4 Ryanair aircraft declare fuel emergency at same time
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I guess thats why there used to be aBanner Ad at the top of this page advertising plumbers jobs. . . . . . . always thought that was a little bit exaggerated, but when you see the salaries "enjoyed" in certain companies, (and having spoken to an ATPL holder who was also a free-lance self employed plumber ) I can confirm it is indeed certainly career enhancement.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Policies, no, airmanship yes - it is what a Captain is paid for. Not sure why we keep on looking for 'rules' here. If you have not got enough fuel and the weather is crud, you push off somewhere better and let the company sort it out.
Last edited by BOAC; 11th Aug 2012 at 16:43.
Policies, no, airmanship yes - it is what a Captain is paid for. Not sure why we keep on looking for 'rules' here. If you have not got enough fuel and the weather is crud, you push off somewhere better and let the company sort it out.
Doing "things right" (slavishly following a set of rules) is management whereas doing the "right thing" is leadership.
Trouble is the "MacDonalds" approach to aviation (or "painting by numbers") which is now being brainwashed into pilots by certain Companies is becoming far too prevalent.
Of course rules and procedures are important to safe operation but, in my opinion, proficient aircraft Commanders/Pilots also need "original thought" to stay out of trouble - as you say that's what the Captain is paid for.
Also the "rules" are the minimum requirements - I see far too much analysis of PROB30 versus PROB40 TS etc.
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business model?
would it be cynical to suggest that an airline might want its aircraft to fly minimal fuel so if delayed by ATC they can declare low fuel and therefore be prioritised over other delayed aircraft?
They're not making money when the aircraft is on the ground...
They're not making money when the aircraft is on the ground...
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One thing that most pilots do not realize is that PROB30 and PROB40 is NOT a percentage.
With a prob 40 you can expect the conditionto happen, it is not only 40 percent chance.
With a prob 40 you can expect the conditionto happen, it is not only 40 percent chance.
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Why does more fuel equal more safety?
More fuel only means extended holding and a greater choice of in-flight planned destination alternates. It may increase your chances of landing at your planned destination, only because you can hold for longer than those on "minimum fuel". Where the 'extra' safety comes from is a mystery, all the time we have control over where we point the aircraft and up to the minute information about airfield weather, it is not compromised.
Unfortunately "weather" only accounts for a mere 8% on accident statistics. But "mechanical failures", for example, represents something like 24% and "pilot error", more than 50%.
As to the phase of flight, "approach and landing" accounts for 36% of all the accident statistics.
How long did it took that Qantas A380 (re-enforced) crew to deal with their emergency? Airliners are much more liable today, but they are also much more complex to handle, especially when not in normal operation.
So why do we take our fuel decisions only having in mind the weather circumstances? Aviation is not an exact science. Airmanship and experience are the answers, not been counters and rules.
I understand that SOP's are necessary for guidance, and rules are minimums, but captain's discretion must never be challenged by pen pushers. Final fuel decision is Captain's decision.
After a two men crew long night flight (or even after a long day short-haul roster) I'd rather reach my destination with some time/fuel to spare if needed, than with only a 5 minute extra...that's why I believe that a 30 min final fuel reserve is not enough. It should be extended to 45 minutes.
Last edited by aguadalte; 12th Aug 2012 at 23:27.
"prob"IS a % chance of the condition!!
Guys,
refer to this link to confirm that in Europe and lots of other places "prob" IS the expected chance of change expressed as a %
METAR TAF DECODE
refer to this link to confirm that in Europe and lots of other places "prob" IS the expected chance of change expressed as a %
METAR TAF DECODE
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Statement about this:
Madrid Diversions To Valencia 26 July
Madrid Diversions To Valencia 26 July
MADRID DIVERSIONS TO VALENCIA 26 JULY
Due to severe thunderstorms over Madrid on Thursday (26 July) Spanish air traffic control instructed a number of inbound aircraft (including 3 Ryanair aircraft) to divert to and hold over Valencia Airport. Having held over Valencia for 50 mins, 68 mins and 69 mins after their scheduled landing time in Madrid, Ryanair’s 3 aircraft (following standard industry safety procedures) requested air traffic control permission to land immediately as they reached their reserve fuel minimums, which allow each aircraft to operate for an additional 30 minutes (approx 300 miles) of flying.
All 3 aircraft landed normally with reserve fuel levels (of approx 30 mins or 300 miles of flying) remaining.
Due to severe thunderstorms over Madrid on Thursday (26 July) Spanish air traffic control instructed a number of inbound aircraft (including 3 Ryanair aircraft) to divert to and hold over Valencia Airport. Having held over Valencia for 50 mins, 68 mins and 69 mins after their scheduled landing time in Madrid, Ryanair’s 3 aircraft (following standard industry safety procedures) requested air traffic control permission to land immediately as they reached their reserve fuel minimums, which allow each aircraft to operate for an additional 30 minutes (approx 300 miles) of flying.
All 3 aircraft landed normally with reserve fuel levels (of approx 30 mins or 300 miles of flying) remaining.
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This is not true, Spanish ATC cannot instruct you to divert (and hasn't done this) and they have not been held holding over VLC, as the landed as soon as they reached the airport.
If you have any doubt, FlightRadar24, click on Playback and watch from 19:00Z on 26/07
RYR9VR (STN) and RYR5389 (NYO) are two of the maydays, and they went straight to VLC after very few minutes.
The other should be RYR2054 (PMI)
If you have any doubt, FlightRadar24, click on Playback and watch from 19:00Z on 26/07
RYR9VR (STN) and RYR5389 (NYO) are two of the maydays, and they went straight to VLC after very few minutes.
The other should be RYR2054 (PMI)
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good judgement
Whenever I have in front of me a forecast saying there will be possibility of bad wx, I increase block fuel at least of an extra 15/30 min FT...Am I wrong?
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If you have any doubt, FlightRadar24, click on Playback and watch from 19:00Z on 26/07
RYR9VR (STN) and RYR5389 (NYO) are two of the maydays, and they went straight to VLC after very few minutes.
The other should be RYR2054 (PMI)
RYR9VR (STN) and RYR5389 (NYO) are two of the maydays, and they went straight to VLC after very few minutes.
The other should be RYR2054 (PMI)
Three aircrafts were at LEMD no more than 20 minutes, what I see a normal procedure, arrive to destination and proceed to alternate, no holding or waiting at LEMD.
Also, no holding or waiting at LEVC.
I don´t know where did they get the numbers for the holdings times at Valencia, would love to know it to write them a hard letter.
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@Depone
The KLM plane did not, as far as I know, declare an emergency, they just stated they had 5 minutes (extra) left.
And there is nothing wrong with that. Some bad weather days, I have to give the same reply to ATC when they ask me how much longer I can stay in a hold. Five minutes and than I have to divert (or better said, choose where to commit) to land with the required 30 minutes in tanks.
Even taking no drop of extra fuel would make for a safe flight, if you decide to divert early enough.
Declaring a emergency (assuming that is what has happened) only means one thing, something went not according to plan, or the plan was wrong to begin with.
Diverting early enough means you don't have to say mayday, unless really unforseen things happen. The mentioned LAN with an engine failure causing a extra holding delay at your diversion airport can be quite unforseen and bring you in the mayday phase...
Any evidence yet that any FR planes declared any emergency that day in MAD?
Or that they were alone (apart from an alleged KLM plane) that did so?
Just wondering.
Or that they were alone (apart from an alleged KLM plane) that did so?
Just wondering.
And there is nothing wrong with that. Some bad weather days, I have to give the same reply to ATC when they ask me how much longer I can stay in a hold. Five minutes and than I have to divert (or better said, choose where to commit) to land with the required 30 minutes in tanks.
Even taking no drop of extra fuel would make for a safe flight, if you decide to divert early enough.
Declaring a emergency (assuming that is what has happened) only means one thing, something went not according to plan, or the plan was wrong to begin with.
Diverting early enough means you don't have to say mayday, unless really unforseen things happen. The mentioned LAN with an engine failure causing a extra holding delay at your diversion airport can be quite unforseen and bring you in the mayday phase...
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What kind of pilot would take off for CBs-cluttered airfield with only minimum fuel !!!????!!!
A slaved-stockholm-syndromed pilot, maybe ?
Surely not a responsible ,gutsy-one, for sure !!
What I notice is that all other airlines have had to pay for Ryanair's fueling policy as they had to accept Ryanair's 738s priority...
Anyway I think Ryanair's chief pilot needs to get the sack and be taken to court for his inducement to dangerous behaviors.
There should be NO pressure on pilots regarding the amount of fuel they take on, only relevant information in order to have pilots make their own sound decisions, weighing costs vs risks and operations.
A slaved-stockholm-syndromed pilot, maybe ?
Surely not a responsible ,gutsy-one, for sure !!
What I notice is that all other airlines have had to pay for Ryanair's fueling policy as they had to accept Ryanair's 738s priority...
Anyway I think Ryanair's chief pilot needs to get the sack and be taken to court for his inducement to dangerous behaviors.
There should be NO pressure on pilots regarding the amount of fuel they take on, only relevant information in order to have pilots make their own sound decisions, weighing costs vs risks and operations.
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I don't see the problem with minimum fuel while the destination is covered with TS. It just means the chance is higher you have to divert. It only means that.
Is it smart? No, not in my opinion, since diverting costs more money then 30 minutes of extra fuel. But it doesn't make it unsafe, as long as you keep planning to land with 30 mins of fuel left.
It does limit your options and makes for more work though..
Is it smart? No, not in my opinion, since diverting costs more money then 30 minutes of extra fuel. But it doesn't make it unsafe, as long as you keep planning to land with 30 mins of fuel left.
It does limit your options and makes for more work though..