Aer Lingus incident in SNN
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These 3 aircraft SLL,SLM,SLN have since arriving into Aer Arann being giving trouble and yes they are 4 bladed props rated to a high powered engine which the crews find hard to control on the flare. Maybe this factor and the conditions on the day what caused this anyhow nobody injured and all ok. As for the aircraft that will be another problem for the company.
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Watch the two videos and note the elevator positions in the latter part of the approach and just prior to nose wheel touchdown. No attempt has been made to hold the aircraft in the correct landing attitude.
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Whether a C152 of Airbus 380, crossing the threshold at the correct speed is the first requirement of a good landing.
With a hint of a good crosswind, the addition of excess speed over the threshold is where it all goes wrong.
With a hint of a good crosswind, the addition of excess speed over the threshold is where it all goes wrong.
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Whether a C152 of Airbus 380, crossing the threshold at the correct speed is the first requirement of a good landing. With a hint of a good crosswind, the addition of excess speed over the threshold is where it all goes wrong.
I wish I flew in theory all the time. I'd say the Ts&Cs are better in theory too. What's the pension like there?
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16,000 hours in the north of the U.K is a little more than theory.
There is a right way and a wrong way. Rest assured I know the right way.
Get it wrong and the nose wheel goes....
There is a right way and a wrong way. Rest assured I know the right way.
Get it wrong and the nose wheel goes....
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Propburner said
Robin, with due deference to your experience the ATR isn't a C152. If this incident and the videos prove anything it's that certain ATRs have issues with the flare. You should chat to ATR pilots first. I know a few now and they all have interesting tales.
4 bladed props rated to a high powered engine which the crews find hard to control on the flare.
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Well, if the nose gear gets the sort of treatment shown in those videos occasionally, it has got to fail at some point unless that gear is rather strong.
And considering that the weather that day was somewhat similar to that shown on the videos (regarding wind at least) maybe it was a bit too much stress for the nose gear to handle.
And considering that the weather that day was somewhat similar to that shown on the videos (regarding wind at least) maybe it was a bit too much stress for the nose gear to handle.
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"Well, if the nose gear gets the sort of treatment shown in those videos occasionally, it has got to fail at some point unless that gear is rather strong."Yes i agree,and this is not
an ATR/AerArann issue only.
On the 72 a hard landing reported by the crew is a straight forward job:
Check of hard landing indicators on each MLG,read the FDAU datas and follow the
job card.But for the nose landing gear is no device on board to verify/detect a hard landing.
"4 bladed props rated to a high powered engine which the crews find hard to control on the flare."Sorry,never heard about this.And:The 2 videos showing 72-500,means
6 blade propeller...
an ATR/AerArann issue only.
On the 72 a hard landing reported by the crew is a straight forward job:
Check of hard landing indicators on each MLG,read the FDAU datas and follow the
job card.But for the nose landing gear is no device on board to verify/detect a hard landing.
"4 bladed props rated to a high powered engine which the crews find hard to control on the flare."Sorry,never heard about this.And:The 2 videos showing 72-500,means
6 blade propeller...
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as regards over the threshold at Vapp... that's all very good in theory, but in this sort of situation, Vapp over threshold with windshear about could cause such a landing as in question! (even with windshear speeds applied)
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AAIU Preliminary Report out...
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Interesting how the tower appeared to predict that there might be an accident on the second approach. Is it known if the tower passes this information onto the crew advising them that they believed that the initial approach and landing was hard enough for them to believe the integrity of the airframe was compromised?
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Shades of a similar accident in SNN about 12 years ago. Strong gusty winds, large nose down input, alarming negative pitch attitude, nose wheel moving rearward. The same mistakes destined to be repeated over and over again?
Air Accident Investigation UnitFull List of Reports
Air Accident Investigation UnitFull List of Reports
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Guys, are you kidding me.
I'm sorry but nobody seems to see the elephant in the room here. The prevailing conditions could and should have been handled by a PPL holder with 20 hours.
There were fare paying pax in the back and this outfit chose to crew a new captain and a brand new FO at the pointy end. Utter contempt for safety.
And how the devil has the captain, who was pilot flying, being allowed to continue to fly in the absence of a prelimerary report. No airline (unless third world) would allow a pilot to continue to fly after such a serious incidient until at least the facts were established.
I hear to my horror that this pilot has been flying pax as a captain in the left seat for the past few weeks. Is AerLingus regional serious!! Gobsmacked. Do the pax know that they are potentially not insured. Does Aer Lingus Regional care. Are AerLingus Regional insured to do this. What if this pilot has another incidient before the preliminary report is published.
What a bunch of cowboys. Where are the IAA. Why do we have regulation if this is there input
Gobsmaked - truely gobsmaked
I'm sorry but nobody seems to see the elephant in the room here. The prevailing conditions could and should have been handled by a PPL holder with 20 hours.
There were fare paying pax in the back and this outfit chose to crew a new captain and a brand new FO at the pointy end. Utter contempt for safety.
And how the devil has the captain, who was pilot flying, being allowed to continue to fly in the absence of a prelimerary report. No airline (unless third world) would allow a pilot to continue to fly after such a serious incidient until at least the facts were established.
I hear to my horror that this pilot has been flying pax as a captain in the left seat for the past few weeks. Is AerLingus regional serious!! Gobsmacked. Do the pax know that they are potentially not insured. Does Aer Lingus Regional care. Are AerLingus Regional insured to do this. What if this pilot has another incidient before the preliminary report is published.
What a bunch of cowboys. Where are the IAA. Why do we have regulation if this is there input
Gobsmaked - truely gobsmaked
Last edited by accelalt; 24th Aug 2011 at 20:29.
The prevailing conditions could and should have been handled by a PPL holder with 20 hours.
I'm not suggesting this isn't a serious incident, nor am I excusing the crew, but I know what conditions were like on that day. I flew into SNN that day and have landed Boeings at SNN dozens of times in those conditions. It's never easy because of the peculiar winds on short final and around the TDZ. I've seen 20,000 hour Captains relieved to be on the ground safely in those conditions.
Having said all that, I have little faith in the IAA's ability to regulate the Irish Aviation Industry properly.
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I tend to agree with most of what " accelalt" has said but lets be direct here, a PPl would not of succeeding in landing an aircraft here.
Regardless of the hangars position which we know would cause low level shear, the wind speeds were within the limits of the aircraft.
Secondly, a as a professional crew they {PF} should not of been trying to land beyond the touch down point. If they were uncomfortable with the conditions / or unable to handle those conditions prevailing, after the first approach a diversion should of being considered.
Thirdly, from "accelalt" post when he referred to the crew still operating within the airline I do question the managements’ decision within Aer Arran to allow this without even the prelim report being published.
Closing comments, I think the name of this topic is misleading when referring to "Aer lingus" incident and should be edited for clarification. Yes there were operating in EI colours but the airline and crew was indeed Aer Arran.
P.S, I find it strange that gust limits are not taking into account when conditions are near the limits.
Lastly the IAA need to me more pro-active within there safety division. If they have one ? !!
Regardless of the hangars position which we know would cause low level shear, the wind speeds were within the limits of the aircraft.
Secondly, a as a professional crew they {PF} should not of been trying to land beyond the touch down point. If they were uncomfortable with the conditions / or unable to handle those conditions prevailing, after the first approach a diversion should of being considered.
Thirdly, from "accelalt" post when he referred to the crew still operating within the airline I do question the managements’ decision within Aer Arran to allow this without even the prelim report being published.
Closing comments, I think the name of this topic is misleading when referring to "Aer lingus" incident and should be edited for clarification. Yes there were operating in EI colours but the airline and crew was indeed Aer Arran.
P.S, I find it strange that gust limits are not taking into account when conditions are near the limits.
Lastly the IAA need to me more pro-active within there safety division. If they have one ? !!
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Mikehotel152
No, I am not a test pilot. I am a regular pax out of DUB.
The conditions at Shannon were well within the limits of an ATR and I certainly landed in similar conditions many times at weston. The X wind limit for an ATR 72 on a dry runway is demonstrated at 35 knots. The crew are supposed to apply 1/3 of the headwind to a max of 15 to the no wind Vapp speed, OR 1.1 Vmca, which ever is greater for the Vapp 50 feet over the treshold. (cockpit.com Fcom)
In gusty wind conditions, the mean of the gust or all of the gust, which ever is higher, to a max of 15 knots.
You are either within the demonstrated limits of the a/c or you are not.
If not within limits - simple, you go around. You dont wait till you are crashing nose wheel first into the runway till you decide.
If windsheer is encountered, SOP's say power to the ramp, pitch up 10 degrees and do not raise landing gear till a postive climb of more than 5 seconds is achieved. (ATR typerated friend)
None of the above was implemented by this crew.
There are two limits on every a/c
1 - the ones the manufacturer set
2 - the pilots own personal limits.
The a/c should be flown to the lesser of the two.
I have flown twice last week to the UK and this Captain potentially could have flown me. It is an utter discrace, and a derliction of responsibility on behalf of the regulator, that this was allowed to happen. I have many friends in the airline industry, and they are all gobsmaked that a pilot involved in such a serious incidient was allowed to continue to operate, as the Captain, while an investigation was ongoing. What kind of a training department has this organisation got. This is not horse racing - take a fall and get back up as quick as you can!!. I am absolutely livid and will not travel with them again. I am personally writing to Air Lingus asking for an explanation.
BTW - I purchase my ticket from Aer Lingus, not Aer Arann. The cabin crew are dressed in an Aer Lingus uniform, not Aer Arann and the announcement when I get on board is on behalf of Aer Lingus. -- Aer Lingus mate.
No, I am not a test pilot. I am a regular pax out of DUB.
The conditions at Shannon were well within the limits of an ATR and I certainly landed in similar conditions many times at weston. The X wind limit for an ATR 72 on a dry runway is demonstrated at 35 knots. The crew are supposed to apply 1/3 of the headwind to a max of 15 to the no wind Vapp speed, OR 1.1 Vmca, which ever is greater for the Vapp 50 feet over the treshold. (cockpit.com Fcom)
In gusty wind conditions, the mean of the gust or all of the gust, which ever is higher, to a max of 15 knots.
You are either within the demonstrated limits of the a/c or you are not.
If not within limits - simple, you go around. You dont wait till you are crashing nose wheel first into the runway till you decide.
If windsheer is encountered, SOP's say power to the ramp, pitch up 10 degrees and do not raise landing gear till a postive climb of more than 5 seconds is achieved. (ATR typerated friend)
None of the above was implemented by this crew.
There are two limits on every a/c
1 - the ones the manufacturer set
2 - the pilots own personal limits.
The a/c should be flown to the lesser of the two.
I have flown twice last week to the UK and this Captain potentially could have flown me. It is an utter discrace, and a derliction of responsibility on behalf of the regulator, that this was allowed to happen. I have many friends in the airline industry, and they are all gobsmaked that a pilot involved in such a serious incidient was allowed to continue to operate, as the Captain, while an investigation was ongoing. What kind of a training department has this organisation got. This is not horse racing - take a fall and get back up as quick as you can!!. I am absolutely livid and will not travel with them again. I am personally writing to Air Lingus asking for an explanation.
BTW - I purchase my ticket from Aer Lingus, not Aer Arann. The cabin crew are dressed in an Aer Lingus uniform, not Aer Arann and the announcement when I get on board is on behalf of Aer Lingus. -- Aer Lingus mate.
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No accelalt, Your Wrong.
Its Aer Arann, Not an aer lingus incident.
Yes the airline was in aer lingus colours, the crew may have been in aer lingus uniform but indeed they are employed by aer arann.
The findings of this incident will require the airline " AER ARANN" to take corrective action to there operation . Not Aer lingus.
N.B . its AER lingus , not AIR lingus. mate!
Its Aer Arann, Not an aer lingus incident.
Yes the airline was in aer lingus colours, the crew may have been in aer lingus uniform but indeed they are employed by aer arann.
The findings of this incident will require the airline " AER ARANN" to take corrective action to there operation . Not Aer lingus.
N.B . its AER lingus , not AIR lingus. mate!
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a Pumps
I mentioned Aer Lingus 5 times and got it wrong once.
When I travel, I buy my ticket from Aer Lingus. I am not made aware of any involvment by Aer Arann until I see their crocky little pieces of crap that have been granted an AOC by the IAA. If it were not for the fact that I must travel for work, I wouldnt get on board and until I recieve an explanation from AER Lingus re my post above, I will not travel with them on the route again.
Good luck
I mentioned Aer Lingus 5 times and got it wrong once.
When I travel, I buy my ticket from Aer Lingus. I am not made aware of any involvment by Aer Arann until I see their crocky little pieces of crap that have been granted an AOC by the IAA. If it were not for the fact that I must travel for work, I wouldnt get on board and until I recieve an explanation from AER Lingus re my post above, I will not travel with them on the route again.
Good luck