both. We (I) can 'forgive' forgetting he was still in V/s while re-briefing, but.......................................
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Air France = Garuda of Europe.
Oh...except that Garuda have now lifted their game and are actually a decent airline.
So sad.
(no offence meant to any Garuda employees past or present)
Oh...except that Garuda have now lifted their game and are actually a decent airline.
So sad.
(no offence meant to any Garuda employees past or present)
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I continue to be amazed by AF's antics ...
Having been around their cadets
; they're certainly a different breed to other student pilots!
What angers me is the continual 'bashing' of other airlines by AF which result in EASA placing them on the black list & AF picking up their routes ...
A case of the pot calling the kettle black I feel!!!
Having been around their cadets
; they're certainly a different breed to other student pilots!What angers me is the continual 'bashing' of other airlines by AF which result in EASA placing them on the black list & AF picking up their routes ...
A case of the pot calling the kettle black I feel!!!
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To be fair I have seen approaches like this in almost every airline. Some end up in the news, some do not.
What bothers me the most with Air France is the denial. You will soon see a public statement from their marketing department saying that the crew "were heroes that saved a potential dangerous situation by performing a go around in the last minute"
Look back at every accident they have had and the arrogance and the denial is stunning. THAT is why they are on my no fly list.
What bothers me the most with Air France is the denial. You will soon see a public statement from their marketing department saying that the crew "were heroes that saved a potential dangerous situation by performing a go around in the last minute"
Look back at every accident they have had and the arrogance and the denial is stunning. THAT is why they are on my no fly list.
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I imagine the flight back to CDG was rather quiet? I am guessing the return sector is why there was no relevant information on the CVR? If the CVR was actually 'erased' they should be sacked for that alone! The rest is extraordinary, but actively hindering a subsequent investigation would be culpable, and inexcusable.
I find it difficult to comprehend how anyone can fail to 'hear' "Whoop Whoop. Pull up!"
I find it difficult to comprehend how anyone can fail to 'hear' "Whoop Whoop. Pull up!"
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The whole system is biased by regulations, airlaw , unions etc.. Prerogatives and power granted to the commander of the flight, assume a captain sound in body and mind and not an insane totalitarian doing a one man show onboard.
It is also a cultural problem, in France the hierarchy and protocoles are very high and of a prime importance, and so is the case in the ex french colonies.
The british system is totally different where safety is paramount and the reporting policy was introduced at the very early stage of aviation. A cabin crew , f/o could report a captain if he something wrong was done , which is not the case in France and less in Air France where captain god would always be right , or any report against him would disappear...
It has to be changed from the management side . It' s not even a training related issue , if your management accepts you being unskilled you are still the best pilot as you speak french and hold a french passport.
Sad to say but Airlines do more politics than aviation
UAE identified this cultural problem and chose to adopt the british system and look at the results Emirates, Qatar, Etihad are succesful airlines .
It's not a matter of being assertive , or well trained or whatever . Any contradiction from the first officer side could have bad consequences and turned against him by the management. And NOBODY will support you in the whole management.
As a first officer in the french system you are by Default wrong.
I am not british but these are true words.
It is also a cultural problem, in France the hierarchy and protocoles are very high and of a prime importance, and so is the case in the ex french colonies.
The british system is totally different where safety is paramount and the reporting policy was introduced at the very early stage of aviation. A cabin crew , f/o could report a captain if he something wrong was done , which is not the case in France and less in Air France where captain god would always be right , or any report against him would disappear...
It has to be changed from the management side . It' s not even a training related issue , if your management accepts you being unskilled you are still the best pilot as you speak french and hold a french passport.
Sad to say but Airlines do more politics than aviation
UAE identified this cultural problem and chose to adopt the british system and look at the results Emirates, Qatar, Etihad are succesful airlines .
It's not a matter of being assertive , or well trained or whatever . Any contradiction from the first officer side could have bad consequences and turned against him by the management. And NOBODY will support you in the whole management.
As a first officer in the french system you are by Default wrong.
I am not british but these are true words.
Last edited by Citation2; 16th Jun 2013 at 13:52.
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Air France flight deck culture
Private Jet.......Do they still have vino with their meals? Pass the bog
roll.....
roll.....
Egalite, fraternite et liberte.................there's your answer !