Helicopter Crash Central London

[BOAC]

We may not know his heading before striking the crane, but he headed due south after he hit it...

- and at some speed so I think 'holding' is spurious.

[ShyTorque]

Although they are available for helicopters, I'd be very surprised if one was fitted. Flying through London I suspect there would be many false positives - to such an extent a pilot may well turn it off anyway.

Many, if not most, modern corporate helicopters do have TCAS, or similar fitted. I'm not sure what you consider a "false positive". I can assure you that professional helicopter pilots flying in CAS do not turn it off, and certainly not over London.

[Nopax,thanx]

Not just TV commentators

We had an equally ridiculous comment on the local radio last night; the reporter was interviewing a chap from an aircraft operator and asked him;

"So you've flown in a helicopter; did it seem risky?"

[Pace]

Where on earth do they get these so called experts from and why give these idiots a platform to spout their rubbish?
We had the awful tragedy of the collision and sinking of the Marchioness with the awful loss of life that involved.
We have had tube disasters with equally bad loss of life yet aircraft???
I am in London today! Crisp and clear. Looking at the amount of construction going on around the river the sky is dotted by cranes towering way above these skyscrapers like Octopus tentacles waiting for their prey.
It was one of these almost invisible high level cranes which brought this Helicopter down lets not forget that. No Crane no incident!

[Dont Hang Up]

We may not know his heading before striking the crane, but he headed due south after he hit it...

Indeed the aircraft could suffer a significant deflection from its original track on collision with something that substantial.

30 degrees easily.
60 degrees possibly.
90 degrees? I suspect that it would disintegrate completely on collision rather than "bounce off" in that way.

[mixture]

No Crane no incident!

Every year, thousands of obstacles are listed in NOTAMs. How many of these bring down aircraft ?

Yes, the heli hit the crane..... but the real question is what lead the helicoper to occupy the same airspace as the crane in the first place.

With a pilot with as much experience as this one was purported to have, I would hope there is more to this story than meets the eye !

[Mick Stability]

My guess is that he was approaching on a SW heading, ie for Battersea since the wreckage is SW of the building. I'd put his incident heading within 30 deg of that track.

I also think that he might not have been in control. He strikes me as the sort of consumate aviation professional who would not deliberatley put himself below a safe altitude in IMC.

[Lemain]

It was one of these almost invisible high level cranes which brought this Helicopter down lets not forget that. No Crane no incident!

It's a valid pov and you're entitled to it. {joking} Should we try to bulldoze the Alps, Himalayas and the Andes to make it easier for us to route? Or put lights on top of them? {/joking} OK, I exaggerate to make the point and cranes aren't permanent but aircraft have to fly in and around cities with these clearance problems in mind. SSA. Around towns and cities we should regard air-routes to be a privilege, not an entitlement. Designated clear areas are in place and there is seldom a legitimate excuse for a nav error, imho, other than an error as a consequence of some other problem or mishap. The MkI eyeball is a poor navigator's tool. It's an incredibly valuable aid, not to be believed alone, but nowhere near as good as most avionic navaids.

The only system available today that's suitable and safe for poor viz descent and landing near to or in cities is ILS. If ILS isn't available for any reason, get out of the city or fly well above it. Flying in reduced viz near to a city demands greater skills, and greater instrumentation (ground and a/c).

Nearly all accidents are as a result of a chain of events, seldom just one thing even though one thing might be the trigger and be found as "The Cause of The Accident". Seldom is, though, is it?

What worries me is that rotary wing per se, or even GA as a group, will be restricted as a consequence. That would be very damaging to the industry and those who work in the industry, as well as the public at large who (though they don't realise it) benefit from the improved performance of industry able to move key people around quickly and safely.

While we wait for the report, and the inevitable kite-flying leaks, we should resist knee jerk responses. These a/c are safe. The pilots are safe. The present airports and heliports are safe. Accident and incident levels are very acceptably low. From all we've heard no changes are needed.

[Lemain]

I also think that he might not have been in control. He strikes me as the sort of consumate aviation professional who would not deliberatley put himself below a safe altitude in IMC.

That's my suspicion, unless the tributes are, understandably, exaggerated. Not 'being in control', of course, could include many things from medical, equipment to weather.

[ILS 119.5]

The pilot would certainly be flying svfr for entrance into class a airspace or vfr outside. TCAS has no relevance at all as it replies on other TCAS equipped aircraft for avoidance which a crane would not have. Earlier points have mentioned IFR/IMC VFR/VMC, let me clarify as a qualified aviation expert, IFR/VFR are the rules that the a/c is flying under, IMC/VMC are the conditions that the a/c is flying in. The reason why an a/c clan fly under IFR in VMC is easy, for example consider an a/c flying into LHR on a clear day in VMC as it is in class a airspace he must fly IFR. There are different rules for helicopters than fixed wing owing to the diffferencies between the flying characteristics. I won't talk about SVFR as it's a bag of worms really and after 25 years in the business can still cause long discussions. I haven't really had time to look closely into the incident but my first impressions are that the crane jib should have been lowered as it was not lit albeing the actual crane itself was. I would hope that the crane was not positioned in any way to encroach on any of the std helicopter routes. The 500' rule does not apply to an a/c taking off and landing. Hope this helps, Rgds ILS

[Lemain]

I haven't really had time to look closely into the incident but my first impressions are that the crane jib should have been lowered as it was not lit albeing the actual crane itself was. I would hope that the crane was not positioned in any way to encroach on any of the std helicopter routes. The 500' rule does not apply to an a/c taking off and landing. Hope this helps, Rgds ILS

So you're saying that the jib should have been lowered? We have it as a matter of public record that the crane operators overslept for the first (cough cough) time in twenty years so are we suggesting that the safety of GA fixed and rotary in this area depends on the crane operators?

[Speed of Sound]

I would hope that the crane was not positioned in any way to encroach on any of the std helicopter routes.

It matters not where the crane was positioned at close of business on Tuesday.

As has been said a number of times already, these jibs are designed to weathervane and as such, could feasibly move up to 180 degrees from its original position depending on windspeed, direction and time.

[Flap 5]

There's a lot of nonsense being talked about the crane. It's orientation and whether it was lit or not is frankly irrelevant. The pilot would have been SVFR which requires him to be clear of cloud and in sight of the surface. That means you stay over the river, avoiding buildings and bridges. I can only think that something distracted the pilot, like changing frequency, to cause him to lose his references. Single pilot operation can get very intense in bad weather, even for experienced pilots.

[ILS 119.5]

Weathervaning is not the issue, the issue is the height of the crane which, correct me if I'm wrong, which was notamed and also the top of it lit at night. To me the height of the jib should be notamed as the true height and lit from the top of the jib if it is to remain extended.
Regarding whether or not the crane driver slept in or not is irreverent as he/she would probably not have gone up to the cab due weather. I can see falling to sleep whilst being on duty a factor but not being late for work. Rgds.

[Ditter]

Weather vane.

These cranes aren't always unlocked(left to slew,weather vane).Even fixed jib(not rising/lowering,luffing)cranes are always left unlocked.It is down to the operator to decide.Mainly dependent on the weather and surroundings.This crane would slew over a public footpath.Not ideal unless in bad wind conditions.Any damage to the trolley,top of the crane.Would cause a catastrophic failure of the jib.As it is supported by the counterweights through the cable connected to the trolley.The jib alone weighs over 4 tons.And if you know about fall factors,you'll know the result.Had it been hit whilst locked and positioned over the site,it would not have landed on the highway.

[stuckgear]

spreadsheet of helicopter movements in london 2007 -2012

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...nTWxCaFE#gid=0

number of fatal incidents in that period ?

Edit to add: Rhetorical question above.

[cldrvr]

number of fatal incidents in that period ?

Zero, this was the first one.

[mfaff]

Top of building is 181m...(593ft)
NOTAM'd height was 770 ft =234m...

Difference is pretty much height of jib when raised and end of jib was (at least at some point recently) equiped with a working light.
Cab is broadly same height as TOB...

Height difference is about 16 floors of building so a just under a third higher.

[uksatcomuk]

The question was asked earlier in the thread , but AFAIK was never answered...do 109s carry flight data recorders?

Thanks

[uksatcomuk]

.....and a follow up to the above , anyone know what the local pressure setting was at the time ?

Thanks