Dear International Pilots, You Are Not Welcome In Europe
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Regarding IR lapsing after 7 years, you have to retake some of the ATPL / IR exam subjects etc. Also it questions those flying abroad on foreign validations from their European issued license. Clearly the situation of a pilot flying abroad a heavy jet with a valid multi IR was never considered.
Those renewing IR's that may have booked an examiner direct and used their own plane, will have to renew via a FTO. The rules state something along the lines of how much training / discretion by the FTO, versuses time lapsed in months / year of the IR rating. e.g. less than 3 months, FTO descretion and beyond required training of X hours before test.
Some could argue, those examiners who perhaps tested private owners, outside of FTO's could loose out financially.
Those that are applying for their first multi crew operator job who might do a 1.5hr sim and then test currently whilst paying off debts. May now find under the new rules, the FTO make them do a lot more time in the sim / aircraft, increasing the costs further, before signing them off to take the test.
The UK CAA has not opposed this to EASA or put forward any other proposals.
Those renewing IR's that may have booked an examiner direct and used their own plane, will have to renew via a FTO. The rules state something along the lines of how much training / discretion by the FTO, versuses time lapsed in months / year of the IR rating. e.g. less than 3 months, FTO descretion and beyond required training of X hours before test.
Some could argue, those examiners who perhaps tested private owners, outside of FTO's could loose out financially.
Those that are applying for their first multi crew operator job who might do a 1.5hr sim and then test currently whilst paying off debts. May now find under the new rules, the FTO make them do a lot more time in the sim / aircraft, increasing the costs further, before signing them off to take the test.
The UK CAA has not opposed this to EASA or put forward any other proposals.
Slightly off thread, but this attitude to 'foreign' licences from different agencies is nothing new.
Of course it doesn't affect me now, but during my working life I flew UK registered aircraft under IFR flight plans - and conditions ! - in and out and around New Zealand using my UK ATPL and I/R, but when I came to live here and attempted to convert my UK ATPL to a NZ one, I was told that a UK I/Rtg. was quote "not recognised", so I could only have a PPL.
My UK instrument was acceptable to fly around NZ in a UK registered a/c, so why is it any different if that registration is now NZ ? Just bureaucracy, but as I've said, nothing new.
I have every sympathy with those affected, best of luck chaps.
( P.s. I used to have a saying regarding my working conditions - quote " do it today 'cos tomorrow it will be worse " - sounds like it's still valid ! )
Of course it doesn't affect me now, but during my working life I flew UK registered aircraft under IFR flight plans - and conditions ! - in and out and around New Zealand using my UK ATPL and I/R, but when I came to live here and attempted to convert my UK ATPL to a NZ one, I was told that a UK I/Rtg. was quote "not recognised", so I could only have a PPL.
My UK instrument was acceptable to fly around NZ in a UK registered a/c, so why is it any different if that registration is now NZ ? Just bureaucracy, but as I've said, nothing new.
I have every sympathy with those affected, best of luck chaps.
( P.s. I used to have a saying regarding my working conditions - quote " do it today 'cos tomorrow it will be worse " - sounds like it's still valid ! )
Aviator Extraordinaire
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Well I guess the EU believes that they control the world, just look at the emissions charges that they are trying to make everyone pay, not just for flying in EU airspace but for all airspace from the departure point and after departing all the airspace to their next destination. Now this idiotic regulation.
Where does our goverment stand on this issue? Oh, sorry, stupid question. But somebody needs to tell the EU to stuff it, like the rest of the world. China and the US would make a great start.
Totalitarian bureaucracy run amok.
Where does our goverment stand on this issue? Oh, sorry, stupid question. But somebody needs to tell the EU to stuff it, like the rest of the world. China and the US would make a great start.
Totalitarian bureaucracy run amok.
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Truckflyer
20.000 pilots a year for the next 20 years?? !!!
I wonder where you got such hogwash stats! Not from aviation world reality, that's for sure!
20.000 pilots a year for the next 20 years?? !!!
I wonder where you got such hogwash stats! Not from aviation world reality, that's for sure!
Pilot and Technical Training Requirements
As the world commercial fleet expands to more than 39,500 airplanes over the next 20 years, the world's airlines will need to add 460,000 pilots and 650,000 maintenance technicians, both to fly and maintain the new airplanes and to replace current personnel who are due to retire during the period.
From the horses mouth, I got it wrong, it's not 20000 pilots it's 23000 - think before leap with your hogwash comments.
Maybe a little more research before you comment next time.
Safe flying
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A Real Shame
A little competition or protectionism is understandable. This is just outrageous.
I am so grateful for the training I got in the US. I had a PPL when I arrived there, and it cost me less than 10000 USD to get a CPL Multi/IR (more than 15 years ago). With my small budget, the US was the only option, I got a validation of my European PPL in ONE HOUR and for FREE (previous appointment required). It cost less than 50 USD to get ALL the ezam prep books for you studies. It cost me 900 Euros to get the whole written series from Bristol aviation....If it wasn'tfor the US, I'd be growing potatoes instead of flying planes.
But the best gift I got from this, is a license that never expires and is recognized worldwide (aside EU), as long as I keep flying and renew my medical, there is virtually nothing else to do.
Flying internationally now based outside Europe (first by necessity, then by choice), I will have to fork out money to maintain a JAR license, although I fly everyday for an airline with a different licensing system, on the same aircraft type.
It is not only penalizing the pilots from outside EU, but also all EU pilots who had to move abroad due to economic uncertainties in EU Land, and fly now on a different aviation authority.
Anyway even within JAR territory, there is so much crap still between countries, for example the French DGAC requires to apply for a license validation from another JAR member state in order to fly a french registered airplane...
, or you have to go to your country of (JAR) license issue in order to pass your English proficiency... Thank you EASA, you make my life complicated, and you cost me more money than it should, not to mention the insult it has become to international pilots, after reading this article.
Flex
I am so grateful for the training I got in the US. I had a PPL when I arrived there, and it cost me less than 10000 USD to get a CPL Multi/IR (more than 15 years ago). With my small budget, the US was the only option, I got a validation of my European PPL in ONE HOUR and for FREE (previous appointment required). It cost less than 50 USD to get ALL the ezam prep books for you studies. It cost me 900 Euros to get the whole written series from Bristol aviation....If it wasn'tfor the US, I'd be growing potatoes instead of flying planes.
But the best gift I got from this, is a license that never expires and is recognized worldwide (aside EU), as long as I keep flying and renew my medical, there is virtually nothing else to do.
Flying internationally now based outside Europe (first by necessity, then by choice), I will have to fork out money to maintain a JAR license, although I fly everyday for an airline with a different licensing system, on the same aircraft type.
It is not only penalizing the pilots from outside EU, but also all EU pilots who had to move abroad due to economic uncertainties in EU Land, and fly now on a different aviation authority.
Anyway even within JAR territory, there is so much crap still between countries, for example the French DGAC requires to apply for a license validation from another JAR member state in order to fly a french registered airplane...
, or you have to go to your country of (JAR) license issue in order to pass your English proficiency... Thank you EASA, you make my life complicated, and you cost me more money than it should, not to mention the insult it has become to international pilots, after reading this article.Flex
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Some 11 years ago, when I had to get the FAA A&P licence, the biggest problem for me as a European was not the technical knowledge (I already had an Irish AME licence and a JAR 66 B1), but to get a letter from an American operator to the FAA, which stated that I, as a foreigner, was required to maintain their aircraft and that no American national was available to do the job.
Mind, at this time I was working for a big American cargo airline on their European base, a fact which was at least known to the FAA field representative, who had to issue the certificate to allow me to take the exams.
I don´t think that the EASA put any of such obstacles in the way ( it is more likely up to the individual EU countries to regulate the access of non-EU citizens to their markets through labour laws, not through aviation laws).
Similarly I had American colleagues, who lived in Europe and were bitching about the fact that they had to get an EASA licence (or JAR licence at this time) to get a wellpaying job certifying for European aircraft (there are not too many maintence companies around in Europe where one can get a good job solely based on a FAA A&P licence).
At least they didn´t face obstacles like having to prove their need to get the European licence, they were just required to get their behinds into gear and take the exams.
Mind, at this time I was working for a big American cargo airline on their European base, a fact which was at least known to the FAA field representative, who had to issue the certificate to allow me to take the exams.
I don´t think that the EASA put any of such obstacles in the way ( it is more likely up to the individual EU countries to regulate the access of non-EU citizens to their markets through labour laws, not through aviation laws).
Similarly I had American colleagues, who lived in Europe and were bitching about the fact that they had to get an EASA licence (or JAR licence at this time) to get a wellpaying job certifying for European aircraft (there are not too many maintence companies around in Europe where one can get a good job solely based on a FAA A&P licence).
At least they didn´t face obstacles like having to prove their need to get the European licence, they were just required to get their behinds into gear and take the exams.
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Considering the recent purchase of TNT by UPS, I wonder what impact this ruling will have on the N registered UPS aircraft based in Europe.....
Mutt
Mutt
Last edited by mutt; 10th Apr 2012 at 21:38. Reason: Purchase of TNT not DHL.
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ADAMF
Exactly my point..
As Finals19 wrote :
Exactly the thought i tried to put across.
JAA has a standard,if you wanna enjoy the privileges of a EU license you simply have to do the work/sacrifice for it.
The SELECTION is the license.
In the US,the selection is experience and University degree.
Each system has its own ways.
In Europe you can fly with a waver such as Ryan Air for a year..can one go to the the USA and fly a year without a green card and FAA license for lets say South West Airlines???
Wrong, the Airline i operate for in China is recognized by the UK CAA and my IR remains current while I work here.
So you are in China, so what? Many of us work abroad
As Finals19 wrote :
I now work back in Europe and converted to the JAA (EASA) CPL/ME/IR. I went into it eyes wide open, and yes it cost me a significant amount. Its no good complaining about it - as others have said, it is what it is, its perfectly clear what is required. You have a choice.
JAA has a standard,if you wanna enjoy the privileges of a EU license you simply have to do the work/sacrifice for it.
The SELECTION is the license.
In the US,the selection is experience and University degree.
Each system has its own ways.
In Europe you can fly with a waver such as Ryan Air for a year..can one go to the the USA and fly a year without a green card and FAA license for lets say South West Airlines???
Wrong! If you don't keep current you will loose it all after seven years. Flying outside of easa will not count.
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De Facto,
Mate, with all due respect, that type of backward thinking is what created this sorry mess to begin with.
If we don't complain about the issue then it will never be improved.
If you encounter an operational problem on the job, do you just sit back and suck it as well?
Somehow I doubt that.
As I said earlier, you may not give a toss because the issue does not effect you. That's fine, I don't really give a dam. But for those of us that it does, well we can see a better way, and quite frankly we would like to see it come to fruition as it will benefit all of us in the long run.
Mate, with all due respect, that type of backward thinking is what created this sorry mess to begin with.
If we don't complain about the issue then it will never be improved.
If you encounter an operational problem on the job, do you just sit back and suck it as well?
Somehow I doubt that.
As I said earlier, you may not give a toss because the issue does not effect you. That's fine, I don't really give a dam. But for those of us that it does, well we can see a better way, and quite frankly we would like to see it come to fruition as it will benefit all of us in the long run.
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In Europe you can fly with a waver such as Ryan Air for a year..can one go to the the USA and fly a year without a green card and FAA license for lets say South West Airlines???
Mutt
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If we don't complain about the issue then it will never be improved
If you encounter an operational problem on the job, do you just sit back and suck it as well?
even with a Ryanair waiver, you needed the right to work in Europe.
Mutt
Mutt
just enough time to pass those 14 exams
Start reading chaps....CHOP CHOP
Last edited by de facto; 10th Apr 2012 at 10:27.
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That's not dealing with the issue, that is simply placating the muppets who pull the strings.
The study is no issue, the $30,000NZ needed to convert the licence, that is the issue.
The study is no issue, the $30,000NZ needed to convert the licence, that is the issue.
Thread Starter
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Weak argument
As a european, i went through all required exams to gain my JAA Atpl.All 14 exams and skill test.
My FAA ATPL granted me a ppl vfr just to start the groundschool.
Why would anyone else do otherwise,the standard is SET,if you want to hold a european license,do the work and stop bitc@@@@@@@
Most probably,however,ICAO holders still have a year exemption.
just enough time to pass those 14 exams
Start reading chaps....CHOP CHOP
My FAA ATPL granted me a ppl vfr just to start the groundschool.
Why would anyone else do otherwise,the standard is SET,if you want to hold a european license,do the work and stop bitc@@@@@@@
Most probably,however,ICAO holders still have a year exemption.
just enough time to pass those 14 exams
Start reading chaps....CHOP CHOP
De Facto,
you seem to be pretty full of yourself for passing those 14 exams. As you correctly state in a later post, it's a selection. Nothing more. In fact it's a selection that separates good rote-learners with lots of time on their hands from bad rote-learners with little time on their hands. That's all. I'm really sorry that you apparently feel this to be a factor for your job security.
More important, it's also a selection between people who have EUR 15.000 to convert their license, type ratings and instructors privileges and those who don't. From a standpoint of aviation-safety this second selection is about as relevant as the first one.
BTW: If you converted an FAA ATPL, as you claim, it should have been only 12 exams, because 91+92 are credited under JAR 1.016(a) conversions, at least in most countries, including Germany. Still: applause!
Unfortunately your argument in favor of the status quo is an intellectually very weak one. It boils down to: "I had to do it, so everybody else has to do it." That's plain silly, even if a case for the EASA-rule could me made on other grounds.
Anyway, if you read my article which iwrbf has linked, you notice that it's mainly about private pilots moving between systems due to job- or life-changes. And if you honestly think, that the current law is adequate or appropriate in these cases, then I would really like to know your reasoning.
best regards,
Jan Brill
Last edited by janbrill; 10th Apr 2012 at 14:05.
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100% correct.
I read the following article. Pilot und Flugzeug - Aktuelles - Dear International Pilots, You Are <u>Not Welcome</u> In Europe I though it was well written.
I especially liked the line about the author being able to fly for a living verses growing potatoes because his limited finances going much farther in the US. I think it is a good thing that many of us not born into nobility or extreme wealth have the opportunity to pilot aircraft. I think we, the taxpayer of the United States, made a fine investment in the author. I think his attitude and summary are perfectly correct.
Further I would have to agree with Capt Scribble contribution to the discussion, I reposted it in quotes below. I am afraid there is a very dark side to this movement. It will develop iron jaws and steel teeth.
I especially liked the line about the author being able to fly for a living verses growing potatoes because his limited finances going much farther in the US. I think it is a good thing that many of us not born into nobility or extreme wealth have the opportunity to pilot aircraft. I think we, the taxpayer of the United States, made a fine investment in the author. I think his attitude and summary are perfectly correct.
Further I would have to agree with Capt Scribble contribution to the discussion, I reposted it in quotes below. I am afraid there is a very dark side to this movement. It will develop iron jaws and steel teeth.
The aim of the EU is to weald total control of the population by imposing its undemoratic directives upon peoples and industries. The leaders are interested only in their own aims, those of the citizens do not count. We now have EASA which degrades the CAA to a gofor and paperwork executive. Now that this monolith is established local concerns do not have a chance of being aired. Citizens of the old USSR will recognise this regime immediately, sadly we missed killing it at birth.
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Competition for jobs Spicejitter? Lol, if only it were so, then perhaps we wouldn't worry about it. Europe requires so many pilots that the cadetships pass them out into the right seat of a 737 after 300 hours total time. Now that is a low hour pilot in a jet. Most Aussies don't get there until well after 1500 hours 
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Europe is a very bureaucratic part of the world, everything has to go through government and their fees. If you want a fishing license the season is over by the time you finish all the loops to get that stupid license. You are better off to fish illegally. In US you just go Walmart pay your 28 usd fee and you are in your way fishing. US is about how good you are in doing a job, EU is about you have a diploma or not and how you doing your job comes second place and that IF.