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Incident at Heathrow

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Incident at Heathrow

Old 26th May 2013, 10:28
  #401 (permalink)  
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Barbara Harrison was the young lady's name. (I unfortunately witnessed the tragic event that April close up whilst I was working at British Eagle)
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Old 26th May 2013, 10:31
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Sorry Dave but deployment of reversers is not dependant on engines running, at least not on a/c I have operated.
Isn't there a minimum N2 (50%, I believe), below which the A319/A320/A321 ECU logic will inhibit reverser deployment?
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Old 26th May 2013, 10:33
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Jane Harrison

Barbara Jane Harrison - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 26th May 2013, 10:35
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eagle and 707 we

as mentioned in my previous post re 707 WE retuning to land on 05,
eagle Brit had the manston diversion
on a foam runway when the MLG got stuck in an awkward place....

here is a pic
http://britisheagle.net/pictures/G-ANCG%20crash%202.jpg
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Old 26th May 2013, 10:40
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Leadsled

I'm with NoD here. There wasn't a dire emergency. The wing wasn't burning through, for example, or a double engine failure a la Sully. There was some urgency to get the aircraft on the ground but there's no point rushing into an approach at an unfamiliar field to stuff it up. At one of our flight safety days we discussed an incident (no names, no pack drill etc) where an airborne return was rushed with inappropriate/nonexistent briefing with the end result that they ended up high/fast and a go-around. Do it once, do it right.

Last edited by Megaton; 26th May 2013 at 10:55.
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Old 26th May 2013, 10:43
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With the benefit of hindsight,and sitting over a cup of coffee..

"Captain, Sally here,,the pax seem a bit distraught, as they say they can see the inside of at least one engine"

" Bugger, seems at least one cowl is flapping around, I remember a fatal Danair incident where the stabiliser was hit by part of detached fuselage."

"MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY" request vectors for immediate return and landing!"

"Lets reduce speed now,and make a minimum speed approach to reduce likelihood of cowls exiting airframe,and get on the ground as soon as possible, where we will be given tea n biscuits, and congratulated for being heroes, whilst just doing our job...anything to add or suggest Smithers?"

"No Nigel..that's all clear...just,...oh nothing Nigel"

"Come on Smithers, out with it, it may be vital"

"We'll, may I suggest we don't log on to PPRuNe for a few days!"

And I suggest,..more or less,...that's what they may have done..

P.s. PAN PAN,PAN PAN,PAN PAN if you like..but I reckon it had potential to suddenly turn critical!

Last edited by Yaw String; 26th May 2013 at 11:25.
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Old 26th May 2013, 10:46
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Leadsled - post #400

Folks,
That report is well worth a read, pre- CRM --- and never forget the stewardess who lost he life looking after her passengers.
Tootle pip!!
I see that 40KTSOFFOG has posted the link to the article on BJH over at Wikipedia. There is also an article on the accident itself.

BOAC Flight 712 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 26th May 2013, 11:04
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deployment of thrust reversers with engine shut down

I think we could only test TRs when the engine was not running by connecting muscle air or hyd power externally.
The aircraft would have had to have at least one engine operating to successfully stay airborne and maneuver the way it did
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Old 26th May 2013, 11:23
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FADEC logic prevents reverser deployment with the engine shut down.
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Old 26th May 2013, 11:57
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ba maint

True, if you pay peanuts,you get monkeys!!
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Old 26th May 2013, 12:08
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FADEC logic prevents reverser deployment with the engine shut down.
Thanks for the confirmation, makes sense.
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Old 26th May 2013, 12:26
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To any non commercial jet pilots on here; an in-flight problem or failure can take a while to work through. It is not just a case of wheeling it round and landing in the nearest field. On has to go through the checklists for the failure of course, in this case perhaps at least two separate engine related problems. Then we have to secure other systems, for example alternative electrical power generation (start the APU), and decide which air conditioning packs to use (because they might have been contaminated), and hydraulics. Then we have to decide where to land. With most failures, we need to work out what landing distance will be required for the particular failure - which might for example be causing stopping issues (for example no reversers) - and this would be a very good reason NOT to go to Luton for example. The aircraft may be overweight for normal landing, in which case with no fuel jettison system available, we might need to burn the fuel off, or decide to land overweight - again another set of considerations, and longer runway needed. If the emergency is not life threatening, (it wasn't), one then has time to consider what engineering will be available, where on the airport the aircraft will be able to go once landed, and how the passengers are going to be looked after once the aircraft has landed. In most cases, weather permitting one's home-base that was departed from a few mins ago will be the best bet, (and it is familiar to the pilots). In addition, one needs to speak with the cabin crew so they know what is going on and what to expect - in this case an evacuation after landing using the slides. And finally speak to the passengers and reassure them what has happened and what is going to happen. All the while flying the aircraft and liaising with ATC. For some complex failures with bad weather around, all this can take 45 minutes to complete - I know, because I've done it.

All those who say they can't believe the aircraft flew over London to land have obviously never had to do this sort of thing for real or even in a SIM. Modern aircraft with engine problems do not fall out of the sky - indeed they are certificated not to.

What ever the causes for this, the crew and ATC did a textbook job, and all deserve our congratulations.

Last edited by Uplinker; 26th May 2013 at 12:30.
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Old 26th May 2013, 13:27
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FAILURE HANDLING

Well said Uplinker. I know, I was there......
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Old 26th May 2013, 13:29
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Uplinker.
I can think of several occurances where in 45 mins all would have gone down the pan including the afore mentioned BOAC 707.
In my last company we briefed for an emergency return before we took to the skies.
Nigel..
.yes they parked with respect to the surface wind...glad you mentioned that - perhaps you should also mention how your company discovered the importance of the manoeuvre when others had been following a similar procedure for a decade or more...
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Old 26th May 2013, 13:34
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I respect your experience but suggest that in a scenario where bits of the aircraft have fallen off, whatever the procedures you have been trained to perform, getting back on the ground, flying over the least populated areas, might be a good idea.

Presumably the captain disagrees with your view that the emergency was not life threatening or he wouldn't have put the passenges through the chance on injury, with a slide evacuation.
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Old 26th May 2013, 13:45
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Grapevine says the fire chief recommended the evacuation and no catastrophic situation was evident in the cockpit or cabin. Evacs don't always happen immediately.
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Old 26th May 2013, 13:46
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Quentic - can you explain, exactly, how you avoid populated areas in the south of England in a jet flying at several miles a minute... perhaps you could give us definition of "least populated" - last question - do you have a CPL?
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Old 26th May 2013, 13:51
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Evacuation

Quote: "Presumably the captain disagrees with your view that the emergency was not life threatening or he wouldn't have put the passenges through the chance on injury, with a slide evacuation".


An emergency evacuation is carried out if there is any evidence of fire or catastrophic damage. This would normally be initiated by the flight crew, but may be triggered by the cabin crew if they consider it to be necessary and no command is heard from the flight deck - with, of course, due consideration for which side or part of the aircraft is affected. Cabin crew are trained to check outside the door for evidence of fire before opening it.

Last edited by FullTanks; 26th May 2013 at 13:54. Reason: Insertion of quote
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Old 26th May 2013, 14:05
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Originally Posted by blind pew View Post
Uplinker.
I can think of several occurances where in 45 mins all would have gone down the pan including the afore mentioned BOAC 707.
And equally with flight 712 you could argue that if they had flown the SID & concentrated on following the briefing, with better CRM they'd have extinguished the engine fire & returned for a more controlled landing, saving 5 lives & the aircraft.

Or you could say that if there'd been a similar engine fire on the Oslo flight, the loss of the cowls would have left the crew with no way of extinguishing it & this incident would have ended in disaster.

In any particular incident, we can speculate retrospectively from the comfort of an armchair that disaster could have been averted if only procedures had/had not been followed (delete as appropriate for your chosen incident), but, statistically speaking, there's more likely to be a successful outcome if the PIC follows the briefing and stays in the loop than if they throw away the book.

That said, there will always be situations where acting instinctively and in contradiction with the briefing is the only way to save the day (Cpt Sully being one obvious example).

Recognising the difference & making the correct decision, in seconds whilst under extreme pressure, is perhaps the real test of an aircraft commander. In following procedure in this incident and not following it in the Hudsdon river ditching, the respective commanders made the right judgment call in each case.

In my book, they are both heroes.

Last edited by Sillert,V.I.; 26th May 2013 at 14:17.
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Old 26th May 2013, 14:32
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Originally Posted by Uplinker
If the emergency is not life threatening, (it wasn't)
Your first-hand information is appreciated but, for the record, can you (or anyone else, for that matter) confirm that the loss of these cowlings was not a life threatening situation. This will come as some relief to those piloting (or flying on) aircraft fitted with these engines in the future.
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