4 Ryanair aircraft declare fuel emergency at same time

[shaun ryder]

4 Ryanair aircraft had to declare a fuel emergency last night

7) Ryanair crews don't fly around on fumes and I'm expecting yesterday to not have been something as straight forward as just that.

Seems like four of them probably were?

I reckon this is another case of smearing Ryanair pilots as cowboys. If it is, kindly do one.

I dont think so, but you have to question WHY 4 of their aircraft got into the situation where they were all flying with less than final reserve fuel? You have to wonder.

[aerobat]

Lets be clear about Ryanair fuel policy. On a non tankering sector if conditions are good we are expected to uplift minimum legal fuel and up to an extra 300kg. However we can take as much as we like but have to justify why on the voyage report otherwise we get a snotty letter.
In ten years as a Captain never once have my ( many ) extra uplifts been queried.

[sheetal]

Ryanair crews don't fly around on fumes and I'm expecting yesterday to not have been something as straight forward as just that.

[transilvana]

Problem is:

RyanAir Su cks. Rest is nosense

4 aircrafts is too much, Iīve seen too many of these declaring fuel emergency everywhere in europe, it looks standard procedure, even with Weather CAVOK and nice wind enroute but as you can not get your optimal FL you burn those extra 300kg and more.

Well guys, if you fly in a shi tty company you get shi tty procedures, someday you will have an accident and your shi tty and paranoic boss will directly blame you and it would be your fault.

Donīt come now and defend the company, I will be very happy if someday the company cease operations, probably I will get the biggest hangover in my life

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Before I start Ryanair bashing I'd be interested to know where these 4 aircraft departed from and if they could actually have carried anymore gas.

[BALLSOUT]

Before I start Ryanair bashing I'd be interested to know where these 4 aircraft departed from and if they could actually have carried anymore gas.

Spain is about slap bang in the middle of the Ryanair route network so can't see it would ever be a problem to carry extra fuel to MAD on any of their flights.
I am not here to defend the company but I have been a captain in Ryanair for many years. I have always carried extra fuel when ever I have seen fit and never had any come back. You make your fuel decision and write it up on the voyage report, the same as I have always done in any company I have flown for. Not a problem!

[captplaystation]

Have to agree with aerobat & BALLSOUT, in my 6 years there I was never taken to task for carrying extra fuel, which I could & always did justify by a note on the voyage report, but. . . . . I did see quite a few colleagues (as we sometimes flew 2xCapt's together) who seemed to think it was somehow going to elevate their status if they took min & not min+300, or thought that 500 extra was fine arriving in the Med with TS forecast at destination + Alt 1 & 2.

Unfortunately, some Base Capts (thinking a large UK base here particularly) have personal history of arriving on fumes, &, think that others should accept the same risk & lack of professionalism that they are comfortable with. Lets face it, anyone who has in the past criticised people for ARRIVING with too much fuel, really doesn't get it . . . . so, you should refuse short-cuts & select F40 at 20nm just to keep the village-idiot happy ?


Main cause of concern to me is the percentage of Commanders with no prior experience in other companies, who respect/adhere to the exhortations of aforesaid Base Lackeys (and it certainly used to be only a few bad eggs carrying this onerous reputation, the majority seemed to accept common-sense decisions from the "troops") ) without thinking it through for themselves. There were unfortunately a few terminally indoctrinated individuals who blindly followed the company edicts, this should serve as a wake up call to them that the buck stops with them & that their list of priorities should read 1- Safety 2- Legality 3- Commercial/Company perceived (or real) pressure, & not the inverse.

[Depone]

Not wishing to put a stop to what is quite a good story, but has anyone seen any evidence whatsoever that this happened, except the hearsay from the OP?

And, assuming that it did happen, which given the wx and FR's fuel policy seems feasible, is it not likely that many other aircraft diverted at the same time? If so, what makes you think would have landed with much more in their tanks?

That is, of course, if you're willing to look at this with an open mind.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Originally Posted by studi

You can always carry more gas if the weather is extremely borderline. Just make a fuelstop somewhere or leave load behind. That is what companies do who are serious about flight safety.

A few CBs is hardly borderline.

Originally Posted by ballsout

Spain is about slap bang in the middle of the Ryanair route network so can't see it would ever be a problem to carry extra fuel to MAD on any of their flights.

You've heard of take off weight limits I hope?!

[Tu.114]

One question for the sake of those not rated on 737:

A maximum extra of 300 or 500kg has been mentioned. Just for better understanding - how many minutes would that amount to?

[RAT 5]

TS's in Spain in Summer. How accurate can a forecast be? As a glider pilots in mountains, i.e. been there, done that, been scared, I always feel extremely wary of TS's. If the conditions are there for possible CB's how can a computer model decide, 20hrs in advance, that the chance is only for SCT or FEW CB's, and how can they say the PROB is only XYZ% that they'll be TEMPO. Fuel is your only insurance and it is way cheaper than diversion, hotels, cancelled flights etc. Again, just after a min'fuel campaign I was very hard pushed to follow my instincts based on the TAF. Had to divert due TS, wind shear, flooded rwy, but other a/c landed 40mins later. Our 18hr day ended back at base at 06.00, 7 hours late for us and pax, all for the lack of 45mins fuel that gut instinct wanted. Trouble was all ALTN's were ok and destination had PROB 30 TEMPO SCT CB's 3000'. Company guidelines just issued were no extra extra fuel, so it was the usual 10mins. Not enough. The following morning flight was cancelled, but who cares.
Remember the BY B757 that went on a Cook's tour of NE Spain trying to land and eventually was committed to GRO and slid off the rwy in heavy rain. If I remember he didn't have too much extra motion lotion. I'm sure there are 1000's of stories in USA (FLorida in summer) and SE Asia.

[captplaystation]

RAT5, it was a bit more serious than slid off the RW, if you look up the report it will indeed confirm that the forecast for GRO and the surrounding area "may" have demanded a litle more imagination in the departure fuel chosen. 100% agreed, a bit of extra gas & it would likely have ended with a safe diversion to BCN. But, company culture & previous fast-jet experience may have won the day in that decision methinks.

TU114, around 2000-2200kg/hr holding/transiting at low to medium level, so 500=15min at best, 300. . . .barely enough for a procedural appr.

Any diversion I have ever made (unless it was really right next door) has always consumed the best part of a ton minimum, hence my personal mantra of always planning to land with 2000kg min &/or making a decision that will stick before I reach that figure.
I am never comfortable being airborne with less than 1 hr to flameout. . . . (having not been a fighter jock in a former life) feel free to call me a wuss if you like, but I do have 189+ others who may not share my bravado if I made that choice.

[antonov09]

Tu 114

300kg endurance wise is roughly 8 minutes.

Studi: As Spandex said a few CBs is hardly borderline. If you PM me I can explain to you how to use the weather radar.

[BOAC]

Originally Posted by a09

If you PM me I can explain to you how to use the weather radar

- yes please - we'd all be interested in how you use it to decide fuel uplift. Yes, even after 47 years at piloting it is posts like your that show me I still have stuff to learn.

[JW411]

Sarah 737 (who was actually there) tells us in Post #23 that KLM (and others) turned up at Madrid with only 5 minutes of extra fuel. Once the usual unpromising hysterics among you have finished venting your spleens about Ryanair, are we to assume that you will turn your attention to the fuel planning policies of KLM (and others)?

I look forward to receiving your wisdom.

[Tu.114]

Captplaystation and Antonov9,

thank You for the explanation - so one might say that 100kgs of extra will equal 3 minutes.

Looking at FRs mentioned regulations with this in mind and obviously not knowing the internal workings of this company, I am under the impression that 15 minutes is an acceptable amount if nothing untoward is expected, but in case of snow or CBs there likely will be many reports written.

So another question - most companies (mine included) will invite the Commander to take as little extra fuel as he deems justifiable, but that mentioned fuel league seems to be one step beyond a mere invitation. Are there prizes to be won, or is only an invitation for self-supplied tea and biscuits at stake?

[antonov09]

Boac

I dont use the weather radar to decide fuel uplift(funnily enough). I usually use a weather radar to fly upwind of a CB,if Im below 20000ft I usually like to stay at least 10 miles. I usually use a combination of Metars TAFs and an applicable Sig Weather chart for fuel uplift.


I hope that clarifies things for you.

[BOAC]

So, please explain what relevance that has to this thread which is about fuel uplift?

[BOAC]

JW - there is nothing actually WRONG in arriving anywhere with only '5 minutes extra'- it is what you do when you get there that matters. I would assume from what I have read here that there was no sensible option of burning div fuel over MAD, so as was always my policy in those situations - divert early and get there with a bit of 'extra'.

[JW411]

BOAC:

Exactly so; but all we know is that the originator of this thread made the dramatic statement that four Ryanair aircraft declared "fuel emergency" at the same time.

As you and I know very well there is no such thing (in Europe anyway) as declaring a fuel emergency. It's a Mayday call.

My suspicion is that four Ryanair aircraft bowled into Madrid, which had Cb activity in the area. There is nothing surprising about that for they have a lot of flights into Madrid. The aircraft held until they reached minimum diversion fuel and then diverted to Valencia. On arrival, it would not be remiss to tell ATC that you are on minimum diversion fuel.

They were not the only aircraft diverting. It doesn't matter if you hold for five minutes or hold for an hour, when you reach minimum diversion fuel then you had better go.

I have arrived at Micke intersection on Long Island inbound to JFK in similar weather conditions and been given an estimated 45 minute delay but that was only an estimate. It was often better to dive into Bradley and refuel because you could fly around in circles for 45 minutes at Micke and then still divert.

I very much doubt that, even on a really good day, Madrid ATC would have any idea of what was actually going on and would be quite incapable of producing a credible EAT.

In summary, we have absolutely no evidence so far that any Ryanair aircraft declared a Mayday.

It is equally possible that all four Ryanair aircraft arrived at Madrid with plenty of fuel and then held until they got down to minimum diversion fuel.

Likewise, it is perfectly acceptable for KLM (and others) to turn up with just five minutes more fuel than required.

Did anyone actually have to call Mayday? I doubt it.

I just want to get some balance into the discussion.