Article about lack of hand flying skills - FAA concerned

[bubbers44]

Denti, thanks for sharing that. It gives me a little more comfort sitting in the back knowing the right seat guy can fly too. What went wrong with AF447?

[Denti]

Good question, and one the whole aviation world either waits on holding their breath or allready has a fixed opinion about.

Anyway, just reread part of the last interim report and lack of experience in manual flight is something i cannot really see there, but probably lack of recent experience as that is not mentioned. The captain hat extensive experience in a lot of types without much automation, the youngest FO had a glider license and should have known about aircraft energy states and how that changes in a dynamic situation. The older FO renewed his SEP rating (in europe its only valid for some time and has to be renewed) in 2005.

All in all not that bad, and still it wasn't enough.

[beachbud]

Hi all, trying to locate the FAA draft of this report if anyone has the link.

[rottenray]

Oh boy, this thread is gonna give all those insufferable braggarts who go on and on about how great their hand flying is. Face it, the world has changed! Aviation philosophy has changed. There is certainly a place for hand flying...where no PRNAV procedures required and with planes without the modern automation, or bush flying.

Wow, bro.

That's sort of like saying there "is a place in basketball for a lay-up" or a place in swimming where you "hold your breath."

Do I have it right that you DON'T advocate training for basic handling skills.

LMK what airline you work for, so I can avoid them.

Ok, here goes.

Steve - most concise and informative, thank you very much.


Cheers!

[Desert185]

Bubbers44: Hand flying an airliner should be easy for all pilots. If it isn't easy you shouldn't be in the pilots seat. My sim check for my airline job they put me in the left seat of an Electra and had me do a single engine ILS with three shut down in an aircraft I had never flown in my life. Now they see if you can push the right buttons, apparently.

I felt very lucky to get that job because there were so many equally qualified pilots with many thousands of hours, a lot in jets trying to get that job. I do not know if the Electra had an autopilot but am sure they would not have let me use it. They were looking for pilots, not computer managers.

Old school capability and evaluation. Nice job. Hoorah.

[Desert185]

Denti: First off, i was writing about 200 hour (nowadays 80 hour) wonders out of in-house flight schools or company supervised flight schools.

How times have changed. I had ~5,000hrs when I obtained my first heavy/jet job (B-727 in the Middle East). Too many Vietnam vets to compete with back then.

The irony prior to that was that I was a CFI for one of those in-house pilot mills. They had the airline job I was aspiring to, and I was their flight instructor who was teaching them from scratch for the career I wanted. Decades later, I bumped into one of my early students on a Yokota train station. We were both captains. I was proud of both of us for our success and the effort expended by both of us to get to where we were. It was very gratifying to see that one of my students had done so well for himself.

Never give up...and pray for luck. You don't want your karma to overcome your dogma.

[galleypower]

Report wanted

I'm amazed how much is being discussed about te issue without anyone having seen the real report from the FAA. How come the newspapers get it, but not the targeted crowd.

[overun]

Desert185.

That is inspirational, what a story. For my part l rely on God looking after his idiots, and it`s worked so far !

[bubbers44]

desert185, I sympathize with you. My friends in the 70's were trying to get an airline job but couldn't because the military pilots we were instructing through Cessna Citation 500 type/atp courses were getting them all with us nursing them through the check ride. We finally all got those jobs too and are now retired. Persistence pays off. It is frustrating for a while.

We are now at the Reno Air Races and seeing the finest fly because they are great pilots, not because they fit a mold as before.

[overun]

lf, as suggested, there is a lack of handflying skills - Airbus lnd. we`re talking about - what is to be done ?

[Tee Emm]

we`re talking about - what is to be done ?

Dead easy. Pilots should be encouraged to hand fly climbs and descents on line as well turn off the flight directors and manually fly visual approaches. In addition, where practicable, switch off the autothrottles, especially on approach.. . That is all that is needed to restore pilot self confidence in their ability to fly the aircraft without the automatics to lean on. Of course this doesn't mean hours and hours of manual flying at high altitude. But disconnecting the automatics at 15,000 ft on descent or up to 15,000 ft on climb will do wonders for improving instrument scan and situational awareness. And don't give me that bollocks of manual flying overloading the PNF who simply has to keep his usual eye on the flight path and work the radios. If the PNF can't handle that work without panicking then he is in the wrong job.

The majority of keen pilots would welcome the opportunity to keep their hand in. Others who are just plain lazy will always find reasons not to.

[dkz]

@Tee Emm

It all comes to the area, you cannot go raw data at 15000 ft in FRA or MUC ... how can you perform a raw data rnav star ?!?

Also it may not be such a good idea in marginal visibility to do a raw data non precision ...

[Tmbstory]

Hand flying

Tee Emm:

In days gone by in the Falcon 10, we had an exercise to hand fly from take -off to top of climb (FL 410 ) and the reverse, from top of cruise down to the approach and manual landing. Sometimes I would cover the HSI with my hand and ask "what heading are you steering", some of the replies were nowhere near the actual heading. The exercise could be done easily, with little effort and some of the crews who originally were against the idea, came to like it and improved greatly.

One side effect that came home was that to get the required performance, to obtain the cruising level you had to be able to fly a constant heading and keep the wings level.

If an autopilot can do it, so can an ordinary pilot (with a bit of training ).

Lets hope the industry can get Manual flying skills to a level that is higher than at present.

Tmb

[Denti]

Of course you can not fly a true raw data rnav departure, but you can fly a non-FD manual rnav departure of course, even in MUC or FRA although if that is a good idea is somewhat different question. By the way, visual departures are still normal and every day used procedures in MUC, just listen in on clearance delivery instead of using CPDLC clearance.

And yes, low vis might not be the right place to fly raw data approaches, but to be honest, how many true low vis situations per year does a normal pilot encounter? Besides, manually flown CAT III approaches are a normal procedure as well, just not raw data.

But there are more than enough chances for any pilot to train his flying skills on the line in good conditions. both weather and traffic wise.

[overun]

Job done. Who`s going to tell the FAA ?

[usualguy]

airlines should give a free cessna 172 to each pilots they hire plus a house with a garage where they can park their plane. outside the privat runway. with all the money they saved with low salary, i think it s pay back time...

they may even ad a swiming pool and jaccuzy for parties and relax, the only thing they don't pay is the BBQ and ladies!

at least it would be fair that one day pilots see some money in their miserable life of regional pilots living like gypsies.

[Microburst2002]

Solution and Liability

ICAO should intervene, by means of an ammendment to Annex 6 part I.

If ICAO makes a recommendation that companies encourage hand flying, (under given circumstances and with a given frequency) so that pilots can maitain a reasonable skill, and also recommend that this skill is checked during sims, then the problem would be greatly solved, including any liability question.

Because ICAO would be the source, and hardly liable for any crash blamed on pilots unduly hand flying, Right?

What I know is was decently skilled in flying a jet (because I had the knowledge, the training and some practice) and it is difficult to keep it when They don't let me hand fly without having to beg and look like Tom Cruise in Top Gun.

When months have passed since my last raw data ILS and then I have a chance, after landing I feel OK because it went reasonably well. But then later I realise that I had to ask if we were cleared because I did not recall the clearance, and also I hadn't thought of many of the many variables I usually think of when I make automated approaches.

Situation awareness is greatly reduced when you have to hand fly and are not used to it. Meaning that the day an airplane loses automation it has a crew with reduced performance.

[Desert185]

MicroburstBecause ICAO would be the source, and hardly liable for any crash blamed on pilots unduly hand flying, Right?

Does a professional pilot really need a regulatory mandate to maintain the proficiency required as part of the job description, i.e. being a professional instrument pilot when systems fail? In fact, it's a sad state of affairs that this question even has to be asked.

Not a rhetorical question...

[Plectron]

Folks, first of all I was not talking at all about flying RNAV approaches or CAT IIIb approaches by hand - I am talking about getting an airplane on the ground in adverse circumstances such as a single engine diversion to a less than desirable alternate or landing in gusty crosswinds without resorting to the Autoland feature.

I am also not talking about rehabilitating someone who has lost his skills due to laziness or lack of opportunity. I am talking about "pilots" who never did learn, have no intention of doing so, cannot land in crosswinds, legally or otherwise, or competently shoot a visual approach. These are basic skills that should be mastered by anyone in any cockpit. Sadly, the worse the pilot is in the airplane, the more the strut and arrogance on the ground.

Grizzled veterans of the right seat of the longhaul B777 who object to talking about manual flying skills, you will probably get away with it for the most part. Jets are pretty forgiving and reliable. I just wonder how you sleep at night.

[RoyHudd]

Clarity

Some people here seem to be mixing visual flying skills with manual flying skills. Manual in IMC with an engine out, (or two), a hefty x-wind, and approach to minima need to be able to think, scan, AND handfly on instruments until decision. I am not sure handflying up to 15000 and down from 15000 is a great help. Sim checks my skills every 6 months, and needs to be passed.