Incident at Heathrow
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but do we really know, WITH ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY, from a reliable source that the crew actually shut down ANY of the engines or did they land with both engines running sans cowlings?
But likely due:
- Pax statements R Eng "loud bang" / flames etc sometime into flight
- Smoke from accessories area on R Eng (upper right?) side
- Flt Crew parked aircraft offset to R
A question from a humble pilot who has never flown a heavy (FI on SEP)
How long does it take to do the pilot preflight, or rather how much time is available,and how much of the aircraft is visible/accessible without ladders etc?
Leaving aside type specific aspects, just a general idea for a two, three or four engine heavy.
And what typically would you focus on? The "gotchas" ?
Thank you for your informed replies.
How long does it take to do the pilot preflight, or rather how much time is available,and how much of the aircraft is visible/accessible without ladders etc?
Leaving aside type specific aspects, just a general idea for a two, three or four engine heavy.
And what typically would you focus on? The "gotchas" ?
Thank you for your informed replies.
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5 mins on a small twin (A319) 10 mins on a big quad (B747). Everything you need to see is visible from the ground except the upper surfaces of the wings and stabiliser. Nobody has a ladder on a walk round.
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AAIB 2012 report
Airbus A320-231 London Gatwick 20 January 2000 AAIB Bulletin: 7/2000 FACTOR: N/A Synopsis Accident No.1 engine cowling debris left on runway after take off. Aircraft diverted to Stansted and landed safely on full emergency. SAFETY RECOMMENDATION – 2000-026 It is recommended that the DGAC mandate aircraft modification aimed at appreciably reducing the likelihood of A320 fan cowl doors inadvertently remaining unlatched after maintenance. It is considered that, while measures to exhot maintenance personnel to ensure that doors are latched and to improve the conspicuity of unfastened latches may assist, they are unlikely to be fully effective and modification aimed at providing obvious indication of unlatched doors is required. Response Recommendation treated in ARS71.0014 for A319/320/321. IAE engines: A modification aiming at improving the visibility of an unlatched fan cowl door has been mandated on May 2nd 2001 by CN 2001-106(b). A second modification aiming at preventing that unlatched cowl doors be closed has been mandated on September 5th 2001 by la CN 2001-381. CFM engines: DGAC considers that for these engines no modification is to be mandated as the visibility if unlatched fan cowl doors is sufficient. Airbus will netherless put forward a modification aiming at improving the visibility of an unlatched fan cowl door. Its implementation will take place on a voluntary basis. Status - Accepted - closed SAFETY RECOMMENDATION – 2000-027 It is recommended that, until measures to satisfy the intent of Recommendation No 2000-026 are incorporated, the DGAC and Airbus Industrie recommend A319, A320, A321 and/or A330 aircraft maintenance organisations to record the unlatching and latching of fan cowl doors and to specify a duplicate inspection to confirm latching. Response Actions taken for the treatment of recommendation 2000-026 allow closing this recommendation. We may nevertheless stress the fact that, via OIT 999.0105/00 Airbus reminded the operators on July 13th 2000 that the following procedures shall be followed: a) check the closure of fan cowl doors for both engines b) check the adjustment of latch engagement tensions Status - Accepted - closed
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I just wonder why they continued to climb on the BPK SID when they lost the cowlings right after takeoff
I've operated out of Northolt many times. The CPT 4Y departure that we use steps from 3,000 to 4,000 then 5,000ft while flying North then North West from runway 25. This SID cuts straight across the path of the BA flight. If he hadn't climbed he might have had to deal with a TCAS in addition to everything else. Just because one aircraft has an emergency doesn't mean all the others disappear. It takes time to move them out of the way. He made a good call to stay with the clearance. That's what ATC would expect so they would vector other traffic on that basis. He couldn't know that as it transpired there were no departures from EGWU at that time.
ILS27LEFT, v interesting tks for posting.
Piper.Classique, It's a final backup; a quick walkround to see that nothing is hanging off, that a tyre doesn't look 'a bit odd' nor does anything else, there are no obvious dents, it just looks normal.
One I will never forget is departing Frankfurt when a young ground engineer noticed a shadow on a windmilling fan and climbed into the cowl and stopped the rotation. Three or four blades were damaged by tyre debris from a previous burst and this had not been noticed. Regrettably, whilst the damage was just within limits, the vibration levels were not and, because the whole thing was now recorded, I had to refuse the aircraft. IMO it was OK to fly but because it was just outside limits it was a no no.
Piper.Classique, It's a final backup; a quick walkround to see that nothing is hanging off, that a tyre doesn't look 'a bit odd' nor does anything else, there are no obvious dents, it just looks normal.
One I will never forget is departing Frankfurt when a young ground engineer noticed a shadow on a windmilling fan and climbed into the cowl and stopped the rotation. Three or four blades were damaged by tyre debris from a previous burst and this had not been noticed. Regrettably, whilst the damage was just within limits, the vibration levels were not and, because the whole thing was now recorded, I had to refuse the aircraft. IMO it was OK to fly but because it was just outside limits it was a no no.
do we really know, WITH ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY, from a reliable source that the crew actually shut down ANY of the engines or did they land with both engines running sans cowlings?
But if an engine was shut down, we known it wasn't No1 (or if it was, it was restarted before the landing, which is a tad unlikely). How do we know? Because we have video evidence of the deployment of No1 thrust reverser during the landing rollout.
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Why not choose STN? You've got problems with potentially both engines and you're downwind at your familiar homebase. You can't just drop into an unfamiliar base without getting charts, plates, performance and briefings. On the other hand, an approach into LHR is a non-event for BA airbus pilots.
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Regrettably, whilst the damage was just within limits, the vibration levels were not and, because the whole thing was now recorded, I had to refuse the aircraft. IMO it was OK to fly but because it was just outside limits it was a no no.
Vibration levels not within limits. Right decision Basil. No need for regrets.
Well done the young ground engineer.
If a glance at the gap underside shows the cowls to be unlatched, despite the levers being in locked position, and insertion of fingers and tugging would confirm swinging, unlocked state, then surely to save the bending over and peering in poor light, an indented grip one-third-way-up the cowling exterior would allow for a quick tug by any or all concerned on final check? 
Just an idea, please rip apart as necessary.
Just an idea, please rip apart as necessary.
Last edited by jolihokistix; 26th May 2013 at 03:58.
Jolihokistix.
One could always flick open the oil service access panel and grab a hold there.
One could always flick open the oil service access panel and grab a hold there.
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Rffs response
Regarding the heathrow airbus incident on Friday , the Rffs resources would have been exhausted very quickly with crews dealing not only with a full evacuation , but also because of the possible engine fire and also the problems surrounding returning a/c which are generally overweight landings which can cause hot brakes on landing . From experience of the full evacuation of a virgin a340 at gatwick last year the minimum requirement of firefighters at the bottom of each chute is a minimum of 1 with a preference for 2 when dealing with multiple pax exiting under emergency evac conditions
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Engine operation without cowlings
The gas turbine engine will happily run with no cowlings fitted. Regular occurrence when ground running for leaks etc. However there is no fire protection in this config as the cowlings form part of the air tight cavity for the retardant to be ejected around the engine. Both left and right cowls were not fully latched (for whatever reason) and when the right hand cowl came off it punctured something, possibly a fluid pipe on the side of the engine this resulted in that fire.Its possible the fire warning system was not triggered because, again the cowlings play a major role in ensuring the fire wires around the engine quickly pick up any abnormal sudden temperature rise
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A friend of mine pointed out that in another transport sector it was made mandatory to install door sensors and change proceedures after they departed with open doors....he was thinking of the Herald of Free Enterprise accident.
Please let us know which airline you fly for, or hopefully none 
We can then steer well clear. At the airline in question today, which I might even fly for, we tend, maybe rather unusually, to brief for an approach. Such a brief requires preparation, interaction and check of understanding. Not just select it in the box and watch the aircraft fly it 
We can then steer well clear. At the airline in question today, which I might even fly for, we tend, maybe rather unusually, to brief for an approach. Such a brief requires preparation, interaction and check of understanding. Not just select it in the box and watch the aircraft fly it
Come down off your high horse, the poster who suggested what he would do in a dire emergency was entirely reasonable in his comments. If time was critical, I would do exactly as he suggested ---- and I have a lot of P1 on FMCS equipped aircraft --- in an airline with an excellent safety record --- for longer than BA/BEA/BOAC has existed
Indeed, you might look into the incident history of your company,( if you are really a Nigel) you will find several examples (that I know of, in one the Captain was an old mate of mine) where all the long winded procedures had to be truncated (a technical term for "chucked out the window") because of the nature of the emergency.
Last edited by LeadSled; 26th May 2013 at 08:42.
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Sorry Dave but deployment of reversers is not dependant on engines running, at least not on a/c I have operated. Indeed, deployment of both reversers is the normal action on landing so could have been simply a motor response or perhaps to avoid the yaw induced if only one is deployed on touchdown.
in 1968 was BOAC 707-465 G-ARWE (EX EAGLE BTW) had an engine fire after t/o and returned immediately to LAP on now long gone runway 05
That report is well worth a read, pre- CRM --- and never forget the stewardess who lost he life looking after her passengers.