RYR taxi with towbar in LPL
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I can fully understand those kind of things happening, and iīt will happend again.
Some operators relay so much on SOPīs and are so comprehensive that pilot and other crews canīt think by them self anymore.
Itīs a human factor and very nature. A human brain is not constructed to be told to work as a robot or like a tape recorder. When this happens, the brain will stop thinking by it self, and will mislead to do strange things.
Have been commander for over 10 years on B727 and B737 CL and NG.
Was in FR for a period of time. And it does not surprise me that strange thingīs can happen there.
FR and other UK companys has a culture of doing thingīs after procedures that are so detailed not alowing human to think by them self anymore.
Itīs a culture you canīt change, when pilotīs are getting there commands in a very short period. Eventhough thay are god in SOPīs and operate the aircraft, thay donīt have the ammount of experince requried after just 3 years in aviation.
Some operators think by creating comprehensive SOPīs, thay can make anyone to be a commander after 3 years.
And last, SOPīs are importend to flight safety, but must not overrule the human mind to stop thinking by itīs self.
Some operators relay so much on SOPīs and are so comprehensive that pilot and other crews canīt think by them self anymore.
Itīs a human factor and very nature. A human brain is not constructed to be told to work as a robot or like a tape recorder. When this happens, the brain will stop thinking by it self, and will mislead to do strange things.
Have been commander for over 10 years on B727 and B737 CL and NG.
Was in FR for a period of time. And it does not surprise me that strange thingīs can happen there.
FR and other UK companys has a culture of doing thingīs after procedures that are so detailed not alowing human to think by them self anymore.
Itīs a culture you canīt change, when pilotīs are getting there commands in a very short period. Eventhough thay are god in SOPīs and operate the aircraft, thay donīt have the ammount of experince requried after just 3 years in aviation.
Some operators think by creating comprehensive SOPīs, thay can make anyone to be a commander after 3 years.
And last, SOPīs are importend to flight safety, but must not overrule the human mind to stop thinking by itīs self.
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And last, SOPīs are importend to flight safety, but must not overrule the human mind to stop thinking by itīs self.
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Well, as mentioned before i have been in FR as commander. With over 20 years of experince in avitation, FR will not be an option for me no matter what. Will not be just another monkey in a cockpitt working under there terms and leave my brain home and not alowing me to think..
Itīs fine if any can work under these conditionīs, but donīt call you self a pilot anymore - Call your self an operator..
Im working today for a airliner that know how to operate there aircraft safe with a god enviromental order where you can think again.
There is a lot of guys here that dont have any exsperince, but do sound thay have. To you fellow aviators, find a job and get some exsperince before you start to teach what is right and wrong - Because there is no right and wrong answers. We old ****ers like to express exsperince with no right and wrong..
Get itī ? :-))
Itīs fine if any can work under these conditionīs, but donīt call you self a pilot anymore - Call your self an operator..
Im working today for a airliner that know how to operate there aircraft safe with a god enviromental order where you can think again.
There is a lot of guys here that dont have any exsperince, but do sound thay have. To you fellow aviators, find a job and get some exsperince before you start to teach what is right and wrong - Because there is no right and wrong answers. We old ****ers like to express exsperince with no right and wrong..
Get itī ? :-))
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@boeingflyer post 46
you hit the points ! couldn't agree more
the today's outcome of the good, old SOP's is now in too much airlines just only
Stupid Operating Procedures
you hit the points ! couldn't agree more
the today's outcome of the good, old SOP's is now in too much airlines just only
Stupid Operating Procedures
Ah, just as with any FR related thread, this one has turned into the usual chaos. 
Firstly, this notion that FR's SOPs are a bad thing is nonsensical. You have to admit it, their safety record is excellent notwithstanding the high aircraft cycles, crew sectors and the employment of inexperienced cadets.
And what's the concern about 25 min turnarounds?!
It's easy when you do 3 a day for month after month after month...
You can't lay the blame for this incident at the feet of the SOP culture when the 'facts' suggest that it was a incident caused by a brainfart perpetrated by groundcrew which would not have been picked up by 99% of pilots.
happens.
Firstly, this notion that FR's SOPs are a bad thing is nonsensical. You have to admit it, their safety record is excellent notwithstanding the high aircraft cycles, crew sectors and the employment of inexperienced cadets.
And what's the concern about 25 min turnarounds?!
It's easy when you do 3 a day for month after month after month...You can't lay the blame for this incident at the feet of the SOP culture when the 'facts' suggest that it was a incident caused by a brainfart perpetrated by groundcrew which would not have been picked up by 99% of pilots.
happens.
Back at link 31 we were told that the incident occured because the tow bar broke free from the tug and rolled in front of the main gear as the aircraft was taxiing.
We still, 19 posts later, have people telling us it was all Ryanair's fault, that it is due to 25 minute turnarounds, that Ryanair's SOPs are rubbish, that it would never happen to them, etc.
No doubt if the aircraft had been hit by a meteorite as it taxied out they would have trotted out the same dross.
Moreover, from the standard of their posts it is clear that not only do they not read the preceding posts, they do not read their own.
We still, 19 posts later, have people telling us it was all Ryanair's fault, that it is due to 25 minute turnarounds, that Ryanair's SOPs are rubbish, that it would never happen to them, etc.
No doubt if the aircraft had been hit by a meteorite as it taxied out they would have trotted out the same dross.
Moreover, from the standard of their posts it is clear that not only do they not read the preceding posts, they do not read their own.
Ryanair are the airline who have suffered a hull loss (Actually fairplay to the Captain good recovery form the position he was put in by the FO) and been off the end/sides of at least 4 or 5 runways in the last few years.
Why would anyone think that they were in anyway dangerous or rushed things? These things could happen to anyone!
Why would anyone think that they were in anyway dangerous or rushed things? These things could happen to anyone!
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
And frequently do. How many sectors do Ryanair complete every year? I think you'll find their percentage of incidents is no worst, and in many cases better, than "traditional" airlines.
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If you look at the number of sectors operated in this time period, & some of the "international" airports utilised, mixed in with the different experience/nationalities of crew employed ,I think you will find that their SOP's probably contribute a lot , to what is in reality, a very good safety record.
I agree with previous observations, nervousness on the part of flight ops management, does result in them trying to cover every eventuality with an SOP, but what to do.Acquiring airmanship only happens with time, many of their crew lack it (both calendar time & flight hours) & more importantly many lack any broader experience by having operated with other companies/aircraft types. So SOP's are pretty much the default option both for them & the flight safety Dept as they gain that experience. No easy solution there.
Still feel more comfortable boarding as SLF with them than Air Chance, so what does that tell the Ryanair bashers ?
I agree with previous observations, nervousness on the part of flight ops management, does result in them trying to cover every eventuality with an SOP, but what to do.Acquiring airmanship only happens with time, many of their crew lack it (both calendar time & flight hours) & more importantly many lack any broader experience by having operated with other companies/aircraft types. So SOP's are pretty much the default option both for them & the flight safety Dept as they gain that experience. No easy solution there.
Still feel more comfortable boarding as SLF with them than Air Chance, so what does that tell the Ryanair bashers ?
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Boeing flyer - you don't want to be a "monkey" working under their (I assume you mean their, my brain hurts after reading your post) terms and conditions but could you just listen to yourself for a moment?
It is their aircraft and their passengers! If they want you to operate the aircraft in a certain way, is there something so unreasonable about that? Lack of attention to SOPs is the one thing that is most likely to cause un-neccessary stress on the flightdeck and leads to important things being missed. Ignoring SOP is the most likely reason for people finding themselves in hot water. So why not just do them and keep things simple? You can still be Chuck Yeager if you want - most decent airlines (incl FR) don't mind you hand flying the aircraft and you always have the chance to show how great you are if you have an emergency of some sort.
Great example - flying with a Capt in the sim last year. Decides he won't line select MCT after an engine failure just prior to level off (the SOP we brief every day on the line) because he knew better. Of course he was talking out of his arse and caused further problems down the road when the bugs were all wrong. Why? Because he thought he knew better. Well that's all very well but it just DOES NOT WORK in a multi-crew environment. Maybe it did when Captain's were not to be questioned - but only to the point where the aircraft flew into the ground which happened a hell of a lot more way back when than today.
I hate flying with guys like you - it makes for a bloody long day.
It is their aircraft and their passengers! If they want you to operate the aircraft in a certain way, is there something so unreasonable about that? Lack of attention to SOPs is the one thing that is most likely to cause un-neccessary stress on the flightdeck and leads to important things being missed. Ignoring SOP is the most likely reason for people finding themselves in hot water. So why not just do them and keep things simple? You can still be Chuck Yeager if you want - most decent airlines (incl FR) don't mind you hand flying the aircraft and you always have the chance to show how great you are if you have an emergency of some sort.
Great example - flying with a Capt in the sim last year. Decides he won't line select MCT after an engine failure just prior to level off (the SOP we brief every day on the line) because he knew better. Of course he was talking out of his arse and caused further problems down the road when the bugs were all wrong. Why? Because he thought he knew better. Well that's all very well but it just DOES NOT WORK in a multi-crew environment. Maybe it did when Captain's were not to be questioned - but only to the point where the aircraft flew into the ground which happened a hell of a lot more way back when than today.
I hate flying with guys like you - it makes for a bloody long day.
Ryanair are the airline who have suffered a hull loss
Using example of Hull loss v towbar issues stretches the point a bit.
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D O Guerrero. Thankīs for your respond to my opinien..
I donīt understand how you can twist my word to sound that im not following SOP. You better read itīagain and mark what i am talking about.
I donīt understand how you can twist my word to sound that im not following SOP. You better read itīagain and mark what i am talking about.
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To the individual talking about RYR's hull loss: what complete rubbish! Dual engine failure on finals with flaps 40 going into a short runway. In my opinion the crew of this particular flight didn't receive enough recognition!
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Following massive birdstrike & 1 eng calling it a day F/O initiated G/A pretty much as per SOP's, but perhaps without full use of imagination (although Boeing do allow to continue approach with NO configuration change if performance is sufficient, which would indeed be my preference after two windscreens full of feathered friends)
As no interim report made public 2 and a bit years later (with thanks to ENAC! if there is one, a link please someone? ) I don't know if Capt corrected this action, or had the decision made for him when the second donk quit shortly after.
G/A converted swiftly into dead stick landing which was understandably not elegant ,but was,importantly, safe enough to result in only Boeing dented & not SLF.
Kind of reflects what some of us are saying. Easy(ish) to do the "correct action/SOP" not always so simple to "get it right".
As no interim report made public 2 and a bit years later (with thanks to ENAC! if there is one, a link please someone? ) I don't know if Capt corrected this action, or had the decision made for him when the second donk quit shortly after.
G/A converted swiftly into dead stick landing which was understandably not elegant ,but was,importantly, safe enough to result in only Boeing dented & not SLF.
Kind of reflects what some of us are saying. Easy(ish) to do the "correct action/SOP" not always so simple to "get it right".
Thread Starter
John R - then dont read it!
There are certainly a lot of extra pilots out there who will now take extra care and perhaps save themselves falling foul of such incidents.
There are certainly a lot of extra pilots out there who will now take extra care and perhaps save themselves falling foul of such incidents.
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Tedious reading.
Yes, John R, Nobody is forcing you.
What started as a report of a minor incident has turned into a debate on safety culture and SOP compliance. Thread drift maybe, but not tedious, or trivial.
I believe FR should only be given limited credit for the minor airfield operations, or for limited experience of some crew, or for language barriers. Nobody is forcing them either, to send new-ish crews, who don't speak each others' language, off to somewhere where a third language is spoken, and there is no radar, proceedural N/P one end, and no proceedure at all at the other.
That said, It seems that huge efforts have been made to offset the industry perception, not so long ago that the operation was somehow gung-ho.
Whilst avoiding any comment about this particular incident, robust SOP saves lots of silly mistakes, and some serious ones, on a daily basis, and there is increasing emphasis on decision making, CRM, and error chain, for those who like to stamp their own personality on the proceedings.
What started as a report of a minor incident has turned into a debate on safety culture and SOP compliance. Thread drift maybe, but not tedious, or trivial.
I believe FR should only be given limited credit for the minor airfield operations, or for limited experience of some crew, or for language barriers. Nobody is forcing them either, to send new-ish crews, who don't speak each others' language, off to somewhere where a third language is spoken, and there is no radar, proceedural N/P one end, and no proceedure at all at the other.
That said, It seems that huge efforts have been made to offset the industry perception, not so long ago that the operation was somehow gung-ho.
Whilst avoiding any comment about this particular incident, robust SOP saves lots of silly mistakes, and some serious ones, on a daily basis, and there is increasing emphasis on decision making, CRM, and error chain, for those who like to stamp their own personality on the proceedings.
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CRM and us...
By D O Guerrero :
Lack of attention to SOPs is the one thing that is most likely to cause un-neccessary stress on the flightdeck and leads to important things being missed. Ignoring SOP is the most likely reason for people finding themselves in hot water. So why not just do them and keep things simple? You can still be Chuck Yeager if you want - most decent airlines (incl FR) don't mind you hand flying the aircraft and you always have the chance to show how great you are if you have an emergency of some sort.
Very very well said. Exactly what hurts us at AF... Never read such a good explanation of a bad CRM attitude before This of course, being out of the context of this thread but still...
Lack of attention to SOPs is the one thing that is most likely to cause un-neccessary stress on the flightdeck and leads to important things being missed. Ignoring SOP is the most likely reason for people finding themselves in hot water. So why not just do them and keep things simple? You can still be Chuck Yeager if you want - most decent airlines (incl FR) don't mind you hand flying the aircraft and you always have the chance to show how great you are if you have an emergency of some sort.
Very very well said. Exactly what hurts us at AF... Never read such a good explanation of a bad CRM attitude before
This of course, being out of the context of this thread but still...
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John R:
You are not allowed to do visual app in FR, unless you have LNAV and VNAV availible to a minimum of 4NM. So disconnecting FD and A/P for a visual is not legal in FR.
You are allowed to handfly but FD must be on with LNAV and VNAV.
Young cadets never learn to fly visual at any stage without the possibility to learn the aircraft behaviour.
Sorry to mixe up this tread - Just wanted to clear some things out
You are not allowed to do visual app in FR, unless you have LNAV and VNAV availible to a minimum of 4NM. So disconnecting FD and A/P for a visual is not legal in FR.
You are allowed to handfly but FD must be on with LNAV and VNAV.
Young cadets never learn to fly visual at any stage without the possibility to learn the aircraft behaviour.
Sorry to mixe up this tread - Just wanted to clear some things out