AF 447 report out
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CVR Transcripts
The PIC reportedly says that he had only one hour of sleep... getting a lot of attention.
Captain of Air France plane that crashed into Atlantic Ocean killing everyone on board was running on one hour of sleep - NY Daily News
Captain of Air France plane that crashed into Atlantic Ocean killing everyone on board was running on one hour of sleep - NY Daily News
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No wonder it took so long to get him back into the cockpit
Very short time in a normal situation
But seen as long time when we know the event was less than 4 minutes from the beginning to the end .. so chronometer seems to run fast ...
Last edited by jcjeant; 18th Mar 2013 at 01:02.
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I think when he showed up in the cockpit it was too late. All mistakes were made and he had never seen such a mess before. Nobody deepstalls any airliner at altitude. They did. When he got there not seeing the beginning of the fiasco, he couldn't fix it.
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Knowing how to fly an airplane is very important as we all know. If you are taught which buttons to push and it doesn't work you just need to go back to basic flying as always. We all did it with no problem.
More thorough treatment here: Crash du Rio-Paris, la fatigue des pilotes a été cachée - Le Point
This article notes that it took the PIC over 90 seconds to get back to the cockpit; also that the rest of the crew was not at the top of their game. However I do not know if they consulted CVR tapes of other flights on that route at that time.
Maybe if just one of the crew was on the ball, the a/c could have been saved. That said I have been right seat in a sim crash from 16,000' where the left seat rolled inverted and left it there in spite of my shouting in his ear. Maybe training should include having the PF unexpectedly do something stupid.
Even if the PNF fails to intervene in time a valuable lesson will be learned.
This article notes that it took the PIC over 90 seconds to get back to the cockpit; also that the rest of the crew was not at the top of their game. However I do not know if they consulted CVR tapes of other flights on that route at that time.
Maybe if just one of the crew was on the ball, the a/c could have been saved. That said I have been right seat in a sim crash from 16,000' where the left seat rolled inverted and left it there in spite of my shouting in his ear. Maybe training should include having the PF unexpectedly do something stupid.
Even if the PNF fails to intervene in time a valuable lesson will be learned.
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I can't remember the times I was so dead tired and sleeping in the bunk and needed 3 calls to get me back on earth. Especially if You are in your first (REM) sleep, You might miss a call. You cannot blame someone who is sound asleep for that.
The relief crew system is based upon the fact that all normal and abnormal issues are handled well by the crew on duty. So short term problems and that includes a circumnavigation of weather and handling erroneous indicated air speeds. If that cannot be dealt with adequately, the problem does not lie in the amount of people in the cockpit.
If as a result of some failure or situation on board deems long term decisions necessary, it is time to get the boss out.
Reminds me of an old company story from the Constellation era that the relief crew ordered the captain to be awakened as a result of an engine shut down.
When entering the cockpit and assessing the situation he got furious, and while stumbling back to his sleeping quarters he was overheard grumbling G&*^%$ wake me F&*^%$^ up when another one $%^^# shuts down".
Only one hour sleep before the flight? Check today how much sleep right before the flight the crews have had when doing the early morning return flight from Asia back to Europe after a 24hr layover. It might be 7 hours. In total for the whole heavy crew.
The relief crew system is based upon the fact that all normal and abnormal issues are handled well by the crew on duty. So short term problems and that includes a circumnavigation of weather and handling erroneous indicated air speeds. If that cannot be dealt with adequately, the problem does not lie in the amount of people in the cockpit.
If as a result of some failure or situation on board deems long term decisions necessary, it is time to get the boss out.
Reminds me of an old company story from the Constellation era that the relief crew ordered the captain to be awakened as a result of an engine shut down.
When entering the cockpit and assessing the situation he got furious, and while stumbling back to his sleeping quarters he was overheard grumbling G&*^%$ wake me F&*^%$^ up when another one $%^^# shuts down".
Only one hour sleep before the flight? Check today how much sleep right before the flight the crews have had when doing the early morning return flight from Asia back to Europe after a 24hr layover. It might be 7 hours. In total for the whole heavy crew.
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stall warning 'inhibit' below 60kts
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOAC
Apologies if I have missed this in the welter
of OOZLUM bird flocking, but do we know if AB have now addressed the logic for
the stall warning 'inhibit' below 60kts?
Such particularity of the stall warning is not in the FCOM, therefore any
change made to it would be most probably transparent to us.
But A33Zab
would be the guy to answer the question as he seems more aware on those things.
Originally Posted by BOAC
Apologies if I have missed this in the welter
of OOZLUM bird flocking, but do we know if AB have now addressed the logic for
the stall warning 'inhibit' below 60kts?
Such particularity of the stall warning is not in the FCOM, therefore any
change made to it would be most probably transparent to us.
But A33Zab
would be the guy to answer the question as he seems more aware on those things.
IMO this was already resolved with BUSS option:
Flight Safety #05 dd december 2007:
"In order to decrease the crew workload in case of
unreliable speed, Airbus has developed the Back-
Up Speed Scale (BUSS) that replaces the pitch
and thrust tables. The BUSS is optional on
A320/A330/A340. It is basic on A380, being part
of the ADR Monitoring functions.
This indication is based on angle of attack(AOA)
sensor information, and is therefore not affected
by erroneous pressure measurements.
The BUSS comes with a new ADIRU standard
(among other new system standards), where the
AOA information is provided through the IRs and
not through the ADRs. This enables selecting all
ADRs off without loosing the Stall Warning
Protection.
......"
Not with a direct reference to this 60 kt value but from this information AoA sensing is not thru ADR and therefore not affected by any airspeed.
(apart from stall warning reference tables which depends on Mach in Alternate/Direct and solely on S/F setting during BUSS operation)
I am not aware of other system modifications e.g. when an airliner will not opt. for the BUSS (wouldn't that be stupid?)
Latest system enhancement to the BUSS is that FPV is available when BUSS is active.
Last edited by Jetdriver; 19th Mar 2013 at 00:33.
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But the STALL warning stopped already passing 350 on the way down and BUSS is not to be used above 250.
Also, if the BUSS is the solution, why is it not basic, or made mandatory, for all except the 380 ?
Interesting
Also, if the BUSS is the solution, why is it not basic, or made mandatory, for all except the 380 ?
Originally Posted by A33Zab
Latest system enhancement to the BUSS is that FPV is available when BUSS is active.
Keeping Danny in Sandwiches
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When will some bright manufacturer come up with a flight data "computed airspeed". We fly for thousands of hours at different heights, temps. and weights, with today's computer power it should be possible to take the raw EPR or N1 settings of the OPS Manuals, refine them with saved actual data and get a very accurate computed power setting that would make IAS almost a secondary indication of speed. Add to that the angle of attack indications and I suspect that what you would have would be comparable with today's IAS/Mach No but without the external data derived from pitot and static pressure.
That is after all what simulator systems actually do on a more basic level.
That is after all what simulator systems actually do on a more basic level.
Last edited by sky9; 18th Mar 2013 at 12:25.
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A33Zab
Some comments are made in the judiciary report on the BUSS and they're not that positive ... It is also said that its activation is definitive. You said otherwise here. Do you have more info ? I can't find anything in the documentation.
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@ CONF
But the STALL warning stopped already passing 350 on the way down and BUSS is
not to be used above 250.
not to be used above 250.
it requires also the FWC to be modified to filter and handle the IR AoA stall warning.
IIRC the highest ADR AoA is taken to trigger the stall warning and for IR AoA the median value is the one to trigger a stall warning.
Also, if the BUSS is the solution, why is it not basic, or made mandatory, for
all except the 380 ?
all except the 380 ?
A certain EIS 'CRT' mod level is also required to be able to display the BUSS image (EIS2 'LCD' is capable).
In fact you have the see both issues apart, BUSS requires the IR AoA but one can have IR AoA without the BUSS option.
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@ sky9
as already used in GE FADEC......
In some (not all) failure cases missing parameters are replaced by database values indexed by other available parameters.
This database is populated with values experienced during normal operation of the world wide fleet.
In some (not all) failure cases missing parameters are replaced by database values indexed by other available parameters.
This database is populated with values experienced during normal operation of the world wide fleet.
Last edited by A33Zab; 19th Mar 2013 at 08:27.
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@ CONF
Some comments are made in the judiciary report on the BUSS and they're not that
positive
positive
AFAIK BUSS activation comes with increased workload (e.g. ALT LAW and manual outflow valve control)
... It is also said that its activation is definitive. You said
otherwise here. Do you have more info ? I can't find anything in the
documentation.
otherwise here. Do you have more info ? I can't find anything in the
documentation.
Procedural it will be difficult to revert to the normal display because one selects the BUSS when ALL ADR FAULT or in case of ADR DISAGREE.
Without displayed air data information it will be a gamble to reselect an ADR with valid information.
Last edited by A33Zab; 19th Mar 2013 at 08:46.
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So part of the CVR was not included in the report? the bit where the Captain grumbles he only had one hour of sleep the night before, in Rio, and the two co-pilots had been enjoying the evening as well... that is shocking, looks like a coverup if they don't release the entire CVR.....
And how can CRM ensure that your colleagues are not short of sleep?
And how can CRM ensure that your colleagues are not short of sleep?
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A33Zab
Thanks for the informative replies.
From the report :
After using the BUSS on simulator, the experts have realized that
- the flying request a lot of attention
- the flying is tricky during a config change
- the system is not adapted for a long flight
I lack the french language so can not comment on that one.
AFAIK BUSS activation comes with increased workload (e.g. ALT LAW and manual outflow valve control)
AFAIK BUSS activation comes with increased workload (e.g. ALT LAW and manual outflow valve control)
After using the BUSS on simulator, the experts have realized that
- the flying request a lot of attention
- the flying is tricky during a config change
- the system is not adapted for a long flight
So part of the CVR was not included in the report?
the bit where the Captain grumbles he only had one hour of sleep the night before, in Rio, and the two co-pilots had been enjoying the evening as well... that is shocking, looks like a coverup if they don't release the entire CVR ...
And how can CRM ensure that your colleagues are not short of sleep?
My answer: it can't.
Company rules and the professional habits (or lack thereof) among the crew are how you make sure you get your rest before a flight.
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 19th Mar 2013 at 13:11.
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That CVR stuff is pure diversion. The tracks over the Atlantic would be empty if only well rested pilots could fly on them. One cannot just sleep on request before a flight. Long haul guys know exactly what I'm talking about.
Full FDR data are what the families need to put their hands on.
Full FDR data are what the families need to put their hands on.