Helicopter Crash Central London
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Earth
Posts: 3,663
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A strobe is visible in cloud remember visibility in in cloud varies from around 50 meters to 200 meters and sight of a strobe in such a situation would mean the pilot pulling instantly away.
If we call it 100knots, thats 50 metres per second .... not much time for an already disorientated and stressed out pilot to figure out what's going on and pull away in a safe manner.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Age: 69
Posts: 292
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Surely the safest thing to do in that context, particularly if you are in a helicopter is just to stop and put it down in the nearest safest spot...... isn't that one of the main benefits of a heli ?
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Earth
Posts: 3,663
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So which would have been the "nearest safe spot"?
Failing that.... a very, very,very slow descent onto one of the bridges ? (very much less than ideal, I know.... but better than meeting a crane in the mist !)
Oh, and there's also the Oval cricket ground !
Last edited by mixture; 18th Jan 2013 at 13:55.
More bang for your buck
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: land of the clanger
Age: 82
Posts: 3,512
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you're flying along a known helicopter route and you suddenly, in the clag, see a strobe in front of and slightly above you, wouldn't you're first reaction be "Christ it's another helicopter and dive?"
Last edited by green granite; 18th Jan 2013 at 13:58.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From an aviation life from the age of five, I don't remember anyone telling me about the time they avoided an obstruction because they saw a light. Has anyone here?
I am sure the CAA after reading your pearls of wisdom will change the regs and have all lighting removed off tall buildings like Canary Wharf???
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Wayne Manor
Posts: 1,517
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lots of green park areas around and leading up to the Vauxhall area.
Failing that.... a very, very,very slow descent onto one of the bridges ? (very much less than ideal, I know.... but better than meeting a crane in the mist !)
Oh, and there's also the Oval cricket ground !
Failing that.... a very, very,very slow descent onto one of the bridges ? (very much less than ideal, I know.... but better than meeting a crane in the mist !)
Oh, and there's also the Oval cricket ground !
Last edited by stuckgear; 18th Jan 2013 at 14:04.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I firmly believe we may never know what happened. Two things will be known already - track and estimated speed at impact from the wreckage trail. There is a good possibility that altitude (but not height and track) could be established over the flight. Without reliable witnesses as to position and heading at any time, the rest will be conjecture
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Wayne Manor
Posts: 1,517
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I firmly believe we may never know what happened.
Last edited by stuckgear; 18th Jan 2013 at 14:07.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Earth
Posts: 3,663
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
yeah of course.. any heli can just land at will in a park in inner city london, have a smoke and wait for the weather to clear up.
You made a bad call on the weather. Its closed in around you. You know you're about to hit an area of London that you would rather not be in under cover of cloud and potential ice.
Assuming you have exhausted all other viable options, don't press-on, put the damn thing down ..... I'm sure the CAA would much rather see you do that than end up hitting a crane.
Infact, didn't someone link to a AIC pink on the subject ? You might want to read it..... P146/2012 issued 20 December 2012.
Last edited by mixture; 18th Jan 2013 at 14:09.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by stuckgear
any heli can just land at will in a park
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BOAC:
We know with certainty that he was too low for that location. What we don't know is whether the contractor was in compliance with whatever structure lighting requirements your aviation authority mandates.
Lighting of "temporary structures" in the U.S. is all over the map, no pun intended. If a building is being constructed in Manhattan where the crane would be lower than surrounding buildings the lighting requirement would likely be less than if the building was higher than the surrounding buildings. But, in the FAA at least, these decisions are left to indifferent clerks.
The contractor, if he was really smart, would have required strobes, if that is possible during the day when the crane is in operation. Then again, if the crane can be lowered when not in operation, that would also seem to be a prudent action.
I firmly believe we may never know what happened. Two things will be known already - track and estimated speed at impact from the wreckage trail. There is a good possibility that altitude (but not height and track) could be established over the flight. Without reliable witnesses as to position and heading at any time, the rest will be conjecture
Lighting of "temporary structures" in the U.S. is all over the map, no pun intended. If a building is being constructed in Manhattan where the crane would be lower than surrounding buildings the lighting requirement would likely be less than if the building was higher than the surrounding buildings. But, in the FAA at least, these decisions are left to indifferent clerks.
The contractor, if he was really smart, would have required strobes, if that is possible during the day when the crane is in operation. Then again, if the crane can be lowered when not in operation, that would also seem to be a prudent action.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Wayne Manor
Posts: 1,517
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And its attitudes like that are contributing factors towards accidents....the red-mist, press-on effect !
you have never to my knowledge flown with me, nor i with you. so it would be best not to make conjecture of my decision making in the cockpit, nor will I with you.
further to that, i never flew with Peter Barnes, did you ?
on that basis I would not make any assumptions on the late Mr Barnes decision making in the cockpit, and would suggest you do not either.
you were not there, nor were I, neither you nor I am aware of the circumstances that could have led Mr Barnes into a 'box canyon' situation.
you are making speculation of Mr Barnes flight skills having not been there, and i would hazard, not having flown with him.
Last edited by stuckgear; 18th Jan 2013 at 14:18.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What we don't know is whether the contractor was in compliance with whatever structure lighting requirements your aviation authority mandates.
Last edited by BOAC; 18th Jan 2013 at 14:19.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Earth
Posts: 3,663
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
further to that, i never flew with Peter Barnes, did you ?
on that basis I would not make any assumptions on the late Mr Barnes decision making in the cockpit, and would suggest you do not either.
on that basis I would not make any assumptions on the late Mr Barnes decision making in the cockpit, and would suggest you do not either.
I'm not making assumptions.
I was merely astonished as to your attitude that putting a helo down in a precautionary landing seemed to be something you would never contemplate.
I came to that conclusion based on your wording of your earlier statement. How else was I meant to interpret the following phrase
yeah of course.. any heli can just land at will in a park in inner city london, have a smoke and wait for the weather to clear up.
Last edited by mixture; 18th Jan 2013 at 14:22.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Kent
Age: 65
Posts: 216
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Strikes me - and I may be very naive - that the nice thing about flying a helicopter is that you can 'stop' and hang around in one place for a bit while you contact ATC / wait thirty seconds for mist to clear / check a map. Or is there a fuel penalty for hovering? Increased workload when holding station? Is it just not done to hover in a lane?
I'm still puzzled as to why the a/c seems to have been approaching from the east -when the original flightpath must surely have taken it well to the west of London - and why the pilot did not contact Battersea control. If he didn't have time to communicate, suggests he was too busy aviating?
I'm still puzzled as to why the a/c seems to have been approaching from the east -when the original flightpath must surely have taken it well to the west of London - and why the pilot did not contact Battersea control. If he didn't have time to communicate, suggests he was too busy aviating?
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Wayne Manor
Posts: 1,517
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
- I was not going to respond to your posts, but I will ask you what you would do in a helo then if you had insufficient weather conditions to continue safe flight?
landing in an open space not cleared for heli operations in a built up area carries a signficant risk of errm. contact with structures, which are unlit and possibly very difficult to see.
Peter Barnes was an experienced EMS Heli pilot so i'm sure had more expereince of anyone on these boards in putting a heli down in such an area.
what would i do in his situation ? well i cant comment on that, because I, like non of us, know the full situational circumstances of the incident.
Flarm
Great Idea.
Took the French gliding clubs making it obligatory in the Alps before the Brits started adopting it.
The Montpellier club pooh poohed it until a foolish instructor had a mid air a couple of years ago. £120,000 plus damage all for the sake of saving £500 per machine.
Took the French gliding clubs making it obligatory in the Alps before the Brits started adopting it.
The Montpellier club pooh poohed it until a foolish instructor had a mid air a couple of years ago. £120,000 plus damage all for the sake of saving £500 per machine.
Just a numbered other
The crane was there, it was known to be there by anyone who'd read the NOTAM.
It was required to be lit at night. It was hit by a helicopter in daylight .
The helicopter was flying in weather below the limits set for SVFR in the London Control Zone .
Why the helicopter got into a position to collide with the crane is known to only one person, who is sadly no longer with us, and unable to tell us why.
Shades of the Mull of Kintyre June 1994?
Just as then, the helo carries no FDR or CVR, so we will probably never find out exactly why this happened.
at least Capt Barnes doesn't have two vindictive bosses about to place all the blame squarely on him .
It was required to be lit at night. It was hit by a helicopter in daylight .
The helicopter was flying in weather below the limits set for SVFR in the London Control Zone .
Why the helicopter got into a position to collide with the crane is known to only one person, who is sadly no longer with us, and unable to tell us why.
Shades of the Mull of Kintyre June 1994?
Just as then, the helo carries no FDR or CVR, so we will probably never find out exactly why this happened.
at least Capt Barnes doesn't have two vindictive bosses about to place all the blame squarely on him .
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Age: 69
Posts: 292
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pace,
I think I am saying that...though it sounds extreme initially. Can anyone on this board confirm that they or some reliable third party witness had taken evasive action on seeing lights on a tall structure? Out in the sticks where there are gliders and low-hours PLLs in dodgy VMC or night - radio masts, etc., then lights must be sensible. Near Canary Wharf? In any case it's hard to make out the statutory lights from the decorative lights. Seriously, has anyone here used lights while flying professionally for collision avoidance?
I am sure the CAA after reading your pearls of wisdom will change the regs and have all lighting removed off tall buildings like Canary Wharf???