AF A330 severe hard landing ccs
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@ JW411
I only give the AMM reference.
I do not know if or how there was a crosstalk between Air Inter and the MCC of AF.
Without this knowledge ist is impossible to point out the guilty person or organisation.
@ Safety Concerns
That is no nitpicking. This is the actual AF A330 AMM.
I warmly recommend to read the A330 AMM (especially the part in conjunction with Zone 3)
I only give the AMM reference.
I do not know if or how there was a crosstalk between Air Inter and the MCC of AF.
Without this knowledge ist is impossible to point out the guilty person or organisation.
@ Safety Concerns
That is no nitpicking. This is the actual AF A330 AMM.
I warmly recommend to read the A330 AMM (especially the part in conjunction with Zone 3)
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its exactly why you engineers remain as you are. Completely unable to relate to the bigger picture.
The fact is that accident investigators have discovered that on numerous occasions engineers do not progress past the load 15 report dilemma. As stated, the common misconception is no load 15, no hard landing, no need to look in the maintenance manual.
Zone 3,4,5,6, or 500, completely misses the AAIB and others point.
The fact is that accident investigators have discovered that on numerous occasions engineers do not progress past the load 15 report dilemma. As stated, the common misconception is no load 15, no hard landing, no need to look in the maintenance manual.
Zone 3,4,5,6, or 500, completely misses the AAIB and others point.
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I did NOT say that without a Report 15 there is no hard landing.
A hard landing inspection starts when the crew makes a report of a hard/hard overweight landing, or when you get a Report 15 with values that require a inspection.
I take a guess:
You get your name from your safety department?
A hard landing inspection starts when the crew makes a report of a hard/hard overweight landing, or when you get a Report 15 with values that require a inspection.
I take a guess:
You get your name from your safety department?
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Lemurian,
You said you have not posted much on these forums in a while, perhaps that was a good decision on your part.
I offer this observation based on the fact that you seem to have taken exception to every other post that appears, whilst simultaneously berating/belittling anyone whose view you don't share.
We all have differences of opinion with certain individuals in life, but when we appear to have differences with "everyone" there are only two solutions . . . either everyone else is wrong. . . . OR?
You said you have not posted much on these forums in a while, perhaps that was a good decision on your part.
I offer this observation based on the fact that you seem to have taken exception to every other post that appears, whilst simultaneously berating/belittling anyone whose view you don't share.
We all have differences of opinion with certain individuals in life, but when we appear to have differences with "everyone" there are only two solutions . . . either everyone else is wrong. . . . OR?
Sun worshipper
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Dear Captain,
Did you read the whole thread or shall I put together what I consider offending arguments?
Because it's quite easy to do it. And maybe ,just maybe you'd start understanding my position.
BTW, I had no quarrel with Chris, did I ?
regards.
Did you read the whole thread or shall I put together what I consider offending arguments?
Because it's quite easy to do it. And maybe ,just maybe you'd start understanding my position.
BTW, I had no quarrel with Chris, did I ?
regards.
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Lemurian
AF is one of the best airline to work for but not one of the best with safety records, why?
I used to be proud of AF but time has come to say I am not anymore.
Technocrats took control of our job and make the rules (Cible avion, Captain autority......)
This concerns all the pilots.
FTL and licencing (MCL) are the main reasons of downgraded safety in the Worlwide aviation along with maintenance and fuel price.
Cost killing starts with payroll.
AF kept good working conditions with no or less fatigue issues.
Too much self confidence is the deal.
Training should start with knowledge of competitors or smaller airlines way of working.
Qantas is a great example to start with....
Be able to say we are not the best but happy (and not proud) to work here.
Bon vols
AF is one of the best airline to work for but not one of the best with safety records, why?
I used to be proud of AF but time has come to say I am not anymore.
Technocrats took control of our job and make the rules (Cible avion, Captain autority......)
This concerns all the pilots.
FTL and licencing (MCL) are the main reasons of downgraded safety in the Worlwide aviation along with maintenance and fuel price.
Cost killing starts with payroll.
AF kept good working conditions with no or less fatigue issues.
Too much self confidence is the deal.
Training should start with knowledge of competitors or smaller airlines way of working.
Qantas is a great example to start with....
Be able to say we are not the best but happy (and not proud) to work here.
Bon vols
Pegase Driver
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Dear Lemurian,
You seem to be blinded by the bashing some expressed on this forum against your employer, and the critical comments or “lessons” as you call them, from colleagues and peers. Do not mix the 2.
I never intended to ” bash AF” as you said here . This was the first airline I flew in when I was 10 years old ( in a Super G ) and I still have all the Dinky toys metal model airplanes of that era on my cupboard. I love that airline for its past and its history ,therefore basically I am a strong critic of what I see now, what its senior management , its internal Unions fighting, and some of its crews have done with it.
I am not here to give “ lessons” to anyone. My past job was ( and still is part time today) dealing with safety , although applied to ATM not Airline Flight operations. Part of my his job consist of finding ,eliminating or mitigating the few remaining holes in various latent layers in order to have ZERO accident. You can only do that if you have an open incident reporting culture and a management behind you that will implement what you propose, and take care the consequences .Since a few years budget/costs has become a major constraint we cannot ignore, but human mitigation is still possible.
The “ Colin report” ordered by AF was a very important step in identifying the layers, the holes and was a good base in determining a corrective action/process. We all applauded this report at the time if I remember correctly. But what happened next ? Why is AF still in the news with incidents ( and all the others that do not make the media ) that are showing the same old pattern ?
I am aware that AF management is” trying to do something “ but what I see and read ( from the outside) is rather a defensive approach aimed at keeping the load factors and not upsetting the Unions, rather than a radical deep will to turn things around. You have the inside knowledge, tell me I am wrong please.
Also please stop mentioning ever and ever how other airlines have similar incidents and are treated better. Yes everyone has incidents, how you deal with them is the issue in this thread (CCS) . Comparing BA 777/Heathrow and Toronto will not get you any sympathy here. Maybe in a pub in France , but not here.
Bons vols et bien Cordialement.
You seem to be blinded by the bashing some expressed on this forum against your employer, and the critical comments or “lessons” as you call them, from colleagues and peers. Do not mix the 2.
I never intended to ” bash AF” as you said here . This was the first airline I flew in when I was 10 years old ( in a Super G ) and I still have all the Dinky toys metal model airplanes of that era on my cupboard. I love that airline for its past and its history ,therefore basically I am a strong critic of what I see now, what its senior management , its internal Unions fighting, and some of its crews have done with it.
I am not here to give “ lessons” to anyone. My past job was ( and still is part time today) dealing with safety , although applied to ATM not Airline Flight operations. Part of my his job consist of finding ,eliminating or mitigating the few remaining holes in various latent layers in order to have ZERO accident. You can only do that if you have an open incident reporting culture and a management behind you that will implement what you propose, and take care the consequences .Since a few years budget/costs has become a major constraint we cannot ignore, but human mitigation is still possible.
The “ Colin report” ordered by AF was a very important step in identifying the layers, the holes and was a good base in determining a corrective action/process. We all applauded this report at the time if I remember correctly. But what happened next ? Why is AF still in the news with incidents ( and all the others that do not make the media ) that are showing the same old pattern ?
I am aware that AF management is” trying to do something “ but what I see and read ( from the outside) is rather a defensive approach aimed at keeping the load factors and not upsetting the Unions, rather than a radical deep will to turn things around. You have the inside knowledge, tell me I am wrong please.
Also please stop mentioning ever and ever how other airlines have similar incidents and are treated better. Yes everyone has incidents, how you deal with them is the issue in this thread (CCS) . Comparing BA 777/Heathrow and Toronto will not get you any sympathy here. Maybe in a pub in France , but not here.
Bons vols et bien Cordialement.
Sun worshipper
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Also please stop mentioning ever and ever how other airlines have similar incidents and are treated better. Yes everyone has incidents, how you deal with them is the issue in this thread (CCS)
As for mentioning others'events, I'll do it everytime I think that objectivity and fairness are not being served.
And why shouldn't I ?
Because, as you said, it
will not get (me) any sympathy here ?
Australian Calou :
I used to be proud of AF but time has come to say I am not anymore.
But I'm still optimistic.
Kind regards.
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AF A332 at CCS
I saw this AF A332 in Caracas today, it is parked at the end of the passenger terminal on the right hand side as you park in.....it is sitting in a set of jacks looking a sorry sight !! Its engines are covered up and some masking tape was visable on this aircraft. This aircraft will not be going anywhere very soon !
I certainly don't have any animosity towards AF, and I most sincerely hope that they do make progress in the future and regain the confidence of their passengers and the public at large.
AF 332 at CCS
Objective comment:
"I saw this AF A332 in Caracas today. She is parked at the end of the passenger terminal since no hangar is available. She is sitting in a set of jacks as mechanics are working on its undercarriage. Its engines and sensitive parts have been thoroughly protected from the corrosive maritime environment (CCS is on the shoreline). This aircraft will fly again as soon as the repairs on its RH MLG are complete."
"I saw this AF A332 in Caracas today. She is parked at the end of the passenger terminal since no hangar is available. She is sitting in a set of jacks as mechanics are working on its undercarriage. Its engines and sensitive parts have been thoroughly protected from the corrosive maritime environment (CCS is on the shoreline). This aircraft will fly again as soon as the repairs on its RH MLG are complete."
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wow, this thread has some interesting and not interesting posts hehe
UPDATE:
RH landing gear has been replaced already, LH is being replaced as we speak.
Heavy rain has delayed the job considerably.
I will be surprised that they will get permit to fly out of here with all that fuselage damage..maybe unpressurized..
I have photos, do I need to have them online somewhere or can I post them here from my desktop?
UPDATE:
RH landing gear has been replaced already, LH is being replaced as we speak.
Heavy rain has delayed the job considerably.
I will be surprised that they will get permit to fly out of here with all that fuselage damage..maybe unpressurized..
I have photos, do I need to have them online somewhere or can I post them here from my desktop?
Just had a seance where the spirit of 411A was present. Standard levitating table, the tossing of loose objects, some thunder and lightning with a voice rumbling "I told you so".
Silence and calm returned as it was explained that it was AF and not AA.
RIP
Silence and calm returned as it was explained that it was AF and not AA.
RIP
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Lemurian and Australiancalou are bickering like old women for a hard landing ? What is it going to be when 447 DFDR and CVR contends are published. I sure as egg will be taking cover.
Astraliancalou, it strikes me in this that the responsability of a hard landing has to be shoved on AF management laps. Who do you think you are kidding ????
Ever heard of a stabilized approach, ya know things like stable vertical speed and approach speed and not a nightmarish 1800 ft a min at 200 ft ? The hard floor is 500 ft, which means that with this horror scenario they should have been nose in the sun buggering off to Mars.
I happen to be working for this fine airline and this I can tell you : every time I f....d up and I wished it hadn't been that many times ( praise the lord I didn't make headline news ).....it was I and not my boss who was sitting in the left hand seat. Read me son ?
Every single time I felt like horse manure and raked my brain at how not to
EVER do it again. That's why I never thought of myself like an invincible hotshot. If anything, this job has humbled me more than I would have wished.
There are truck loads of men and women who feel the way I feel and that I'm happy to be able to call colleagues.
As to Qantas which you so eloquently mention without knowing too much about it,
I doubt they would put up with the kind of nonsense that has been going on
for too long now.
We are in an industry and in a particular airline that so far, treats us fairly and
pays us well. The least we could do would be to admit and correct when we
screw the pooch.
Sure thing, there are systemic issues which I can't discuss here, but the buck starts with us and stops with us. That's a ****ty deal, I know but it's no different from what BA, LH or QF get thrown on their laps. Trust me, I have been in this joint long enough to be able to tell you it wasn't always like this.
Sure, our now retired elders had sometimes foul moods and were not always easy to handle, but one thing is sure, they were responsible and accountable and would have rather performed Sepuku than give this sorry display of self pitty " not me not not me "
Grow up son ! No one is going to clean up after you.
We all have to do our homework on this one and if not for ourselves ( if you don't hive a s..t anymore ) at least for the people who trust us with their lives.
Otherwise, we'll soon be out of a job and I'm not sure people like gou will like the taste of what the real world out there is all about. I've been there and I don't want to go back.
And yes, the Colin report was the best ever stuff written in years, and that's why it was shelved in the attic by the unions.
As to our usual all too happy whatever south of the Channel country bashers and who rolled themselves in dust screaming at 411's death news. Do show some decency in your comments, will ya ? I can take a punch on the chin, however, I resent mud sligging.
Astraliancalou, it strikes me in this that the responsability of a hard landing has to be shoved on AF management laps. Who do you think you are kidding ????
Ever heard of a stabilized approach, ya know things like stable vertical speed and approach speed and not a nightmarish 1800 ft a min at 200 ft ? The hard floor is 500 ft, which means that with this horror scenario they should have been nose in the sun buggering off to Mars.
I happen to be working for this fine airline and this I can tell you : every time I f....d up and I wished it hadn't been that many times ( praise the lord I didn't make headline news ).....it was I and not my boss who was sitting in the left hand seat. Read me son ?
Every single time I felt like horse manure and raked my brain at how not to
EVER do it again. That's why I never thought of myself like an invincible hotshot. If anything, this job has humbled me more than I would have wished.
There are truck loads of men and women who feel the way I feel and that I'm happy to be able to call colleagues.
As to Qantas which you so eloquently mention without knowing too much about it,
I doubt they would put up with the kind of nonsense that has been going on
for too long now.
We are in an industry and in a particular airline that so far, treats us fairly and
pays us well. The least we could do would be to admit and correct when we
screw the pooch.
Sure thing, there are systemic issues which I can't discuss here, but the buck starts with us and stops with us. That's a ****ty deal, I know but it's no different from what BA, LH or QF get thrown on their laps. Trust me, I have been in this joint long enough to be able to tell you it wasn't always like this.
Sure, our now retired elders had sometimes foul moods and were not always easy to handle, but one thing is sure, they were responsible and accountable and would have rather performed Sepuku than give this sorry display of self pitty " not me not not me "
Grow up son ! No one is going to clean up after you.
We all have to do our homework on this one and if not for ourselves ( if you don't hive a s..t anymore ) at least for the people who trust us with their lives.
Otherwise, we'll soon be out of a job and I'm not sure people like gou will like the taste of what the real world out there is all about. I've been there and I don't want to go back.
And yes, the Colin report was the best ever stuff written in years, and that's why it was shelved in the attic by the unions.
As to our usual all too happy whatever south of the Channel country bashers and who rolled themselves in dust screaming at 411's death news. Do show some decency in your comments, will ya ? I can take a punch on the chin, however, I resent mud sligging.
Last edited by Me Myself; 8th May 2011 at 19:02.
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Daddy Me
Can't understand what your position really is.
You simply disagree with everyone but Yourself mate.
I am proud of my records untill now but not of most of my colleague's behaviour unable to fight against management interference in our Decision Process.
That's it.
Didn't comment on hard landing in any mean.
And what do you know about the CVR of the AF447.....
I'm an old fashionned pilot trained by old timers not easy to work with but gutsy and respectable.
Too much confidence that's the real deal and your nickname is the perfect evidence of this.
Dday mate......in your sunny jail
the retirement funds.......
Can't understand what your position really is.
You simply disagree with everyone but Yourself mate.
I am proud of my records untill now but not of most of my colleague's behaviour unable to fight against management interference in our Decision Process.
That's it.
Didn't comment on hard landing in any mean.
And what do you know about the CVR of the AF447.....
I'm an old fashionned pilot trained by old timers not easy to work with but gutsy and respectable.
Too much confidence that's the real deal and your nickname is the perfect evidence of this.
Dday mate......in your sunny jail
the retirement funds.......
VeTech;
You have to upload them to a photo hosting site, then insert the link that these sites provide into your PPRuNe post. Two links to such sites are provided below. I use both but prefer smugmug for ease of use.
You may have to experiment with the link, using the "Preview Post" feature in the "Reply to Thread" window of PPRuNe to make sure that the link works. Otherwise it just shows up as a small "X" in a box. I have found using the "Direct Link" link of the several options available on these hosting sites works.
Clicking on the "mountain scenery" icon at the top of the reply window provides a place to paste the copied link. Here are the two sites.
Cheers!
Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket
Photo Sharing. Your Photos Look Better Here.
I have photos, do I need to have them online somewhere or can I post them here from my desktop?
You may have to experiment with the link, using the "Preview Post" feature in the "Reply to Thread" window of PPRuNe to make sure that the link works. Otherwise it just shows up as a small "X" in a box. I have found using the "Direct Link" link of the several options available on these hosting sites works.
Clicking on the "mountain scenery" icon at the top of the reply window provides a place to paste the copied link. Here are the two sites.
Cheers!
Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket
Photo Sharing. Your Photos Look Better Here.
Sun worshipper
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meself
Lemurian and Australiancalou are bickering like old women for a hard landing
And from an old woman to another, you don't seem to grow old(er) gracefully.
Please attend to that before trying to put words in my mouth I have not said.
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Gentleman,
Just passed through Maiquetia a few days ago. Here are some pics.
Fly Safe!
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/...d1/AF-CCS1.jpg
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/...d1/AF-CCS2.jpg
Just passed through Maiquetia a few days ago. Here are some pics.
Fly Safe!
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/...d1/AF-CCS1.jpg
http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/...d1/AF-CCS2.jpg