Tiger Australia grounded by CASA
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Now if you're (for example) RBS, with five aircraft on lease there, you are likely thinking about "what if...?" possibilities - but the fact remains that RBS, GECAS and Macquarie still have valid lease contracts with a non-bankrupt airline, so they will (understandably) expect to keep getting paid.
If Tiger wants to send the aircraft somewhere else (ie sublease to another carrier in the short term) to offset their costs, that's another matter (and subject to lessor approval).
Ricfly747 - you hit the nail on the head. For Australians to digest that they did not invent flying, are not the best pilots, not the best Air Traffic controllers, not the best maintenance crew is just simply too much for them to comprehend. Yup they more or less have never lost a hull. A bit less than more. So they will continue to show the world that they are the best. A bit like their cricket and rugby teams!
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Ricfly747, CDRW,
You have to remember that Australian aviation is like Australian wildlife, it has developed differently and is inhabited by creatures generally pretty venomous.
If you look at DG&P you will find the only forums where pilots of a single nation repeatedly accuse each other of being unsafe:
Tiger Airways, JetStar, Qantas you name it the airline is accused by the general pilot community of unsafe practices. Cadet Pilots, Third Party Maintenance, any LCC- all unsafe!
What any pragmatic sane nation would see as 'thats life sh!t happens lets all learn from it and move on'. is unsafe, dangerous, ban, ground, sack we are all going to die!
If Tiger Australia (manned by Aussie skygods) is unsafe just think what any airline run. crewed, regulated by Asians must be like, or even worse Pommie or Irish management who for some reason induce the skygods into flying like morons, and the engineers to don boxing gloves before carrying out the simplest maintenance action.
The really nasty thing is that there appears to be a wish to destroy Tiger Airways Singapore as well. Different company, different people, different regulator.
There are lies damned lies and statistics, statistically Qantas have not written of a jet hull, as they chose to rebuild them around a single original rivet to preserve the myth. Lots of other airlines have never written off a jet but you don't see them all claiming to be the safest bar none. It seems that they are almost paralysed by the fear of not being no 1. The overall Australian statistics are just pretty average with GA (who they seem to think are the best pilots to fly airliners) doing very averagely.
Remember these are people who just will not cross a road until the green man comes on to say it is 'safe'and will throw rocks at those who do.
I am sure we could all recount a few ' Oz Skygod' stories if we wished!
Rant over,
You have to remember that Australian aviation is like Australian wildlife, it has developed differently and is inhabited by creatures generally pretty venomous.
If you look at DG&P you will find the only forums where pilots of a single nation repeatedly accuse each other of being unsafe:
Tiger Airways, JetStar, Qantas you name it the airline is accused by the general pilot community of unsafe practices. Cadet Pilots, Third Party Maintenance, any LCC- all unsafe!
What any pragmatic sane nation would see as 'thats life sh!t happens lets all learn from it and move on'. is unsafe, dangerous, ban, ground, sack we are all going to die!
If Tiger Australia (manned by Aussie skygods) is unsafe just think what any airline run. crewed, regulated by Asians must be like, or even worse Pommie or Irish management who for some reason induce the skygods into flying like morons, and the engineers to don boxing gloves before carrying out the simplest maintenance action.
The really nasty thing is that there appears to be a wish to destroy Tiger Airways Singapore as well. Different company, different people, different regulator.
There are lies damned lies and statistics, statistically Qantas have not written of a jet hull, as they chose to rebuild them around a single original rivet to preserve the myth. Lots of other airlines have never written off a jet but you don't see them all claiming to be the safest bar none. It seems that they are almost paralysed by the fear of not being no 1. The overall Australian statistics are just pretty average with GA (who they seem to think are the best pilots to fly airliners) doing very averagely.
Remember these are people who just will not cross a road until the green man comes on to say it is 'safe'and will throw rocks at those who do.
I am sure we could all recount a few ' Oz Skygod' stories if we wished!
Rant over,
Last edited by Major Cleve Saville; 7th Jul 2011 at 13:16.
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At last someone with some common sense,
Read more: Tiger pilots relied on plane's false computer data
Meanwhile, the pilots' union said yesterday the competence of Tiger pilots was being unfairly called into question by the airline's grounding.
The Australian Federation of Air Pilots' industrial relations manager, Lawrie Cox, said the union was angry that pilots were being implicated in the grounding. ''We have professional pilots out there, they are experienced, they have met the criteria,'' Mr Cox said.
''Having the regulator come out and say it's risky to fly on this airline is an appalling statement and totally unacceptable.''
Mr Cox said that ill-informed comment from inside the aviation industry was also unhelpful.
The Australian Federation of Air Pilots' industrial relations manager, Lawrie Cox, said the union was angry that pilots were being implicated in the grounding. ''We have professional pilots out there, they are experienced, they have met the criteria,'' Mr Cox said.
''Having the regulator come out and say it's risky to fly on this airline is an appalling statement and totally unacceptable.''
Mr Cox said that ill-informed comment from inside the aviation industry was also unhelpful.
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This company is facing possibly bankruptcy. They might not see their money. I would be searching for a new lessee quickly.
the leasing company is sitting pretty.
It is however not uncommon for a leasing company to be quietly touting airframes around select carriers and brokers in the weeks leading up to an airlines bankruptcy
I imagine the leasing company will have people deployed to Australia to check and secure the maintenance records just in case.
Care to elaborate Doors ? I only ask because from down here it seems that basically from day 1, the management side of Tiger Aust has been a shoddy operation all round, both from a commercial and operational point of view.
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I'm surprised no-one appears to have spotted the very strong links between Tiger & Ryanasia & Ryanair ( ie Declan Ryan, son of Tony, Irelandia majority holder of Ryanair) yet.
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/Thaicorporate-conference/files/Declan_Ryan.pdf
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/Thaicorporate-conference/files/Declan_Ryan.pdf
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pulling the chookhouse down
Doors,
I have a little difficulty with the picture you paint.
TD set it up and remained responsible for both the management systems and the management culture that was in place. There has been absolutely no noise about CR undoing anything that was already in place and, in any event, if he had unwound some of the systems and culture TD would have heard about it in a heartbeat.
I do not think it is unreasonable to conclude that the currently identified problems were inherent and that time finally caught up with the Tiger model employed here (and undoubtedly in SIN).
I have a little difficulty with the picture you paint.
TD set it up and remained responsible for both the management systems and the management culture that was in place. There has been absolutely no noise about CR undoing anything that was already in place and, in any event, if he had unwound some of the systems and culture TD would have heard about it in a heartbeat.
I do not think it is unreasonable to conclude that the currently identified problems were inherent and that time finally caught up with the Tiger model employed here (and undoubtedly in SIN).
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The paper chart stipulated a minimum altitude of 2500 feet but the computer erroneously gave 2000 feet as the minimum, investigators from the Australian Transport Safety Bureau have revealed in a preliminary report into the June 7 incident.
According to the preliminary report, a cross-checking of the computer and flight-chart data failed to pick up the disparity. The co-pilot at one stage queried the lower altitude but the captain confirmed it by referring to the flight computer.
Don't these guys perform briefings before landing?
Don't they compare their charted approach patterns with the ones given by FMGC?
I can't believe SOP's would allow a pilot to fly below a chartered safety altitude by referring primarily to the computer...
Also, when in doubt (specially when flying low!) one chooses the safer altitude, not the lower. Some call it: common sense.
Others call it also: Professionalism.
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Beg Tibs,
Time to grow up, act like adults and take personal responsibility. If I/we screw up I/we screw up, stop blaming everyone else for our/your mistakes.
If you say its the training then who is doing the training if not ...... other Australian pilots?
As pilots (adults) we need the discipline to keep learning without having to be dependent on others to direct us. Do you really need extra special training to maintain a cleared altitude? Know when or not to descend below an MSA?
I suspect one crew may have been caught out by the use of FINAL APP mode, but I will wait for the final report.
Time to grow up, act like adults and take personal responsibility. If I/we screw up I/we screw up, stop blaming everyone else for our/your mistakes.
If you say its the training then who is doing the training if not ...... other Australian pilots?
As pilots (adults) we need the discipline to keep learning without having to be dependent on others to direct us. Do you really need extra special training to maintain a cleared altitude? Know when or not to descend below an MSA?
I suspect one crew may have been caught out by the use of FINAL APP mode, but I will wait for the final report.
Last edited by Major Cleve Saville; 9th Jul 2011 at 00:25.
What's up Major? - Get knocked back on your attempt to come to Australia on a ****haus contract?
We may/may not be 'skygods' but I'd like to remind you no one here has (so far ) killed a few hundred people on a jet.
The fact that Australian airline management are 'importing' bull****e 'management practices' from your Irish/English/European 'best practices' by 'skimping on the pate' such as fancy resources like pilot training, safety departments staffed by pilots, EXPERIENCE etc has nothing to do with Australian aviators taking 'personal responsibility' for safety and operations - they are the last line of defense that prevents the cost-cutting, LCC 'wet dream' from becoming a human tragedy not yet seen in this country.
We may/may not be 'skygods' but I'd like to remind you no one here has (so far ) killed a few hundred people on a jet.
The fact that Australian airline management are 'importing' bull****e 'management practices' from your Irish/English/European 'best practices' by 'skimping on the pate' such as fancy resources like pilot training, safety departments staffed by pilots, EXPERIENCE etc has nothing to do with Australian aviators taking 'personal responsibility' for safety and operations - they are the last line of defense that prevents the cost-cutting, LCC 'wet dream' from becoming a human tragedy not yet seen in this country.
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Oriana,
Yes I would love to come and work in Australia for the following reasons:
Pay: Third world pay, hang on, I could earn more in the third world forget that.
Great airlines: except for Tiger and Jetstar apparently. Ah Qantas that sounds like a great expanding airline - lots of opportunity there then!
What about Virgin, no been warned off Sir Richard Branson is a Pom so imported;
Virgin Airways has just got to have a worse safety record than any Oz airline, right?
Lifestyle: I could get to live in SYD BNE MEL PER, ah but those are some of the most expensive cities in the world, so maybe not, especially on that sub third world pay.
Well goverened though as socialist, high taxing nanny states go: 'gotta follow all those bloody rules mate'.
Never crashed a jet, except for the odd B747, so never had a fatal Jet accident, turbo-props yes, so turbo-prop passenger lives in Australia don't matter? Better not fly on anything but a Jet, except for Jetstar or Tiger or Virgin (remember those euro bull****e practices). I will start saving up for Qantas (oh but haven't they been slated in the Aussie press for safety issues too - oh well I will ignore that), might be a while, nearly forgot that third world pilot's pay, high cost of living, high tax and high airfares
Seems to me no low cost/ no frills airlines can operate safely in 'other parts of the globe' (places with much worse operating environments than Oz) with good regulation, well structured relevant training, excellent safety management systems, well controlled maintenance etc etc. (Not that I want to work for any of them). Is it a LCC problem is it something else.......
I do feel extremely sorry for the crew(s) involved in the two Tiger incidents, already blamed by their peers for grounding an entire airline, without even a fair hearing/ final report yet.
Another reason for being soooooo desperate to work in Oz; The open safety culture, definately no culture of blame there.....
I submit!! You have really got it all sorted downunda, no worries, all good .....
Yes I would love to come and work in Australia for the following reasons:
Pay: Third world pay, hang on, I could earn more in the third world forget that.
Great airlines: except for Tiger and Jetstar apparently. Ah Qantas that sounds like a great expanding airline - lots of opportunity there then!
What about Virgin, no been warned off Sir Richard Branson is a Pom so imported;
bull****e 'management practices' from your Irish/English/European 'best practices' by 'skimping on the pate
Lifestyle: I could get to live in SYD BNE MEL PER, ah but those are some of the most expensive cities in the world, so maybe not, especially on that sub third world pay.
Well goverened though as socialist, high taxing nanny states go: 'gotta follow all those bloody rules mate'.
Never crashed a jet, except for the odd B747, so never had a fatal Jet accident, turbo-props yes, so turbo-prop passenger lives in Australia don't matter? Better not fly on anything but a Jet, except for Jetstar or Tiger or Virgin (remember those euro bull****e practices). I will start saving up for Qantas (oh but haven't they been slated in the Aussie press for safety issues too - oh well I will ignore that), might be a while, nearly forgot that third world pilot's pay, high cost of living, high tax and high airfares
Seems to me no low cost/ no frills airlines can operate safely in 'other parts of the globe' (places with much worse operating environments than Oz) with good regulation, well structured relevant training, excellent safety management systems, well controlled maintenance etc etc. (Not that I want to work for any of them). Is it a LCC problem is it something else.......
I do feel extremely sorry for the crew(s) involved in the two Tiger incidents, already blamed by their peers for grounding an entire airline, without even a fair hearing/ final report yet.
Another reason for being soooooo desperate to work in Oz; The open safety culture, definately no culture of blame there.....
I submit!! You have really got it all sorted downunda, no worries, all good .....