Toxic Cabin Air/Aerotoxic Syndrome
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: earth
Posts: 1,341
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just stating that oil or hydraulic fumes used to be very common in older aircraft W/O a huge reaction. Being a freight dog it was quite normal, if bad enough for us to encounter fumes that were more than a simple discomfort greater than a crew member asking to pull his finger we usually changed the ACM socks as they would accumulate the contaminants. Modern aircraft (have not dealt with this problem for a decade or so) are much cleaner.
The worst case I experienced was on the ground where the ground/flight crew failed to turn off the environmentals during deice. We pressurized and dumped the cabin 3 times before everyone was comfortable in taking the flight. The second was a flight of several hundred pigs that died in flight, I had to was all my clothes 3 times after taking the aircraft after it's fourth leg. Then the Hajj flights, Hell we were expecting the smell and were all used to it after about 3 days.
Point being, fumes and discomfort in smell are a human factor. This thread makes me feel old. Not stating that anyone here is spoiled in comfort, just that the perception of what is acceptable has changed greatly from the above reactions over the years.
The worst case I experienced was on the ground where the ground/flight crew failed to turn off the environmentals during deice. We pressurized and dumped the cabin 3 times before everyone was comfortable in taking the flight. The second was a flight of several hundred pigs that died in flight, I had to was all my clothes 3 times after taking the aircraft after it's fourth leg. Then the Hajj flights, Hell we were expecting the smell and were all used to it after about 3 days.
Point being, fumes and discomfort in smell are a human factor. This thread makes me feel old. Not stating that anyone here is spoiled in comfort, just that the perception of what is acceptable has changed greatly from the above reactions over the years.
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Manchester
Age: 45
Posts: 615
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote:
For that compound (organophosphates) I know if no electrochemical or collective sensor that would work.
I wouldn't give up just yet.
I can think of 3 potential approaches for detecting engine oil fumes in the cabin and cockpit. (Some development required)
Organophosphate poisoning results from exposure to organophosphates which cause the inhibition of acetylcholinesterase (AChE). Develop an appropriate biosensor system on a chip to detect AChE inhibition. This technology is in its infancy however.
Determine a characteristic absorption spectrum for the Organophosphate bonds and build a narrow frequency spectrometer looking for absorption in a light beam transmitted through an air sample. The P=O double bond coupled with the P-O-H bonds might be sufficient to avoid false alarms and yet give rapid detection.
Add an inactive but distict and easily detected (using present technology) chemical to engine oil. This chemical would be an analog for all the breakdown components of engine oil including the problematic organophosphates.
It is amazing to me that the MSDS for jet engine oil does not reflect the breakdown product hazards we now know to be present. For example :
http://qclubricants.com/msds/ROYCO500.pdf
Sorry to be a pedant but that pic is not an organophosphate. You can't do a spec on it as you don't know the organic groups stucture. I could in the lab on a big IR machine, but I wouldn't expect a pilot to interpet it.
For that compound (organophosphates) I know if no electrochemical or collective sensor that would work.
I wouldn't give up just yet.
I can think of 3 potential approaches for detecting engine oil fumes in the cabin and cockpit. (Some development required)
Organophosphate poisoning results from exposure to organophosphates which cause the inhibition of acetylcholinesterase (AChE). Develop an appropriate biosensor system on a chip to detect AChE inhibition. This technology is in its infancy however.
Determine a characteristic absorption spectrum for the Organophosphate bonds and build a narrow frequency spectrometer looking for absorption in a light beam transmitted through an air sample. The P=O double bond coupled with the P-O-H bonds might be sufficient to avoid false alarms and yet give rapid detection.
Add an inactive but distict and easily detected (using present technology) chemical to engine oil. This chemical would be an analog for all the breakdown components of engine oil including the problematic organophosphates.
It is amazing to me that the MSDS for jet engine oil does not reflect the breakdown product hazards we now know to be present. For example :
http://qclubricants.com/msds/ROYCO500.pdf
Sorry to be a pedant but that pic is not an organophosphate. You can't do a spec on it as you don't know the organic groups stucture. I could in the lab on a big IR machine, but I wouldn't expect a pilot to interpet it.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: U.K.
Age: 68
Posts: 380
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ex cargo clown,
Why the difficulty of detecting poison air in a confined space?
Carbon Monoxide could be monitored in front line RAF Hawker Typhoon fighter aircraft in the middle of WW2. Most light aircraft have CO detectors nowadays.
Surely a basic CCTV system would allow the pilots to see VISIBLE oil fumes in passenger cabins and to turn off bleed air systems pumping unfiltered toxic air into the cockpit and cabin?
At the moment, crew depend entirely upon their sense of smell and vision - all those in favour of Toxic Air Detectors in 'modern' jet aircraft - say: "Aye".
All against say: "Arrrgghhhh"
Why the difficulty of detecting poison air in a confined space?
Carbon Monoxide could be monitored in front line RAF Hawker Typhoon fighter aircraft in the middle of WW2. Most light aircraft have CO detectors nowadays.
Surely a basic CCTV system would allow the pilots to see VISIBLE oil fumes in passenger cabins and to turn off bleed air systems pumping unfiltered toxic air into the cockpit and cabin?
At the moment, crew depend entirely upon their sense of smell and vision - all those in favour of Toxic Air Detectors in 'modern' jet aircraft - say: "Aye".
All against say: "Arrrgghhhh"
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Steyning, West Sussex, UK
Age: 73
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Film - A Dark Reflection: About the issue of TCP
Last year (2013), a drama-documentary film has been made about the TCP issue. Its called "A Dark Reflection" and is due to have its premiere in the UK (Horsham, West Sussex) in April 2014. More information on the film here at [URL="http://http://www.adarkreflection.com"]http://http://www.adarkreflection.com[/URL
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Sweden
Age: 47
Posts: 443
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is ongoing research, at least I found this interesting doctorate's degree paper (uh, words?) from Norway.
https://www.duo.uio.no/handle/10852/12729
You can dl the whole paper from that page if you want to. If it does not work, for some reason, just PM me, I have a copy. It is in the public domain (at least in Scandinavia) so don't worry about copyright.
https://www.duo.uio.no/handle/10852/12729
You can dl the whole paper from that page if you want to. If it does not work, for some reason, just PM me, I have a copy. It is in the public domain (at least in Scandinavia) so don't worry about copyright.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@ Dream Buster
Your dream may just have been busted.
Airborne toxic exposure comes in 4 forms:
Gas, vapor, mist and fume.
The last two may very well be visible and the first two rarely so.
Sometimes an odor may be present, but not always.
Often a reasonable cost sensing device is just not available and they are they are usually not specific and may be pressure sensitive.
I could name at least 10 compounds that would set off a traditional carbon monoxide detector and yet pose no hazard, never mind a detector that is designed to detect more complex compounds.
If the compound is a fume or a mist an inexpensive collection device and a future lab analysis will usually work.
If the compound is a gas or a vapor real-time measurement MAY be an option, but in most cases they are cross sensitive to other compounds and often to the point that such interference could render them practically useless.
There are hopes though, nanotechnology sensors may become commercially available at a reasonable price in this decade.
Your dream may just have been busted.
Airborne toxic exposure comes in 4 forms:
Gas, vapor, mist and fume.
The last two may very well be visible and the first two rarely so.
Sometimes an odor may be present, but not always.
Often a reasonable cost sensing device is just not available and they are they are usually not specific and may be pressure sensitive.
I could name at least 10 compounds that would set off a traditional carbon monoxide detector and yet pose no hazard, never mind a detector that is designed to detect more complex compounds.
If the compound is a fume or a mist an inexpensive collection device and a future lab analysis will usually work.
If the compound is a gas or a vapor real-time measurement MAY be an option, but in most cases they are cross sensitive to other compounds and often to the point that such interference could render them practically useless.
There are hopes though, nanotechnology sensors may become commercially available at a reasonable price in this decade.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: U.K.
Age: 68
Posts: 380
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mr DK
Not dreaming, just living in the real world.
aerotracer - Airsense Analytics GmbH
It ain't rocket science.
Not dreaming, just living in the real world.
aerotracer - Airsense Analytics GmbH
It ain't rocket science.
Last edited by Dream Buster; 5th Feb 2014 at 07:14. Reason: Change from German to English web site
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not dreaming, just living in the real world.
That instrument you linked to is a "broadband" detector and is not specific in any.
It will not give you any indication of the actualcompound that it is detecting, just that is detecting something.
That "something" may include cologne
I mentioned options like that much earlier in thethread using PID.
This device will NOT detect any fumes. None, zero,nada.
Instruments like these require frequentcalibration or verification of accuracy (AKA bump test).
The test is easy to do, but require a source of referencegas which is usually supplied in compressed form.
The instrument after calibration should beaccurate in detecting the reference gas, but correction factors must be appliedor other gases and to apply a correction factor you must know the exactcompound being detected and if not known reading can be erroneously high or low.
In the real world it would help to know a little about atmospheric monitoring and sensing technologies and the limitations.
It will not give you any indication of the actualcompound that it is detecting, just that is detecting something.
That "something" may include cologne
I mentioned options like that much earlier in thethread using PID.
This device will NOT detect any fumes. None, zero,nada.
Instruments like these require frequentcalibration or verification of accuracy (AKA bump test).
The test is easy to do, but require a source of referencegas which is usually supplied in compressed form.
The instrument after calibration should beaccurate in detecting the reference gas, but correction factors must be appliedor other gases and to apply a correction factor you must know the exactcompound being detected and if not known reading can be erroneously high or low.
In the real world it would help to know a little about atmospheric monitoring and sensing technologies and the limitations.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Apparently the fumes were so bad the crew had to wear their masks some of the flight.
"The captain also had to repeatedly ask his passengers to stop smoking marijuana because they were creating so much smoke that it actually began to seep into the pressurized cockpit. The co-pilots were forced to wear oxygen masks in order to prevent themselves from inhaling the smoke and getting high, which would have severely impaired their ability to safely maneuver the aircraft. If the pilots accidentally inhaled the smoke and failed drug tests after the flight, they could have risked losing their licenses."
Justin Bieber And Crew Reportedly Smoke Lots Of Pot, Harass Attendant On Private Flight
"The captain also had to repeatedly ask his passengers to stop smoking marijuana because they were creating so much smoke that it actually began to seep into the pressurized cockpit. The co-pilots were forced to wear oxygen masks in order to prevent themselves from inhaling the smoke and getting high, which would have severely impaired their ability to safely maneuver the aircraft. If the pilots accidentally inhaled the smoke and failed drug tests after the flight, they could have risked losing their licenses."
Justin Bieber And Crew Reportedly Smoke Lots Of Pot, Harass Attendant On Private Flight
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: U.K.
Age: 68
Posts: 380
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A DARK REFLECTION
Here is a teaser for a soon to be completed movie on contaminated air - no detection equipment required, just watch it and ask yourself:
Why would so many professional people put in so much effort, if they didn't absolutely know that there is a serious problem that needs - fixing.
Enjoy.
A Dark Reflection - Film - Home
Why would so many professional people put in so much effort, if they didn't absolutely know that there is a serious problem that needs - fixing.
Enjoy.
A Dark Reflection - Film - Home
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: California
Age: 54
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Collect and analyze
Why not use a dozen bags on the flight to get snapshots.
Place and seal them in the ventilation airflow at optimal time.
Afterwards the bags can be analysed e.g. mass spec or other detector at a lab to get the full chemical analysis.For a second test they might need to use a solvent to rinse particles attached to the container lining. Very low cost and requires no real-time equipment.
Place and seal them in the ventilation airflow at optimal time.
Afterwards the bags can be analysed e.g. mass spec or other detector at a lab to get the full chemical analysis.For a second test they might need to use a solvent to rinse particles attached to the container lining. Very low cost and requires no real-time equipment.
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Sweden
Age: 47
Posts: 443
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
xcitation
This was my intention.
So, if any pilot wants to participate, just holler and I'll hook you up with some nice cotton swabs of different preparations. It'll be a hoot!
I'm betting some activated charcoal will do a nice job of finding stuff too. And, the agricultural industry has tons of equipment to analyse organophosphates rather cheaply, it's just a matter of getting the samples that might be a problem.
I'll see if I could get some chem students for a project.
Did any of you check out that paper I linked to?
This was my intention.
So, if any pilot wants to participate, just holler and I'll hook you up with some nice cotton swabs of different preparations. It'll be a hoot!
I'm betting some activated charcoal will do a nice job of finding stuff too. And, the agricultural industry has tons of equipment to analyse organophosphates rather cheaply, it's just a matter of getting the samples that might be a problem.
I'll see if I could get some chem students for a project.
Did any of you check out that paper I linked to?
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: UK
Age: 55
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A319,320,321 oil fumes in cabin
Engine oils should be topped up within 2 hours of shutdown. after 2 hours the oil tends to hide so over servicing happens on start this excess oil pumps out of the breather system.
During APU shutdown one should allow the FADEC to shutdown before turning the batteries off this ensures that the air intake door is fully closed thus preventing oil bleed back into the intake,ground crew should wipe any oil from the APU intake door and surrounds.
Switching batteries off too soon will also give an indication on the APU oil sight glass of low oil quantity do not service with oil unless you are sure the air inlet door is fully closed,over hastie pilots not waiting for FADEC shutdown are causing this aerotoxic problem.
During APU shutdown one should allow the FADEC to shutdown before turning the batteries off this ensures that the air intake door is fully closed thus preventing oil bleed back into the intake,ground crew should wipe any oil from the APU intake door and surrounds.
Switching batteries off too soon will also give an indication on the APU oil sight glass of low oil quantity do not service with oil unless you are sure the air inlet door is fully closed,over hastie pilots not waiting for FADEC shutdown are causing this aerotoxic problem.
bably a good idea - but quote? Who actually says so?
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fumes
There are evacuated containers that can be used for sampling.It is simply a matter of opening and closing a tap.Maybe worth carrying on subject aircraft??
Used one from Boeing on a 1-11 once upon a time!!
Used one from Boeing on a 1-11 once upon a time!!
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: U.K.
Age: 68
Posts: 380
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gases and vapours
MrDK
Is that better?
However the term "fumes" has been used for many years with respect to actual
(or perceived) unusual gases or vapours in aircraft.
The reason might found in the UK dictionary definition of "fumes":
Amounts of gas or vapour with a strong smell or dangerous to inhale.
Ref Oxford English Dictionary.
Is that better?
However the term "fumes" has been used for many years with respect to actual
(or perceived) unusual gases or vapours in aircraft.
The reason might found in the UK dictionary definition of "fumes":
Amounts of gas or vapour with a strong smell or dangerous to inhale.
Ref Oxford English Dictionary.
Media Coverage
Aerotoxic Syndrome was featured on BBC 5 Live Breakfast this morning. Richard Westgate's lawyer Frank Cannon was interviewed and Professor David Coggart (Coggan?) commented on toxin levels and hazards.
The segment is available via the 'Listen Again' facility, at
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03vcj9g
Scroll forward to 26 minutes. The segment lasts for approx. 4 minutes. Today's programme will be deleted after 7 days.
If you're outside the UK and cannot access the segment, try a web proxy.
The interviewer stated that the BBC TV programme 'Inside Out' will address this issue tonight, at 7:30. This will apply only to the North-West area. Better than nothing, I suppose.
Aerotoxic Syndrome was featured on BBC 5 Live Breakfast this morning. Richard Westgate's lawyer Frank Cannon was interviewed and Professor David Coggart (Coggan?) commented on toxin levels and hazards.
The segment is available via the 'Listen Again' facility, at
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03vcj9g
Scroll forward to 26 minutes. The segment lasts for approx. 4 minutes. Today's programme will be deleted after 7 days.
If you're outside the UK and cannot access the segment, try a web proxy.
The interviewer stated that the BBC TV programme 'Inside Out' will address this issue tonight, at 7:30. This will apply only to the North-West area. Better than nothing, I suppose.