Toxic Cabin Air/Aerotoxic Syndrome
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: U.K.
Age: 68
Posts: 380
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: U.K.
Age: 68
Posts: 380
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Accident: Spirit A319 at Boston on Jul 17th 2015, fumes on board, captain died.
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Islas Baleares
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Fort Lauderdale
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Allied Pilots Association: FAA Makes Right Call on Toxic Fumes
FORT WORTH, Texas (April 6, 2018) – The Allied Pilots Association (APA) applauded the Federal Aviation Administration’s issuance of a Safety Alert for Operators (SAFO) regarding “Procedures for Addressing Odors, Smoke and/or Fumes in Flight,” citing the serious health and safety threat posed by toxic air in the cockpit and cabin of an airliner.
“We applaud the FAA for taking this significant step to mitigate the risk air crews and passengers face from toxic fumes,” said Captain Dan Carey, APA’s president. “A toxic fume event can result in immediate incapacitation and have a long-term adverse impact, and it can affect everyone on board.”
Academic research indicates that approximately 20,000 toxic fume events have occurred during the past 10 years — an average of five each day. A toxic fume event occurs when the air inside the aircraft becomes contaminated from engine bleed air.
The FAA’s recently released SAFO recommends that air carriers “review their company’s odor, smoke and/or fumes procedures to ensure they address benign odor events as well as toxic odor, smoke and/or fumes, in an expeditious manner to limit exposure of passengers and crews.”
APA has developed and submitted detailed recommendations to American Airlines concerning procedures for ensuring that crewmembers are properly trained and aware of the threat posed by toxic cockpit and cabin air. APA is now awaiting the company’s response.
“Given the seriousness of this threat, we are hopeful that the company responds promptly to our recommendations and moves forward in accordance with the FAA’s SAFO,” Carey said.
Founded in 1963, the Allied Pilots Association — the largest independent pilots union in the United States — is headquartered in Fort Worth, Texas. APA represents the 15,000 pilots of American Airlines, including several hundred pilots on full-time military leave of absence serving in the armed forces. The union’s website is AlliedPilots.org. American Airlines is the world’s largest passenger airline.
FORT WORTH, Texas (April 6, 2018) – The Allied Pilots Association (APA) applauded the Federal Aviation Administration’s issuance of a Safety Alert for Operators (SAFO) regarding “Procedures for Addressing Odors, Smoke and/or Fumes in Flight,” citing the serious health and safety threat posed by toxic air in the cockpit and cabin of an airliner.
“We applaud the FAA for taking this significant step to mitigate the risk air crews and passengers face from toxic fumes,” said Captain Dan Carey, APA’s president. “A toxic fume event can result in immediate incapacitation and have a long-term adverse impact, and it can affect everyone on board.”
Academic research indicates that approximately 20,000 toxic fume events have occurred during the past 10 years — an average of five each day. A toxic fume event occurs when the air inside the aircraft becomes contaminated from engine bleed air.
The FAA’s recently released SAFO recommends that air carriers “review their company’s odor, smoke and/or fumes procedures to ensure they address benign odor events as well as toxic odor, smoke and/or fumes, in an expeditious manner to limit exposure of passengers and crews.”
APA has developed and submitted detailed recommendations to American Airlines concerning procedures for ensuring that crewmembers are properly trained and aware of the threat posed by toxic cockpit and cabin air. APA is now awaiting the company’s response.
“Given the seriousness of this threat, we are hopeful that the company responds promptly to our recommendations and moves forward in accordance with the FAA’s SAFO,” Carey said.
Founded in 1963, the Allied Pilots Association — the largest independent pilots union in the United States — is headquartered in Fort Worth, Texas. APA represents the 15,000 pilots of American Airlines, including several hundred pilots on full-time military leave of absence serving in the armed forces. The union’s website is AlliedPilots.org. American Airlines is the world’s largest passenger airline.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: .
Posts: 309
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Probably the same "research" that the avherald quotes.
For those who have a genuine interest in understanding fume events from a scientific perspective, this speech by Richard Feynmann is well worth keeping in mind when reading much of the academic literature.
There's huge amounts of, as Trump would put it, "fake science" surrounding fume events. To have any hope of convincing aircraft manufacturers and operators that something needs to be done this fake science needs to be put back in its box and real science take the lead. I'm sure that Dream Buster won't like me saying this, but that's life. Profit-making companies aren't going to be convinced by a bunch of papers that have a worse level of scientific understanding than a 1st year undergraduate, we'll have to do far, far, better than that.
For those who have a genuine interest in understanding fume events from a scientific perspective, this speech by Richard Feynmann is well worth keeping in mind when reading much of the academic literature.
There's huge amounts of, as Trump would put it, "fake science" surrounding fume events. To have any hope of convincing aircraft manufacturers and operators that something needs to be done this fake science needs to be put back in its box and real science take the lead. I'm sure that Dream Buster won't like me saying this, but that's life. Profit-making companies aren't going to be convinced by a bunch of papers that have a worse level of scientific understanding than a 1st year undergraduate, we'll have to do far, far, better than that.
Oil toxicity
A good friend, a 757/767 captain lost his licence some years ago with a definite diagnosis , by the CAA docs. of OP poisoning. I also lost my licence sometime before that, when I, too, was a 75/76 captain and had been flying a RR powered 75 which was using a little more oil than usual in the left engine, the bleed from which feeds the pack used for the flight deck air conditioning. My problem, neurological , was identified but the source / cause of my slightly abnormal eeg, in the left temporal lobe was not ? OP, who knows, but I have my suspicion.
Now long retired I fly large model aircraft powered by gas turbine engines, into the fuel for which, I use JetA1, is mixed turbine oil at 5% and is burned as total loss. The exhaust has a distinctive odour. After OP awareness I have always handled the oils with great care and avoid exhaust fumes during ground running.
However, I was recently made aware of a turbine oil called Turbonycoil 600 which does NOT contain TCP, is approved for very many full-size engines by all three of the big manufacturers for a wide range of engines including the RB211, and is , I am told, the ONLY turbine oil used by the US Navy.
So why is this oil not being used more extensively in civil aviation, removing the OP problem at a stroke?
Now long retired I fly large model aircraft powered by gas turbine engines, into the fuel for which, I use JetA1, is mixed turbine oil at 5% and is burned as total loss. The exhaust has a distinctive odour. After OP awareness I have always handled the oils with great care and avoid exhaust fumes during ground running.
However, I was recently made aware of a turbine oil called Turbonycoil 600 which does NOT contain TCP, is approved for very many full-size engines by all three of the big manufacturers for a wide range of engines including the RB211, and is , I am told, the ONLY turbine oil used by the US Navy.
So why is this oil not being used more extensively in civil aviation, removing the OP problem at a stroke?
Last edited by RetiredBA/BY; 8th Apr 2018 at 10:28.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Southern Europe
Posts: 318
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm sorry to learn about your Medical condition.
What's the price of "Turbonycoil 600" vs Oil with TCP ?
Although "approved" by the big three manufacturers, Oil with TCP might allow a few hundreds more cycles than "Turbonycoil 600", which translates into big maintenance savings.
Money will always be driving force behind choosing between options.
(not the health and safety of crewmembers)
What's the price of "Turbonycoil 600" vs Oil with TCP ?
Although "approved" by the big three manufacturers, Oil with TCP might allow a few hundreds more cycles than "Turbonycoil 600", which translates into big maintenance savings.
Money will always be driving force behind choosing between options.
(not the health and safety of crewmembers)
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: At home
Age: 64
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I had a toxic air incident on an a 320 a month ago. Luckily it happened at the gate prior to departure. My flight attendants had had it happen before and were familiar with the smell. We ask the passengers to deplane, called maintenance and the aircraft was taken out of service.
Maintenance found the APU oil level greatly over-serviced and oil lying in the duct-work leading from the APU air plenum. There is a duct "dry out" procedure in the maintenance manual. It's a lengthy procedure. Run the APU and air-conditioning at high temp. The aircraft was out of service overnight. There was no push-back from the company.
Maintenance found the APU oil level greatly over-serviced and oil lying in the duct-work leading from the APU air plenum. There is a duct "dry out" procedure in the maintenance manual. It's a lengthy procedure. Run the APU and air-conditioning at high temp. The aircraft was out of service overnight. There was no push-back from the company.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Europe
Posts: 256
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What about high end, fully synthetic car engine oils?
According to this
https://www.motor-talk.de/forum/akti...hmentId=752940
just mineral oils, no additives, which I find almost suspicious. By the way, the English version (2013) is even less detailed than this 2017 German version.
According to this
https://www.motor-talk.de/forum/akti...hmentId=752940
just mineral oils, no additives, which I find almost suspicious. By the way, the English version (2013) is even less detailed than this 2017 German version.
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: DFFD Ouagadougou
Age: 62
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I fly a 727 and just recently we were deiced at Munchen (Munich). No problem during the flight but when we landed at base and started the APU, fumes came into the plane and made everyone's eyes burn.
Second point, there are still some airlines that insist on spraying the cabin during taxi when departing from certain countries. Surely the pesticide must have an effect on frequent travelers and crew.
Second point, there are still some airlines that insist on spraying the cabin during taxi when departing from certain countries. Surely the pesticide must have an effect on frequent travelers and crew.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: U.K.
Age: 68
Posts: 380
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Welcome aboard toxic airlines - documentary film.
Anyone interested in Nyco oil should watch this 2007 film about toxic cabin air and find out...
Documentaries
= No evidence.
Documentaries
= No evidence.
)I find it telling that no one is taking me up on the suggestion to go start sampling air in and around airports - lots of aircraft, burning lots of Jet A and oil (most jet engines use far more oil at/near idle since they depend on pressure differential to keep the oil where it belongs) in a confined space. Unless there is an oil leak or similar mechanical failure, the bleed air at 35k is almost certainly is less contaminated...
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: US
Posts: 2,205
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
tdracer - I saw a study that researched 'toxic' cabin air. Your hunch, or knowledge based leading question, is correct. Outside the airplane is much worse than the interior samples. The ramps and jet bridges had higher amounts than the cabin. You'd think rampers would be dropping like flies.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 152
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Forgive me if I have missed this point if already covered. It was a quick read.
I have a question as a lowly SLF.
Some time ago I read that it is advisable to aim the fresh air vent to blow straight down your face so that all breaths are of clean filtered germ free air rather than regular cabin air full of nasties, and the air flowing down your face keeps cabin air away.
The article also said that the on board filters are extremely efficient and getting air direct from the nozzle is best.
But: is it not the case that this freshly filtered air may be clean of germs etc but is still a mixture of fresh and bleed air? So the theory won't hold up.
I hope you can understand that. Not one of my best. Thanks.
I have a question as a lowly SLF.
Some time ago I read that it is advisable to aim the fresh air vent to blow straight down your face so that all breaths are of clean filtered germ free air rather than regular cabin air full of nasties, and the air flowing down your face keeps cabin air away.
The article also said that the on board filters are extremely efficient and getting air direct from the nozzle is best.
But: is it not the case that this freshly filtered air may be clean of germs etc but is still a mixture of fresh and bleed air? So the theory won't hold up.
I hope you can understand that. Not one of my best. Thanks.
Most modern aircraft ECS systems use a ~50/50 split of 'fresh' air from the engine bleeds and 'recycled' air. That air is mixed before it gets to your overhead vent, so in that sense it's all the same. The recycled air is run through a HEPA filter, which is extremely effective at filtering out germs/viruses and similar particulate contaminates - but would be ineffective for gaseous contaminates. Your technique of trying to breath only air from the overhead vent would help prevent you from catching a cold from the person sitting next you. But if the engine bleed air is somehow contaminated it wouldn't help significantly.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: .
Posts: 309
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One thing that surprised me from the study (not yet published, but under review now) was that smoke from aircraft tires was a strong contributor to local pollution and contained a whole array of nasty substances.