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Toxic Cabin Air/Aerotoxic Syndrome

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Toxic Cabin Air/Aerotoxic Syndrome

Old 30th Dec 2013, 08:04
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I think we all can look back at some of the initial claims from Boeing on the 787, that they subsequantly toned down, about how the circ system on the 787 was so much better at removing toxic chemicals from the cabin, virtually acknowledging the issue.
They toned it down after reporters starting asking if they were going to retrofit their existing aircraft with the system.
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Old 30th Dec 2013, 10:41
  #142 (permalink)  
 
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I think we all can look back at some of the initial claims from Boeing on the 787, that they subsequantly toned down, about how the circ system on the 787 was so much better at removing toxic chemicals from the cabin, virtually acknowledging the issue.
They toned it down after reporters starting asking if they were going to retrofit their existing aircraft with the system.
Huh? You have a gripe with the 787?

This thread is about an airbus a319.
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Old 30th Dec 2013, 15:09
  #143 (permalink)  
 
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Avionics equipment failure is one of most likely sources of smoke/fumes on the flightdeck since the avionics bay is often located beneath the flightdeck floor (as in the A319/320). Any avionics ECAM should put you on alert for a subsequent smoke/fumes event....
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Old 30th Dec 2013, 15:44
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737jock, did you bother to read "underfire"'s post, or did you just see "787" and assume it was a criticism? It read as praise of the 787's system to me...

Underfire, not only is there a filtration system, but the use of electric compressors for cabin air smacks to me of a recognition of the issue while refusing to admit it.
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Old 30th Dec 2013, 20:01
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"Entire crew went hospital for tests".

Will we ever hear the results of what were hopefully comprehensive toxicology analysis and will the industry step up to the plate to address this long term issue?

I await with interest but not holding my breath...................................................... .
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Old 31st Dec 2013, 01:17
  #146 (permalink)  
 
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Fumes in A320 series are often down to oil in the hp air ducting. This can come from the engines, but the APU is often the source. When shutting down the APU, the operator should wait for the air intake flap to be fully closed before switching the batteries off. This occurs at about 7%N. If they are too quick, then the oil vent discharge can be sucked back into the intake leaving oil residue in the system.
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Old 31st Dec 2013, 05:06
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Combusted oil will contain benzene, and that's a known carcninogen. I could smell the fumes but I'm a chemist! Needs a tiny IR Spec machine in the cabin to sort this issue out
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Old 31st Dec 2013, 19:52
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The problem is the tricresylphosphate (sp?), known as TCP, which is used as an anti-wear additive in the engine and APU oil. When it gets into the bleed air, the TCP is cooked into organophosphates. I suffered a similar incident years ago, though it was the cabin, not the cockpit that was affected. The crew were sent to hospital for arterial blood sample testing, but they had no idea what to look for, and neither did any of us at the time. I described symptoms similar to CO2 poisoning, but explained that there was no way for CO2 to be responsible. However, rather than looking for something else that would cause these symptoms, the hospital looked only for CO2 levels, wasting our time entirely (and giving us pretty sore arms too). It seems that the NHS are equally as oblivious to the issue and equally unwilling to give any serious investigation into events as the aviation industry itself...
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Old 2nd Jan 2014, 17:33
  #149 (permalink)  
 
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From a technical standpoint, fumes and smoke are usually helpful aiding in troubleshooting. I would not assume faults on this aircraft are related or not. An overheated component or associated wiring is just about always the weakest link and easily fixed with confidence it is not likely to repeat. I could regurgitate serious faults on the same aircraft all day long. Nothing to gawk at here ladies and gentlemen.
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Old 2nd Jan 2014, 18:13
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If all 3 recorded incidents (referred to as accidents in the official reports apparently) involve the same aircraft, I would beg to differ. I shan't move along just yet
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Old 3rd Jan 2014, 14:44
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Not an accident an indecent requiring a SDR be filed. There is no information stated to suggest the source of the fault was the same. Fumes or smoke in the cockpit is much more common than most believe, the response by the airline to send the crew to the hospital is simply to prevent accusation of further liability at a later date. The manufacturer and CAA evaluate and collect SDR's and determine if there is enough of a trend to mandate further action. Of the thousands of heavy aircraft in the skies a few are bound to have a run of bad luck. No need to "flame" on the subject.
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Old 3rd Jan 2014, 15:08
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The aircraft involved is out and about today (just arrived in London from Cologne) so read into that what you will...
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Old 3rd Jan 2014, 19:33
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There is no information stated to suggest the source of the fault was the same
No, nor did we say there was. It is in fact because it is clearly stated (at least from what is quoted) that in all three cases the cause was not determined that the ? arose. No one's "flaming" by the way!
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Old 3rd Jan 2014, 19:48
  #154 (permalink)  
 
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What type of engine was this?
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Old 3rd Jan 2014, 20:37
  #155 (permalink)  
 
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IAE V2524-A5
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Old 3rd Jan 2014, 22:14
  #156 (permalink)  
 
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At the risk of upsetting 737JOCK by introducing another type, is this not similar to the spate of HS146 incidents relating to bleed air contamination?
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Old 12th Jan 2014, 20:30
  #157 (permalink)  
 
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WDR Germany are making another TV programme on Cabin Air Quality and are on the look out for German contributors - anonymity guaranteed:

DasErste.de - Monitor - "Ungefiltert eingeatmet" - die Story im Ersten
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Old 12th Jan 2014, 21:18
  #158 (permalink)  
 
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Cut and pasted from my posting on a similar thread last year. This issue won't go away but nor will the authorities/airlines do anything until a fatal accident forces their hands, IAW the "Tombstone Imperative".

146 Odours.
After 9 years on the Bae146 I am still allegedly fit now, but probably lucky so to be.


Not only did the 146 APU smell, the early production models would pump blue fumes into the rear of the cabin after startup and following pack initiation on1st start of the day. As the SLF would not be impressed we would start it early and clear the worst of visible fumes and odour before we would invite them aboard.

Also, certain airframes would provide an altimeter check consisting of a "sweaty socks" odour, for less than a minute, in the engine idle descent, at 8000 ft. Maybe it lasted longer but once a smell is in the nose it requires the nasal passages to be purged with fresh air before further detection.

Needless to say tech log entries produced neither positive nor useful rectification reports and never was a proper air sampling exercise carried out despite management being alerted via ASRs or 'ear-tugging'.

When I do pop my clogs I'll be happy for some bored pathologist to take various biopsies for research purposes and will even donate a bit of non-essential whilst still alive, if there is any program out there wishing to examine those who've definitely and repeatedly been exposed to these fumes for nearly a decade.

For the sake of our successors the CAA medical wallahs should display their inependence from industry pressures and using their vast medical database, with the permission of volunteers, a proper scientific & objective study could be performed.

If I have to submit to a breathalyser test before I board to operate, I expect to have a leeching done IMMEDIATELY and AUTOMATICALLY after landing following ANY fumes event!

But I can hear the beancounters arguing over who would pay for such a procedure, so in the meantime we're back to awaiting the "Tombstone Imperative"?

Ah, that's why I've got this posting name.....................

It's 18years since I flew the "5 APUs in close formation" and I kept a Class 1 til retirement late last year, and I appreciate I'm one of the lucky ones?!

Good luck in fighting this one!!!!!
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Old 17th Jan 2014, 13:57
  #159 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks Barking, that is very interesting.

I have just had an ASR rejected after a sweaty socks fume event on an A330, (because of "no evidence" - bloody cheek).

I too used to fly the dear old 146, and am also well acquainted with the distinctive smell, so I recognised it as soon as I smelt it.

I will pursue the point with my company.
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Old 17th Jan 2014, 17:17
  #160 (permalink)  
 
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BALPA 2005. How do they get away with it?

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