4 Ryanair aircraft declare fuel emergency at same time
In all my 5 years with Ryanair I never had any excess fuel questioned so long as you stated the reason on the Voyage Report (and believe me if I thought extra was necessary then I took it!).
The issue seems to revolve around their Captains who have only ever flown for Ryanair from the cradle in combination with (a few) overzealous Base Captains putting them under pressure.
I gather the Base Captains are paid extra based on either on time performance or "fuel performance" (ie for the base aircraft/crews) and the BCs can opt for whichever they prefer.
This fact might explain why certain BCs put Captains under pressure to carry PLOG fuel. One has, of course, to question whether this method of paying BCs extra is really in the interests of flight safety.
If I was put under pressure in this way I would be inclined to file an SAIR (aka MOR) and also keep personal records (and details of witnesses) to be used in the event of employment issues.
The issue seems to revolve around their Captains who have only ever flown for Ryanair from the cradle in combination with (a few) overzealous Base Captains putting them under pressure.
I gather the Base Captains are paid extra based on either on time performance or "fuel performance" (ie for the base aircraft/crews) and the BCs can opt for whichever they prefer.
This fact might explain why certain BCs put Captains under pressure to carry PLOG fuel. One has, of course, to question whether this method of paying BCs extra is really in the interests of flight safety.
If I was put under pressure in this way I would be inclined to file an SAIR (aka MOR) and also keep personal records (and details of witnesses) to be used in the event of employment issues.
fireflybob:
I understand exactly what you are saying but, by the same token, who was pressurising the KLM captain (and others) who were in the same situation?
In other other words, is the problem industry-wide?
I have to say that no one in my long flying career ever questioned my fuel planning.
Incidentally, I once worked for a US Part 121 carrier that used to publish monthly fuel-league figures. There was absolutely no money involved nor were there career-ending posibilities.
I was always in the top four but I never made it past 2nd. Old Flash was, as often as not, in 1st place and no matter how many beers I bought him, I was never able to learn his secret!
I understand exactly what you are saying but, by the same token, who was pressurising the KLM captain (and others) who were in the same situation?
In other other words, is the problem industry-wide?
I have to say that no one in my long flying career ever questioned my fuel planning.
Incidentally, I once worked for a US Part 121 carrier that used to publish monthly fuel-league figures. There was absolutely no money involved nor were there career-ending posibilities.
I was always in the top four but I never made it past 2nd. Old Flash was, as often as not, in 1st place and no matter how many beers I bought him, I was never able to learn his secret!
Last edited by JW411; 28th Jul 2012 at 17:30.
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Top secret: Tres aviones de Ryanair solicitan aterrizaje de emergencia por falta de combustible | Intereconomía | 817649
I could put the report of a RYR that landed in Vlc some time ago with fumes on the fuel lines instead of fuel but im not gonna even bother.
I could put the report of a RYR that landed in Vlc some time ago with fumes on the fuel lines instead of fuel but im not gonna even bother.
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Why ? if you are going to bad-mouth them it is surely more convincing to do it with the proof there to refute any accusations we may make of unjustified slander. Or is it also just that "an accusation" ?
The videoclip you have posted does indeed seem to have two of Mikeys finest declaring a "Mayday", so, it seems to support the OP's allegation. Wonder where the TV company got the recordings from. . . . . the "Air Nostrum/Iberia Supporters Club" ? ? aka Madrid/Valencia ATC ?
I thought from some very distant memory that there was legislation relating to the release of these tapes, particularly when an "incident" is concerned (& declaring a Mayday is an incident in my book) or the "Spotters" were making recordings.
Or perhaps a bit of good old fashioned partisan protectionism has supplanted correct protocol.
Have KLM's calls being released, or didn't they bother as they "hoped" to land with final reserve fuel.
Anyways, the 2 Ryanairs sounded (at that moment) very calm about declaring a Mayday, so maybe they ARE making a habit of it ?
The videoclip you have posted does indeed seem to have two of Mikeys finest declaring a "Mayday", so, it seems to support the OP's allegation. Wonder where the TV company got the recordings from. . . . . the "Air Nostrum/Iberia Supporters Club" ? ? aka Madrid/Valencia ATC ?
I thought from some very distant memory that there was legislation relating to the release of these tapes, particularly when an "incident" is concerned (& declaring a Mayday is an incident in my book) or the "Spotters" were making recordings.
Or perhaps a bit of good old fashioned partisan protectionism has supplanted correct protocol.
Have KLM's calls being released, or didn't they bother as they "hoped" to land with final reserve fuel.
Anyways, the 2 Ryanairs sounded (at that moment) very calm about declaring a Mayday, so maybe they ARE making a habit of it ?
Last edited by captplaystation; 28th Jul 2012 at 18:22.
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Extra fuel
On an average leg on a short haul flight, the extra fuel carried does not make any difference. Ask ATC for a shortcut or make a good TOD so you don´t have to use speed brakes is a better way to save fuel.
Last edited by Dusthog; 28th Jul 2012 at 18:14.
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dlcmdrx
Top secret: Tres aviones de Ryanair solicitan aterrizaje de emergencia por falta de combustible | Intereconomía | 817649
What sort of fuel figures do Ryanair pilots routinely arrive overhead with?
Do they arrive with less than 2T on a nice day?
I will top it up to 2.5T overhead destination if it comes out as less than that.
I started doing that after one flight where a failure caused loss of Hyd A while on descent and we had control difficulties and landed with 1000kg instead of the 3000kg we were initially showing overhead. The weather was perfect that day.
Do they arrive with less than 2T on a nice day?
I will top it up to 2.5T overhead destination if it comes out as less than that.
I started doing that after one flight where a failure caused loss of Hyd A while on descent and we had control difficulties and landed with 1000kg instead of the 3000kg we were initially showing overhead. The weather was perfect that day.
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4yrs ago final reserve fuel was 1100kg, and some alternates had a calculated burn of 900 odd, so you could (if you took min fuel & had unfavorable winds/FL allocated) arr at Dest with less than 2tons.
I could usually find an "excuse" not to.
I could usually find an "excuse" not to.
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Spanish media reporting on Ryanair through leaked ATC tapes. Probably less effort put into the Iberia A340 that went off the end of the runway at Quito and the Air Europa 738 that did something similar at Lanzarote.
This thread is yet another example of people secretly hoping for two poor bastards sitting up at the pointy end of a Ryanair 737 to seriously **** up. Correct me if I'm wrong?
This thread is yet another example of people secretly hoping for two poor bastards sitting up at the pointy end of a Ryanair 737 to seriously **** up. Correct me if I'm wrong?
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There was actually something else in the mix. Another diverting aircraft I believe a LAN Chile had declared an engine failure during his diversion to VLC. On arriving at VLC, ATC were handing out an extra 30+ minutes holding to arriving diverting aircraft. ATC was chaotic and a few aircraft looked at what was going on and continued down the coast to ALC where things were a lot quieter.
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Policy at my company is to declare "minimum fuel" if landing is anticipated with minimum reserve fuel aboard and to declare an emergency if landing will be at 30 minutes or less fuel remaining.
I have held until reaching "min fuel" (plus personal extra) then have encountered delays in the subsequent divert. I have also bailed out early and arrived at the alternate with an abundance of remaining fuel. I have never gone to the point of declaring a fuel emergency but have gone into the region between min and emergency fuel.
You can arrive at the holding pattern with 10000 extra, then leave the hold for the alternate at min fuel. Is it more prudent to wait out weather in a holding pattern and avoid a (costly) divert or to divert now and avoid the rush later?
Answer: it depends.
Some a quick to jump on the Ryanair guys, but in the end it is only the crew who make the decisions.
Gotta love the peanut gallery.
I have held until reaching "min fuel" (plus personal extra) then have encountered delays in the subsequent divert. I have also bailed out early and arrived at the alternate with an abundance of remaining fuel. I have never gone to the point of declaring a fuel emergency but have gone into the region between min and emergency fuel.
You can arrive at the holding pattern with 10000 extra, then leave the hold for the alternate at min fuel. Is it more prudent to wait out weather in a holding pattern and avoid a (costly) divert or to divert now and avoid the rush later?
Answer: it depends.
Some a quick to jump on the Ryanair guys, but in the end it is only the crew who make the decisions.
Gotta love the peanut gallery.
Last edited by BobnSpike; 28th Jul 2012 at 20:57.
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Terrible that an ATPL Captain feels compelled to comply with unsafe scenarios while I whisk my 3 pax safely on their way with max fuel (depending on shopping). I should not feel safer when I jump off the Airbus and into my Cessna. Sadly I do. 
Last edited by subsonicsubic; 28th Jul 2012 at 21:14. Reason: Sorry. Airbus / Boeing / etc etc
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I didn t say that the engine failed due to a divert. I was simply saying that it was an added factor for ATC to deal with in an already complicated situation with lots of aircraft diverting at the same time and at least a couple of Mayday calls thrown in for good measure. Like I said, diverting aircraft were being given 30+ minute EATs at VLC.
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Sorry about the slow response:
Does one really have to question this, or is it not blatantly obvious?
This airline is living right on the edge of sensibility when it comes to safety. My own policy of not using it, nor allowing my family to do so, becomes stronger almost every time I peruse the pages of PPrune.
I gather the Base Captains are paid extra based on either on time performance or "fuel performance" (ie for the base aircraft/crews) and the BCs can opt for whichever they prefer.
This fact might explain why certain BCs put Captains under pressure to carry PLOG fuel. One has, of course, to question whether this method of paying BCs extra is really in the interests of flight safety.
This fact might explain why certain BCs put Captains under pressure to carry PLOG fuel. One has, of course, to question whether this method of paying BCs extra is really in the interests of flight safety.
This airline is living right on the edge of sensibility when it comes to safety. My own policy of not using it, nor allowing my family to do so, becomes stronger almost every time I peruse the pages of PPrune.
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I think you will find statistics wise FR have a very good safety record. One hull loss which was a double engine failure in Rome.
When I was in FR we nearly always landed between 3 and 3.2 tonnes. I think the lowest I ever landed was 2.2 tonnes in my time there.
I think people are losing sight of the fact that FR were not the only aircraft diverting from Madrid that night.
When I was in FR we nearly always landed between 3 and 3.2 tonnes. I think the lowest I ever landed was 2.2 tonnes in my time there.
I think people are losing sight of the fact that FR were not the only aircraft diverting from Madrid that night.
Last edited by antonov09; 28th Jul 2012 at 22:40.
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Reading about a "fuel league", where, if I understand correctly, the guy with the least extra spent gets to be number one is a first for me.
Having flown for 15 years now, I never even heard of anything such contrary towards flight safety!
That really shocks me; I am speechless!
And it seems some find pleasure being up top in that league... (or having been).
I took an hours worth of extra to MUC today, the forecast being prop 40 +TSRA, and had 3 similas alternates.
I landed with all of it in my tanks, and I believe I did my PAX, myself, and my company a favor taking the fuel load.
Having flown for 15 years now, I never even heard of anything such contrary towards flight safety!
That really shocks me; I am speechless!
And it seems some find pleasure being up top in that league... (or having been).
I took an hours worth of extra to MUC today, the forecast being prop 40 +TSRA, and had 3 similas alternates.
I landed with all of it in my tanks, and I believe I did my PAX, myself, and my company a favor taking the fuel load.
Ut Sementem Feeceris
Just a thought. The South American aircraft that diverted and allegedly suffered an engine failure - what type? A340/B747 i.e. 4 holer or B777/A330. Would ATC still give priority to a 4 holer down to 3 over aircraft declaring fuel emergency? Genuine question - do ATC have definitive guidance on this?
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You've heard of take off weight limits I hope?!
Last edited by BALLSOUT; 28th Jul 2012 at 23:26.