Lionair plane down in Bali.
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Because they were never taught it, their Instructors never taught it, and so on. If it's really quiet and all you can hear is wind, it's unlikely the thing's going to go up. Forgot something? Oh yeah... TOO late.
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A witness on the ground observing the arrival of the aircraft from the terminal building of Denpasar Airport said, that he could see the aircraft descend towards the aerodrome at a normal rate of descent, but only realised something had gone wrong with the approach when the aircraft hit the waters instead of touching down on the runway. There was no rain or other obstruction of visibility around.
Looking more and more like bufoonery!
Looking more and more like bufoonery!
Talking to people around here in Bali. the picture #4 on the AvHerald site , mentioned earlier gives a good clue of what everyone here think happened.
The whole accident is also apparently caught on an airport surveillance video camera.
Lion air top management is treating the Capt as a Hero and are looking to get him an award from Boeing. Some others say the publication of the CVR might alter those plans slightly . We'll see.
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Lion Management been reported as making crew exceed FDT's due to:
Cant get enough pilots to crew all the new Aircraft coming in.
Cant get enough pilots to crew all the new Aircraft coming in.
There are lots of experienced FO's and Capt's out there, but you have to PAY them to come to Indonesia, and you would have to give up at least part of the PTF scheme, which is a huge money-maker for the airline. Nothing is going to change because of this crash. At least the CC's are getting really good at evac's at Lion and the other Indonesian carriers.
Anyone want to give me the over/under on how many incidents (rwy excurisons, etc.)/accidents we have there this year??
Good point, I'd be down to Indo in a flash to fly their planes for 15k USD after tax if they wanted me. Good surf, closer to home. Would be great.But why would they do that if they can get guys/ gals to do it for peanuts and there is no consequence for stacking a jet?
Good point, I'd be down to Indo in a flash to fly their planes for 15k USD after tax if they wanted me. Good surf, closer to home. Would be great.But why would they do that if they can get guys/ gals to do it for peanuts and there is no consequence for stacking a jet?
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It's not really Lion Air's fault, see puff piece here:
Invisible enemy: why flying in South-East Asia can be a pilot's nightmare
Some journos will swallow anything
Invisible enemy: why flying in South-East Asia can be a pilot's nightmare
Some journos will swallow anything
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Some journos will swallow anything
But what I have heard myself from reliable sources in DPS , fit that story.
Lion air of course pushes to highlight the microburst/wind shear aspect while trying to avoid discussing the actual procedures followed and actions by the Crew and the Airline. Standard post crisis Communications Technique.
The Indonesian NTSC has asked the Australian ATSB for assistance in seeking weather reports from Australian flight crews flying in to Denpasar at the time of the accident. This is from the ATSB wesbite.
Investigation: AE-2013-076 - Assistance to Indonesian NTSC - Collision with terrain, PK-LKS, B737-800, Denpasar, 13 April 2013
If I recall correctly, there was a Virgin Australia 738 which performed a go-around during the time of the accident. I'm not sure whether the Virgin Aust aircraft was ahead or behind the Lion Air that ditched.
Investigation: AE-2013-076 - Assistance to Indonesian NTSC - Collision with terrain, PK-LKS, B737-800, Denpasar, 13 April 2013
If I recall correctly, there was a Virgin Australia 738 which performed a go-around during the time of the accident. I'm not sure whether the Virgin Aust aircraft was ahead or behind the Lion Air that ditched.
I had lunch with a DJ mate after the crash. He said a DJ 737 was behind the Lion and landed after the crash. So the crew involved should be able to shed light on any weather they saw at the time?
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I was told the aircraft that landed just prior Lion air landed normally and did not report any significant weather/problems to ATC during the approach..
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That must be the most bizarre clearance you can get.."cleared to land disregard the aircraft crashed ahead" ?? Normally the airport is closed as soon as there is a crash as ATC and the fire service have something else on their mind, let alone that the reason the first aircraft crashed might still exist... 
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According to the groundtrack on flightradar24, a 737 successfully landed halfway between Coventry and Birmingham airport a week or so ago.
Maybe something to do with the interface between flightradar24 and google maps, but it does indicate you can't always take things as they are seen.
I also thought that it was NOT radar data, but ADS-B transponder data.
I think it is more of a hobby interest site than something to be relied on in times of problems.
Maybe something to do with the interface between flightradar24 and google maps, but it does indicate you can't always take things as they are seen.
I also thought that it was NOT radar data, but ADS-B transponder data.
I think it is more of a hobby interest site than something to be relied on in times of problems.
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Pilot Injured in West Java Plane Accident ...
A pilot was injured when a Cessna aircraft skidded off the runway at Nusawiru Cijulang Airport in the West Java district of Ciamis on Friday morning.
The incident took place at around 8 a.m., when pilot Rudi Herwin Cahyadi attempted to take off in the Cessna 172 SP from the small airport in the subdistrict of Cijulang during a training session.
The plane suddenly lost its balance and skidded off the runway and over a dike, before flipping over.
“There were no casualties in the incident, but the pilot sustained an injury on his head and has been referred to Banjar Hospital,” West Java Police spokesman Sr. Comr. Martinus Sitompul told the Jakarta Globe.
Martinus said the front and back parts of the single-engine, four-seater plane were damaged, and so were its wings.
It’s not clear yet as to what had caused the incident, nor if the plane carried other passengers.
The incident took place less than a month after a Lion Air plane carrying 101 passengers failed to land at Bali’s Ngurah Rai Airport and instead crashed into the sea.
Dozens of passengers were injured in the incident that took place on April 13
The incident took place at around 8 a.m., when pilot Rudi Herwin Cahyadi attempted to take off in the Cessna 172 SP from the small airport in the subdistrict of Cijulang during a training session.
The plane suddenly lost its balance and skidded off the runway and over a dike, before flipping over.
“There were no casualties in the incident, but the pilot sustained an injury on his head and has been referred to Banjar Hospital,” West Java Police spokesman Sr. Comr. Martinus Sitompul told the Jakarta Globe.
Martinus said the front and back parts of the single-engine, four-seater plane were damaged, and so were its wings.
It’s not clear yet as to what had caused the incident, nor if the plane carried other passengers.
The incident took place less than a month after a Lion Air plane carrying 101 passengers failed to land at Bali’s Ngurah Rai Airport and instead crashed into the sea.
Dozens of passengers were injured in the incident that took place on April 13
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Short of Pilots, Government Turns To Civil Servants
The Transportation Ministry is looking within its own ranks to source talent to overcome the shortage of pilots in the country’s fast-expanding aviation industry.
The effort to test whether the nation’s civil servants would be put to better use at 30,000 feet comes as the government grapples with the twin problems of a glut of bureaucrats — about 4.6 million — and an acute shortage of pilots and pilot instructors.
A large banner reading, “The Transportation Ministry offers civil servants in the ministry opportunities to be trained as pilots,” is on display in front of the ministry’s human resources department in Gambir, Central Jakarta.
Bambang S. Ervan, a spokesman for the ministry, confirmed the message was correct, saying that it was the first time the idea had been tried.
“[Those who enlist] will be trained at one of our flying schools and, on completion, will obtain the most basic pilot license,” Bambang said.
To obtain an entry-level license, called a private pilot license, trainees must complete 60 flying hours and more than 300 ground-training hours. After graduation, they can fly non-commercial aircraft.
The ministry has two flying schools, one in Curug, Banten, and a second in Banyuwangi, East Java, producing 150 pilot graduates a year between them, Bambang said.
The ministry’s program is scheduled to operate within 18 months.
Bambang said the program was made to fill the gap in Indonesia’s airline industry, which includes 16 scheduled commercial airline operators.
“The aim is to train flight instructors rather than to produce commercial pilots,” Bambang said.
The Transportation Ministry launched the program because it is not allowed to recruit more civil servants under the ongoing recruitment moratorium that has been imposed across most national government agencies as a cost-saving measure.
“There are not enough flight instructors in our schools right now, and we cannot recruit any more people. So the viable option is to train our staff,” Bambang said.
“It is possible for the graduates to become commercial pilots depending on their aptitude and the requirements from the respective airlines. But their first duty is to be instructors,” Bambang said.
Aviation analyst Dudi Sudibyo said the government’s program was commendable.
“Anyone can be a pilot, even civil servants, because it depends on whether they can pass all the related aptitude tests,” he added. “I think it is quite innovative for the government to take this approach in addressing [the issue of pilot shortages],” Dudi said.
The rapid expansion of Indonesia’s aviation sector has led to the pilot shortage. According to Dudi, Indonesia needs to produce at least 400 new pilots every year.
Bambang said the recruitment be strictly supervised. “Of course we will not recruit any random person. They will undergo the same rigorous training and procedures as any other pilot trainees,” he said.
Indonesia’s civil service is rife with ill-discipline, including reports of bureaucrats clocking off during working hours and failing drug tests. The country’s aviation industry, meanwhile, faces longstanding security concerns.
The crash of a Lion Air plane into the sea off Bali’s Ngurah Rai airport last month damaged already-weak public confidence in the sector. Investigations into the cause of the crash are ongoing.
Bambang said security was the Transportation Ministry’s chief concern. “With or without this program, security is our number one priority,” he said.
Dudi said a similar approach was taken by professional pilots. “Every pilot wants to perform their job safely. Security is their first, second and third priority,” he said.
But he added that Indonesia’s flying schools lag behind their regional counterparts in regard to facilities and the quality of the curriculum.
“For example, our schools still use planes with an analog controller, while most of the cockpits in commercial planes are now digital,” he said.
“It means that a graduate from an Indonesian school will need further training to fly a commercial plane.”
National airline Garuda Indonesia is among those carriers seeking to stave off staffing shortages.
“Garuda Indonesia had recruited 10 flight instructors to expedite our training program and as an anticipation of delays in our training timetable due to the lack of instructors,” the airline said in its annual report.
Garuda employs 842 pilots and copilots as of 2012, and has a further 239 candidates in its training program.
The archipelago’s 16 scheduled airline operators employ around 8,000 pilots and copilots, while approximately 600 foreign pilots have been drafted in, according to data from the Transportation Ministry.
Efforts by airlines to recruit foreign pilots have been hampered by objections among local pilots to differences in pay.
The effort to test whether the nation’s civil servants would be put to better use at 30,000 feet comes as the government grapples with the twin problems of a glut of bureaucrats — about 4.6 million — and an acute shortage of pilots and pilot instructors.
A large banner reading, “The Transportation Ministry offers civil servants in the ministry opportunities to be trained as pilots,” is on display in front of the ministry’s human resources department in Gambir, Central Jakarta.
Bambang S. Ervan, a spokesman for the ministry, confirmed the message was correct, saying that it was the first time the idea had been tried.
“[Those who enlist] will be trained at one of our flying schools and, on completion, will obtain the most basic pilot license,” Bambang said.
To obtain an entry-level license, called a private pilot license, trainees must complete 60 flying hours and more than 300 ground-training hours. After graduation, they can fly non-commercial aircraft.
The ministry has two flying schools, one in Curug, Banten, and a second in Banyuwangi, East Java, producing 150 pilot graduates a year between them, Bambang said.
The ministry’s program is scheduled to operate within 18 months.
Bambang said the program was made to fill the gap in Indonesia’s airline industry, which includes 16 scheduled commercial airline operators.
“The aim is to train flight instructors rather than to produce commercial pilots,” Bambang said.
The Transportation Ministry launched the program because it is not allowed to recruit more civil servants under the ongoing recruitment moratorium that has been imposed across most national government agencies as a cost-saving measure.
“There are not enough flight instructors in our schools right now, and we cannot recruit any more people. So the viable option is to train our staff,” Bambang said.
“It is possible for the graduates to become commercial pilots depending on their aptitude and the requirements from the respective airlines. But their first duty is to be instructors,” Bambang said.
Aviation analyst Dudi Sudibyo said the government’s program was commendable.
“Anyone can be a pilot, even civil servants, because it depends on whether they can pass all the related aptitude tests,” he added. “I think it is quite innovative for the government to take this approach in addressing [the issue of pilot shortages],” Dudi said.
The rapid expansion of Indonesia’s aviation sector has led to the pilot shortage. According to Dudi, Indonesia needs to produce at least 400 new pilots every year.
Bambang said the recruitment be strictly supervised. “Of course we will not recruit any random person. They will undergo the same rigorous training and procedures as any other pilot trainees,” he said.
Indonesia’s civil service is rife with ill-discipline, including reports of bureaucrats clocking off during working hours and failing drug tests. The country’s aviation industry, meanwhile, faces longstanding security concerns.
The crash of a Lion Air plane into the sea off Bali’s Ngurah Rai airport last month damaged already-weak public confidence in the sector. Investigations into the cause of the crash are ongoing.
Bambang said security was the Transportation Ministry’s chief concern. “With or without this program, security is our number one priority,” he said.
Dudi said a similar approach was taken by professional pilots. “Every pilot wants to perform their job safely. Security is their first, second and third priority,” he said.
But he added that Indonesia’s flying schools lag behind their regional counterparts in regard to facilities and the quality of the curriculum.
“For example, our schools still use planes with an analog controller, while most of the cockpits in commercial planes are now digital,” he said.
“It means that a graduate from an Indonesian school will need further training to fly a commercial plane.”
National airline Garuda Indonesia is among those carriers seeking to stave off staffing shortages.
“Garuda Indonesia had recruited 10 flight instructors to expedite our training program and as an anticipation of delays in our training timetable due to the lack of instructors,” the airline said in its annual report.
Garuda employs 842 pilots and copilots as of 2012, and has a further 239 candidates in its training program.
The archipelago’s 16 scheduled airline operators employ around 8,000 pilots and copilots, while approximately 600 foreign pilots have been drafted in, according to data from the Transportation Ministry.
Efforts by airlines to recruit foreign pilots have been hampered by objections among local pilots to differences in pay.
Last edited by jetjockey696; 4th May 2013 at 13:08.
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Old news... just incase you missed it...
Thirty Indonesian Pilots Grounded for Flying Overtime 25/01/2013
Thirty Indonesian pilots have been temporarily banned from flying for exceeding the maximum working limit in the air.
“Exceeding flying hours causes fatigue and affects flight safety,” said Bambang Ervan, spokesman of the Transportation Ministry, as quoted by Tempo.com on Thursday.
He refused to give details of the airlines.
Each pilot’s grounding term would be adjusted according to the length of their overtime.
The ministry limited the flying hours of a pilot to only nine hours in a day, 30 hours in a week, 110 hours in a month and 1,050 hours in a year.
For cabin crew, their maximum limit — which includes flying hours — is 14 hours in a day, with at least nine hours rest before the next flight.
Bobby Mamahit, head of the human resources development at the Transportation Ministry, said the lack of pilots in Indonesia was one of the underlying reasons behind pilots working overtime.
Bobby told Tempo.com that Indonesian airlines needed 4,000 additional pilots, adding that the country needed on average between 700 and 800 pilots per year.
Alvin Lie, an aviation observer, recently told Tempo.com that it was airline management who forced pilots to work overtime.
“If they [pilots] refused overtime, the next month they would not be given flying hours [by the airline], so their income would drop to only a basic salary,” he said.
But Bambang said that the pilots should be able to reject the request of the airlines to work overtime, rather than face sanctions from the government as the airlines would not be sanctioned.
“Pilots are the ones who suffer the loss if they fly overtime,” Bambang said.
Thirty Indonesian Pilots Grounded for Flying Overtime 25/01/2013
Thirty Indonesian pilots have been temporarily banned from flying for exceeding the maximum working limit in the air.
“Exceeding flying hours causes fatigue and affects flight safety,” said Bambang Ervan, spokesman of the Transportation Ministry, as quoted by Tempo.com on Thursday.
He refused to give details of the airlines.
Each pilot’s grounding term would be adjusted according to the length of their overtime.
The ministry limited the flying hours of a pilot to only nine hours in a day, 30 hours in a week, 110 hours in a month and 1,050 hours in a year.
For cabin crew, their maximum limit — which includes flying hours — is 14 hours in a day, with at least nine hours rest before the next flight.
Bobby Mamahit, head of the human resources development at the Transportation Ministry, said the lack of pilots in Indonesia was one of the underlying reasons behind pilots working overtime.
Bobby told Tempo.com that Indonesian airlines needed 4,000 additional pilots, adding that the country needed on average between 700 and 800 pilots per year.
Alvin Lie, an aviation observer, recently told Tempo.com that it was airline management who forced pilots to work overtime.
“If they [pilots] refused overtime, the next month they would not be given flying hours [by the airline], so their income would drop to only a basic salary,” he said.
But Bambang said that the pilots should be able to reject the request of the airlines to work overtime, rather than face sanctions from the government as the airlines would not be sanctioned.
“Pilots are the ones who suffer the loss if they fly overtime,” Bambang said.
Excellent! Problem solved. Rather than increase salaries and ticket prices ( by $1 per passenger per sector) to attract competent and professional aircrew and build the nations's aviation sector into something to be proud of, they are going to train civil servants to be instructors in C172's.
With these civil servants who have never had to make high pressure life or death safety decisions in their lives training the airline pilots what could possibly go wrong? I am now confident that the industry will go from strength to strength and reverse it's woeful safety record.
Good work Bangbang and co.
With these civil servants who have never had to make high pressure life or death safety decisions in their lives training the airline pilots what could possibly go wrong? I am now confident that the industry will go from strength to strength and reverse it's woeful safety record.
Good work Bangbang and co.
Last edited by framer; 4th May 2013 at 22:24.