Article about lack of hand flying skills - FAA concerned
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Article about lack of hand flying skills - FAA concerned
Now the public is also getting to know about this subject which has been worrying pilots:
AP IMPACT: Automation in the air dulls pilot skill - Yahoo! News
AP IMPACT: Automation in the air dulls pilot skill - Yahoo! News
Overall the article was pretty good even though it avoided discussing any specific solutions.
It should be noted that the Buffalo accident cited in the article is only the latest of a string of fatal crashes involving scrutiny of how business gets done at regional feeder airlines. There will be more. I'm gratified to see "Sully" still considered worthy of being quoted. I think the man really wants to do some good for pilots.
It should be noted that the Buffalo accident cited in the article is only the latest of a string of fatal crashes involving scrutiny of how business gets done at regional feeder airlines. There will be more. I'm gratified to see "Sully" still considered worthy of being quoted. I think the man really wants to do some good for pilots.
Presumably the big aircraft manufacturers are unconcerned about pilots loss of manual flying skills otherwise they would issue bulletins recommending solutions. Until that happens, regulators and operators will not change the status quo. It's called complacency.
Concerned...
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I don't believe that it is complacency. This is a challenging issue that defies easy answers. Automation is effective at the tedious job of handling the aircraft through hours of flight, monitoring multiple functions far better than the human can. The pilot's role moves from manipulator of the flight controls to a decision maker, and manager of the automation. However, the human is valued in the system for being able to detect and respond to unusual situations, and to catch automation failures. If the human can no longer fulfill the basic functions of flying the aircraft, that is a large concern. But how do we prevent the loss. Require the pilot to hand fly a certain number of sectors every month? Does that actually increase risk during those sectors? Increase simulator time?
Many pilots, such as myself, who enjoy the actual stick and rudder stuff, take up recreational flying as an outlet, but it also keeps the skills up. I fly gliders. I notice that Captain Pearson of Gimli glider fame, and Capt Sullenberger, of Hudson river fame also kept their skills up with glider flying.
Many pilots, such as myself, who enjoy the actual stick and rudder stuff, take up recreational flying as an outlet, but it also keeps the skills up. I fly gliders. I notice that Captain Pearson of Gimli glider fame, and Capt Sullenberger, of Hudson river fame also kept their skills up with glider flying.
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If you choose to use the auto-pilot all the time, I can gaurantee your skills will erode.
Any below average pilot can "fly" an auto-pilot and look passable as long as they do the minimum SOP's. Auto-pilots have their place, but if you don't choose to hand fly once in a while on a quiet sector, you are doing no one any favors. This ain't a hard job folks. hand fly your departures and arrivals when you can, push yourself just a little bit regularly, and its no big deal. If you never do it, you will have a tough time when you have to do it. Stop the whining, fly the plane! People spend more time screwing around with their mobiles than they do honing their skills that will benefit their carreers.
Any below average pilot can "fly" an auto-pilot and look passable as long as they do the minimum SOP's. Auto-pilots have their place, but if you don't choose to hand fly once in a while on a quiet sector, you are doing no one any favors. This ain't a hard job folks. hand fly your departures and arrivals when you can, push yourself just a little bit regularly, and its no big deal. If you never do it, you will have a tough time when you have to do it. Stop the whining, fly the plane! People spend more time screwing around with their mobiles than they do honing their skills that will benefit their carreers.
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C'est la Vie...?
Automation seems an all encompassing life trend for humanity. I love and hate it, but I accept it as inevitable - it has transformed my own 25 year career in the tech industry. I now install/patch and hope-it-does-what-its-supposed-to like nobody's business - yay 
Does it concern me that especially newer pointy enders are 'systems managers'? Sure, but again - it's the way forward so I won't waste time worrying about it. I just expect them to maintain the one thing humans must always maintain regardless of tech - common sense. Still serves me well.
One thing Boeing can do for me - next 737 please revise the gear or wing or something - my butt hurts
Does it concern me that especially newer pointy enders are 'systems managers'? Sure, but again - it's the way forward so I won't waste time worrying about it. I just expect them to maintain the one thing humans must always maintain regardless of tech - common sense. Still serves me well.
One thing Boeing can do for me - next 737 please revise the gear or wing or something - my butt hurts
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If you choose to use the auto-pilot all the time, I can guarantee your skills will erode
Too many operators take the decision out of the pilot's hands; either by formal SOPs outlawing handflying or by subtle disapproval of it. Of course, under-confident (read, under-able), commanders will not 'allow' their P2s to fly by hand. (Long ago, when an overworked management pilot, I flew far too little, perhaps once a month. My skills were eroded, but crucially, when I realised, I did more hand-flying, not less, and got back on top of things. I recovered my ability. I suspect many don't, or don't feel they can; I did, because I was 'management'!)
The 'choice' is more complex than you infer.
Years ago, aircraft crashed because pilots coudn't navigate them. The answer was EGPWS. Now, they crash because their pilots can't fly them.
What a tragedy that the opportunities presented of late for accident investigators to probe this have been dismissed through absence of competence or will (AF447 and its cousins, TK1951 and its cousins, etc).
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Hand flying a difficult approach after a 14 hour day is, IMHO, more dangerous then using the automatics to take the strain, as the PNF/PM/whatever you call the radio monkey is working much much harder. The PF should be just as busy whether the automatics are in or not.
The real problem is that as an industry the "regulators" seem to want to be able to extend the maximum allowable working day under the premise that these aeroplanes "fly themselves", then because we're so knackered at the end of the day, use the automatics to help us out, just look at the new EASA proposals! Vicious circle ensues..
Fatigue has the same effects on the human body as alcohol, and I bet if someone dropped you in the flightdeck after 5 pints and told you to land safely, you'd use the autopilot!
The real problem is that as an industry the "regulators" seem to want to be able to extend the maximum allowable working day under the premise that these aeroplanes "fly themselves", then because we're so knackered at the end of the day, use the automatics to help us out, just look at the new EASA proposals! Vicious circle ensues..
Fatigue has the same effects on the human body as alcohol, and I bet if someone dropped you in the flightdeck after 5 pints and told you to land safely, you'd use the autopilot!
I guess this will only get worse as RNP PBN approaches become more common. Hand flying the arrival and the approach is the most taxing on techincal ability and spatial awareness, and these approaches require the pilots to keep their mitts off.
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+ most airlines disapprove of pilots taking the auto pilot out at altitude (cruise) for 2 reasons. 1) RVSM req auto pilot 2) they worry about a level bust.
Unfortunately if you feel you need the practise at height so you have a go. The snitch box flags it (QAR) expect a phone call.
Please note I'm talking about upper air skills.
Unfortunately if you feel you need the practise at height so you have a go. The snitch box flags it (QAR) expect a phone call.
Please note I'm talking about upper air skills.
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I find the whole subject of Automation vs Manual very interesting. I'm not a commercial pilot, only a mere (43 yr old) PPL trainee. However, I joined the pharmaceutical industry as a process operator in the mid '90's. We were trained to understand everything about the equipment we operated. Every valve and switch was operated manually and the working day was one of constant decision making and "qualified judgement". Generally speaking it took five years to properly train as an efficient/safe operator and I believe this fact entirely having been there. As time progressed automation became more and more built into the system and we were no longer to required to "make decisions". Processing was done by computers,not humans. Not only did the job become incredibly boring but our skills eroded to the point that when a potential safety critical event occurred we we were under pressure to deal with it due to lack of practice. In short I ( speaking for myself) believe I was converted from a skilled, finely tuned individual to a dormant button pusher in period of less than 10 yrs. I wouldn't dream of applying the same label to the fine men and women that fly us safely from A to B every day, indeed I don't know much ( if anything) about their workload. However, based on a different type of experience I firmly believe over-relying on automation reduces the human capacity to react appropriately when put under unexpected pressure.
Last edited by AOB9; 30th Aug 2011 at 23:28.
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Opportunities to fly manually are especially limited at commuter airlines, where pilots may fly with the autopilot off for about 80 seconds out of a typical two-hour flight, Coffman said.
The airline manufactures don't give a **** about safety, pilots, or hand flying. What they care about is liability. Removing the pilot from the flight deck effectively removes the airline operator from the liability equation.
If you take a step back it's preposterous. There is this huge canopy of tens of thousands of commercial pilots, their training, the simulator manufactures...even an entire area of academic study (human factors management)...built upon the thin reed of 80 seconds of human activity. What a farce!
The airline manufacturers would kick the pilots to the curb in a heartbeat if they got some type of liability protection.
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As a result of some of the earlier comments here, I would say that the autopilot systems only improve efficiency, not safety.
I believe hand flying a departure or an approach is no less safe than any auto system.
Also, I remember when the pilots managed their time so that the pilot flying the approach would have some suitable short time for some 'rest' prior to the descent/approach, to partially offset the effects of 'the 14 hour day'..
...and don't think for a minute that I haven't been there!
Cheers.....
I believe hand flying a departure or an approach is no less safe than any auto system.
Also, I remember when the pilots managed their time so that the pilot flying the approach would have some suitable short time for some 'rest' prior to the descent/approach, to partially offset the effects of 'the 14 hour day'..
...and don't think for a minute that I haven't been there!
Cheers.....
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A lot of you are missing the essential point; a few minutes of hand-flying a departure or arrival isn't going to solve this problem! The real issue is that young pilots of today have so little experience of handling aircraft at the edge of their performance envelopes that they have nothing to fall back on when things go wrong.
The emerging thought is that Upset Recovery Training during initial training and at regular refresher training afterwards - relevant to the aircraft that they operate - is now vital.
The emerging thought is that Upset Recovery Training during initial training and at regular refresher training afterwards - relevant to the aircraft that they operate - is now vital.
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True. The problem must be solved right from the beginning: serious basic training. Too many FBOs (even big carrier academies) are not qualified and dilligent enough, spit out pilots too fast and they are sucked up by less than thorough small (or morally cheap) operators who very much like such cheap output selling their own grandmother just to go flying.
If we try to counteract once these pilots made their fast ascencion (through self paied ratings) to big airliners, it will be not only be a almost unsurmountable task concerning resources, but hit the resistance of the greedy and unscrupulous managers of today.
By the way, we warned of this erosion of skills some 20 years ago, just to be belittled, called cavemen and then duly ignored by the same fraction who now cry us down when we criticise the abscence of tactile feedback in modern aircraft.
We'll see each other again in a few years when another bunch of researchers, surveyors or other very intelligent and prevoyant men and women will have discovered these flaws! They will act just as surprised, sell their discoveries as absolutely revolutionary, take a lot of credit for that, the industry will resist as it does todays, citing costs. The protectionists of this kind of overautomation will first go into hiding only to emerge and pretend they always pointed out that danger, but the pilots, the only ones really capable and responsible of bringing up such problems as they operate the systems, did not speak up loud enough.
So once again they are to be blamed.....
If we try to counteract once these pilots made their fast ascencion (through self paied ratings) to big airliners, it will be not only be a almost unsurmountable task concerning resources, but hit the resistance of the greedy and unscrupulous managers of today.
By the way, we warned of this erosion of skills some 20 years ago, just to be belittled, called cavemen and then duly ignored by the same fraction who now cry us down when we criticise the abscence of tactile feedback in modern aircraft.
We'll see each other again in a few years when another bunch of researchers, surveyors or other very intelligent and prevoyant men and women will have discovered these flaws! They will act just as surprised, sell their discoveries as absolutely revolutionary, take a lot of credit for that, the industry will resist as it does todays, citing costs. The protectionists of this kind of overautomation will first go into hiding only to emerge and pretend they always pointed out that danger, but the pilots, the only ones really capable and responsible of bringing up such problems as they operate the systems, did not speak up loud enough.
So once again they are to be blamed.....
Last edited by Gretchenfrage; 31st Aug 2011 at 05:16.
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If one is taught proper to fly, one needn't worry about "Single Channel Cognition". Comes natural, and that's the idea.
The hands are not the problem, gents, tis the cabeza, and innate skills, with experience.
No one can fly w/o cueing, whether visual or dial. And with sufficient cueing, it ain't even hard....
Let us stop confusing "poor stick" with lack of repetition. Then there will be no need to "Train" for stuff that is not happening.
Sully had "0" time in the sim or real in 320 water landings.
The only resource a pilot will always have and the autos will not, is "Innovation". And that does not atrophy.
The hands are not the problem, gents, tis the cabeza, and innate skills, with experience.
No one can fly w/o cueing, whether visual or dial. And with sufficient cueing, it ain't even hard....
Let us stop confusing "poor stick" with lack of repetition. Then there will be no need to "Train" for stuff that is not happening.
Sully had "0" time in the sim or real in 320 water landings.
The only resource a pilot will always have and the autos will not, is "Innovation". And that does not atrophy.