Incident at Heathrow
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Originally Posted by hec7or
the dispatcher noting the entire delay as "crew".
(Rumour alert.....!)
Interesting that during these events it usually seems to be the outboard cowl door that departs first, close to rotation (and hence normally found on the runway), followed soon afterwards by the inboard one, presumably as a result of the differing airflow characteristics either side of the nacelle.
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One of the greatest improvements lately in relation to flight(and medical) safety is the Non-Punitive Culture Philosophy. That is probably alsowhy both the FAA and EASA have included it in their texts.
Luckily a major part of the armchair-and-MS-FS foundedPPRUNE’ers are not involved with SMS, as we would probably have never been ableto evolve from the “Bad Apple” attitude that is so easy to apply. History showsthat it doesn’t solve any safety issues but heck… at least it provides the basic non-educatedpart of the population with a culprit to hang – preferably in public.
A lot of the self-appointed judges seem to forget that noneof us get up in the morning with the determination to screw up our jobs badly enoughto become part of the evening news.
We all want to return safely to our families. With that inmind we can start working on the systems and procedures needed to fix theproblem.
I once travelled a short leg with the nose gear extended.
The aircraft had non-standard, without my knowledge, beenmoved during the day to free the parking spot. For that, gear pins had beeninstalled. During external inspection I missed the fact that a pin was forgottenin the nose gear, partly perhaps because the “remove before flight” streamerwas worn and very short.
Standard decision could be to throw out the mechanic forforgetting the pin, and me for not performing my inspection thoroughly enough.
After analyzing a couple of similar incidents it was decidedthat gear pins and pitot covers needed a logbook entry. Since then it has neverhappened again.
Executing me, and all the next guys
up wouldn’t havesolved anything.
Luckily a major part of the armchair-and-MS-FS foundedPPRUNE’ers are not involved with SMS, as we would probably have never been ableto evolve from the “Bad Apple” attitude that is so easy to apply. History showsthat it doesn’t solve any safety issues but heck… at least it provides the basic non-educatedpart of the population with a culprit to hang – preferably in public.
A lot of the self-appointed judges seem to forget that noneof us get up in the morning with the determination to screw up our jobs badly enoughto become part of the evening news.
We all want to return safely to our families. With that inmind we can start working on the systems and procedures needed to fix theproblem.
I once travelled a short leg with the nose gear extended.
The aircraft had non-standard, without my knowledge, beenmoved during the day to free the parking spot. For that, gear pins had beeninstalled. During external inspection I missed the fact that a pin was forgottenin the nose gear, partly perhaps because the “remove before flight” streamerwas worn and very short.
Standard decision could be to throw out the mechanic forforgetting the pin, and me for not performing my inspection thoroughly enough.
After analyzing a couple of similar incidents it was decidedthat gear pins and pitot covers needed a logbook entry. Since then it has neverhappened again.
Executing me, and all the next guys
up wouldn’t havesolved anything.
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On the BA flight, it was said that the cowling hit the fuselage after becoming detached. On that video, you can also hear it hitting something...
Should we be expecting an AAIB interim report by Friday?
Should we be expecting an AAIB interim report by Friday?
Last edited by newfoundglory; 27th May 2013 at 11:31.
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hec7or
Other departments in airlines have their priorities and have to be paying attention to them, flight crew and maintenance staff have flight safety at the top of their list............... Defending flight safety is what you are paid to do and the occasional clash of priorities is inevitable when dealing with staff who don't have the big flight safety picture that is available to pilots and maintenance staff.
It is the way you deal with these incidents is what matters, it is your choice to turn the incident into an interdepartmental bun fight or try to educate them to be more proactive towards flight safety.......... I prefer the latter option.
It is the way you deal with these incidents is what matters, it is your choice to turn the incident into an interdepartmental bun fight or try to educate them to be more proactive towards flight safety.......... I prefer the latter option.
Last edited by A and C; 27th May 2013 at 12:06.
A final element that has not been mentioned yet is the chap who mans the headset during pushback. It used to be a Mech/Tech/Eng. It is now an appropriatly trained individual who, depending on the operator/ground handling agent, may have years or only hours of experience.
On of their tasks prior to push back is to do a walk round to ensure all doors and hatches are secure.
I'm wondering if all the hire and fire brigade will want their head on a plate too.
On of their tasks prior to push back is to do a walk round to ensure all doors and hatches are secure.
I'm wondering if all the hire and fire brigade will want their head on a plate too.
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As simple SLF I don't want anyone's head on a plate. All I want is to be sure when I board an A319 or A320 operated by BA or any other airline, these bits of the engines are not going to fly off and hit some vital piece of the tail, sending me and everyone else onboard into a quick dive to eternity. I used to have a boss who said the most important thing to do when any mistake was made, was not to apportion blame, but to ensure procedures were put in place to prevent such a mistake being repeated.
Couldn't a system be introduced whereby someone has to tick a box and sign their name beside it to say they've checked to ensure these bits of the engines are securely in position before the aircraft leaves its stand. This would ensure a manual check was made before each and every flight.
Couldn't a system be introduced whereby someone has to tick a box and sign their name beside it to say they've checked to ensure these bits of the engines are securely in position before the aircraft leaves its stand. This would ensure a manual check was made before each and every flight.
Should we be expecting an AAIB interim report by Friday?
This
Air Accidents Investigation: Deployment to Heathrow 24/05/13
is likely to be all we see until the investigation is complete.
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On the BA flight, it was said that the cowling hit the fuselage after becoming detached
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Aircraft Technical Log
frequentflyer2, Quote:- "Couldn't a system be introduced whereby someone has to tick a box and sign their name beside it to say they've checked to ensure these bits of the engines are securely in position before the aircraft leaves its stand. This would ensure a manual check was made before each and every flight."
Such a system is already in place and is more robust than a tick in the box, as mentioned by diginagain. However, I have never seen the system in use for engine cowlings, but it could work like this:-
A defect is entered in the Aircraft Technical Log to the effect that the engine cowlings have been opened.
When the cowlings have been closed and checked secure a statement to that effect is entered into the rectification part of the Aircraft Technical Log. The engineer or inspector responsible signs for the rectification , along with his/her licence or approval number and a new Certificate of Release is signed.
This is pretty much how defects are managed - varies a bit from one Operator to another.
It does require the maintenance staff to retrieve the Aircraft Technical Log from the cockpit or the line office to make this entry and as we have read and I have witnessed, they are usually pressed for time.
It is just a thought, though.
Such a system is already in place and is more robust than a tick in the box, as mentioned by diginagain. However, I have never seen the system in use for engine cowlings, but it could work like this:-
A defect is entered in the Aircraft Technical Log to the effect that the engine cowlings have been opened.
When the cowlings have been closed and checked secure a statement to that effect is entered into the rectification part of the Aircraft Technical Log. The engineer or inspector responsible signs for the rectification , along with his/her licence or approval number and a new Certificate of Release is signed.
This is pretty much how defects are managed - varies a bit from one Operator to another.
It does require the maintenance staff to retrieve the Aircraft Technical Log from the cockpit or the line office to make this entry and as we have read and I have witnessed, they are usually pressed for time.
It is just a thought, though.
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the AMM will stipulate at the beginning of the task, open cowls IAW.... and at the end of the task it would be something like close cowls iaw AMM.... Therefore when the task is signed for in the tech log iaw AMM.... the closing and securing of the cowls is covered.
It would be rare to have a statement in the log to say fan cowls opened, please close.
interesting article especially page 16 on.....closing cowls!
It would be rare to have a statement in the log to say fan cowls opened, please close.
interesting article especially page 16 on.....closing cowls!
I'd happily inconvenience the Queen, the Prime Minister, the President of the USA, or face the wrath of Naomi Campbell, rather than compromise the safety of the dustman in seat 48C.
That's my job! Others have their jobs, and their responsibilities.
That's my job! Others have their jobs, and their responsibilities.
In a nutshell, that's what gets people home in one piece.
It would be very unusual for the AAIB to issue either an Initial or Interim Report other than in the case of a fatal accident (for example the Bond Super Puma) or a complex investigation (such as BAW38).
Perhaps somebody should send an E-mail to the AAIB asking for a prelim summary before their next rostered flight.
the AMM will stipulate at the beginning of the task, open cowls IAW.... and at the end of the task it would be something like close cowls iaw AMM....
So, log books (or other records) need to be used to track all out of configuration changes. And there needs to be a process wherein all such changes are accounted for before the aircraft is released from maintenance.
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GreekIslandLover
What a load of rubbish so any pilots flying on a
can you tell us which airlines they are, would have gone straight in with out trying to save the aircraft, the mind boggles with some of the posts here 
I dread to think what could have happened if it had been another airline run on a shoestring budget. So yes, the crew DO deserve praise for that happening no matter what the investigation finds.
shoestring budget
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Horses for courses.
Spannersatcx, surely this rather depends on why the cowlings were opened in the first place. If it was for a maintenance task, I agree with what you say.
As a F/E I could enter a defect into the Aircraft Technical Log for anything about which I was unhappy e.g. No.1 engine cowlings open. It is then up to you, the licenced engineer to clear the defect.
You could do the same.
Many (minor) defects are cleared without reference to the AMM.
As a F/E I could enter a defect into the Aircraft Technical Log for anything about which I was unhappy e.g. No.1 engine cowlings open. It is then up to you, the licenced engineer to clear the defect.
You could do the same.
Many (minor) defects are cleared without reference to the AMM.