Crap ATC at TFS today.
Guest
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Crap ATC at TFS today.
Have just got back from TFS after the usual Charter Pilots day out on a Friday. They've got this bloke in the tower who it seems has a new procedure to increase the number of daily movements. It basically means that he clears a B737 to take off whilst we are still decelerating thru 80 knots in a 767. When I asked him (politely) after we had cleared the runway if he was aware what he had done I was told that "I am allowed to do this". Oh well me thinks.
So of we go on our way home when the same tosser clears someone to land (not land after) as we pass thru 90 knots.
OK it was a nice day, and we could all see, but this is gash ATC and there was no rush. Bearing in mind what happened on the runway at TFN all those years ago, you would think that ATC at TFS would be less inclined to cut corners. Anyone else had the same experience?
So of we go on our way home when the same tosser clears someone to land (not land after) as we pass thru 90 knots.
OK it was a nice day, and we could all see, but this is gash ATC and there was no rush. Bearing in mind what happened on the runway at TFN all those years ago, you would think that ATC at TFS would be less inclined to cut corners. Anyone else had the same experience?
Guest
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Sure, I know that in the US, you are "cleared to land" when you are number 5 on the ILS. I don't have a problem with that, but in Europe it does have a different meaning. When a UK controller issues a landing clearance,you can be sure that he/she is satisfied that the tarmac is empty. Some even have it down to a fine art, "XXX 123, the surface wind is BLAH BLAH BLAH, you are now cleared to land on runway 456". Unless they use the "after the landing/departing" we all assume that the strip is empty.
Guest
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Completly agree with your last post Captain Black Adder however being a "charter pilot"too I must admit I have spent many moments sitting at the hold waiting for clearence to take off, even though called ready immediate and being told to wait 'cause the traffic that's 8 miles out has been cleared to land.
Guees you carn't beat good old uk atc!
[This message has been edited by FLAMEOUT (edited 14 April 2001).]
Guees you carn't beat good old uk atc!
[This message has been edited by FLAMEOUT (edited 14 April 2001).]
Guest
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Captain Slack Bladder - I am sure you are right and yes there is a big difference between ATC at the busy European airports where "land after" is common and TFS.
However, if there is something you are not happy with then why not file an MOR - if enough of us did so then perhaps something would be done and also they would all be on the record in the event of an incident?
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However, if there is something you are not happy with then why not file an MOR - if enough of us did so then perhaps something would be done and also they would all be on the record in the event of an incident?
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Guest
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And whilst we are talking about TFS ATC, why is it that on arrivals, you often get kept very high, whilst one of those Inter Island props, is flat out to get in before you. Of course its a Spanish aircraft thats why???
Now that really pisses me off, Spanish ATC favouring their own Nationals, would never happen in UK or most other countries in Europe
Now that really pisses me off, Spanish ATC favouring their own Nationals, would never happen in UK or most other countries in Europe
Guest
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That spanish pilots in spain are number one is nothing new. And that most of the controllers have now feeling of how a big aircraft behaves (you cannot slow down and go down), also nothing new.
Back to the point. I found in the Jeppy on the 10-4 for LEPA a remark, that to increase the traffic flow, pilots will receive landing clearence with the previous still on the runway as a local procedure. May be, itīs also at TFS ???
Back to the point. I found in the Jeppy on the 10-4 for LEPA a remark, that to increase the traffic flow, pilots will receive landing clearence with the previous still on the runway as a local procedure. May be, itīs also at TFS ???
Guest
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A very shoddy practise I agree, however:1 - If you dont like it you can always elect to continue the approach.
2 - You can go around.
3 - Land after the departing is an authorised procedure in the UK, which is only allowed at EGKK,LL, (and I think EGCC.
4 - File an MOR and bang the chief pilots table.
Judging from the comments posted, you would think that you dont have your own minds, and must do as ATC tell you.
The safety of the aircraft and passengers is your responsibility, do something about it.
Guest
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In the US the controller can clear you to land and take off (e.g. LGA) when the runway is occupied. He/she is applying "anticipated separation" which has been approved for use over there.
In the UK, and I believe most of Europe, the situation is different. As has been mentioned, LHR, LGW and MAN can clear you to "land after the departing" prior to it being airborne. This is also anticipated separation just not taken to the extreme of our American friends or it seems the Parisiens!
The controller has to be satisfied that a number of different criteria and conditions are going to be met prior to issuing the clearance. One of these is that the pilot of the landing aircraft is visual with the departing traffic. Even though it is in the judgement of the controller that the required separation will exist, the pilot is responsible for accepting the clearance.
If you don't like it, don't accept it. It all comes down to professional trust in the end. It seems that you trust the Americans and the British but have a problem with the French and the Spanish.
When you fly into the US do you refuse to be cleared to land number 3, or do you accept it because its a fact of life over there and you trust them to get it right?
Not having the "full picture" due to use of native tongues will, IMO, reduce the trust you have in the controller because you don't know what he is saying to everyone else.
In a few years when our capacity constrained airports are bursting more than they are now, this might be a more widespread procedure along with Land And Hold Short Operations (LAHSO) where responsibility for ensuring separation is given to the pilot.
To get these procedures approved, certainly in the UK, takes a lot of research, simulation and safety analysis. It won't just happen overnight.
Its just like 2.5 mile spacing on final and reduction in vortex wake separations were a few years ago. "That'll never happen"... but that's a different thread!
In the UK, and I believe most of Europe, the situation is different. As has been mentioned, LHR, LGW and MAN can clear you to "land after the departing" prior to it being airborne. This is also anticipated separation just not taken to the extreme of our American friends or it seems the Parisiens!
The controller has to be satisfied that a number of different criteria and conditions are going to be met prior to issuing the clearance. One of these is that the pilot of the landing aircraft is visual with the departing traffic. Even though it is in the judgement of the controller that the required separation will exist, the pilot is responsible for accepting the clearance.
If you don't like it, don't accept it. It all comes down to professional trust in the end. It seems that you trust the Americans and the British but have a problem with the French and the Spanish.
When you fly into the US do you refuse to be cleared to land number 3, or do you accept it because its a fact of life over there and you trust them to get it right?
Not having the "full picture" due to use of native tongues will, IMO, reduce the trust you have in the controller because you don't know what he is saying to everyone else.
In a few years when our capacity constrained airports are bursting more than they are now, this might be a more widespread procedure along with Land And Hold Short Operations (LAHSO) where responsibility for ensuring separation is given to the pilot.
To get these procedures approved, certainly in the UK, takes a lot of research, simulation and safety analysis. It won't just happen overnight.
Its just like 2.5 mile spacing on final and reduction in vortex wake separations were a few years ago. "That'll never happen"... but that's a different thread!
Guest
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Landed in ALC this evening and we were just turning off the centre line towards the high speed exit when they cleared an aircraft to land. I find it terrible that they do this, we were still in the middle of the runway!
411A,
In the UK we operate to (arguably) the highest safety standards in the world. Some of our practices may be Dickensien but they err on the side of safety. I would think twice if I were you when stating that we are "out of step" in aviation matters lest you should be considered "gash".
On leaving London this afternoon, one of the sectors was very, very busy and the female ATCO was brilliant, and all the a/c replying were very professional, quick and curtious with their replies. I was just thinking how amazing it was that people from such a diverse range of nationalities, i.e. Europeans, Asians, Arabs, et al were all working so well together when the whole thing was let down by United XXX needing to be called three times before that ATCO got a response. You could almost hear the tutting around the TMA!
411A,
In the UK we operate to (arguably) the highest safety standards in the world. Some of our practices may be Dickensien but they err on the side of safety. I would think twice if I were you when stating that we are "out of step" in aviation matters lest you should be considered "gash".
On leaving London this afternoon, one of the sectors was very, very busy and the female ATCO was brilliant, and all the a/c replying were very professional, quick and curtious with their replies. I was just thinking how amazing it was that people from such a diverse range of nationalities, i.e. Europeans, Asians, Arabs, et al were all working so well together when the whole thing was let down by United XXX needing to be called three times before that ATCO got a response. You could almost hear the tutting around the TMA!
Guest
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FMGC--
Yes indeed, "arguably" is the operative term. I would argue that the ATC services in, for example, FRA, AMS & ZRH are just as good (if not better) than LHR. Lets face facts, the UK is just slightly ah...."different" than the rest of Europe. When UK crews go to other locations they will just have to "go with the flow", or not go at all.
Yes indeed, "arguably" is the operative term. I would argue that the ATC services in, for example, FRA, AMS & ZRH are just as good (if not better) than LHR. Lets face facts, the UK is just slightly ah...."different" than the rest of Europe. When UK crews go to other locations they will just have to "go with the flow", or not go at all.
Guest
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411A ,
your reply seems to suggest that the UK way of handling Air traffic ,being so pedantic as to say "CLEAR" to land is unexpeditious,and yet the busiest airspace in Europe is still dealt with.
Admittedley we are not moving the same traffic as in the states but we do it on single (or in HTW,s case) dual runways. We do not have the physical space to operate on 9 or 10 runways or to speed control aircraft from up to 200 miles out.
The most important point though,I feel ,is that when I give a pilot an instruction, they know it to be Absolute.
The runway is clear,the go around track is clear, the overhead is clear and therefore you are cleared to land.
If you want to tell aircraft they can land when they are number three,use another phrase ,but do not tell them they are CLEAR
your reply seems to suggest that the UK way of handling Air traffic ,being so pedantic as to say "CLEAR" to land is unexpeditious,and yet the busiest airspace in Europe is still dealt with.
Admittedley we are not moving the same traffic as in the states but we do it on single (or in HTW,s case) dual runways. We do not have the physical space to operate on 9 or 10 runways or to speed control aircraft from up to 200 miles out.
The most important point though,I feel ,is that when I give a pilot an instruction, they know it to be Absolute.
The runway is clear,the go around track is clear, the overhead is clear and therefore you are cleared to land.
If you want to tell aircraft they can land when they are number three,use another phrase ,but do not tell them they are CLEAR
Pegase Driver
Common guys, wake up ! the airlines that employ you are putting all posible pressure to ATS service providers to eliminate delays, while planning increasing number of movements in their schedules.They are the ones that are asking for this.
On the other end, if you do not like these new procedures,why not just refuse them and go around, if enough of you do it, I am sure the beans counters in your airlines will figure it out fast that it was cheaper to keep the old (safer) procedures.
But do not shoot at the TFS TWR guys or girls, they only following the procedures their authorities have dreamed up to increase runway capacity.
They do it in the US all the time, yes, but their number of incidents and runways incursions and collisions is second to none in the world as well.
For a real chill in the spine, try a LAHSO procedure in Boston. (Last one I saw reminded me of the old James Dean movie when the 2 guys are speeding in their respective cars in opposite directions, waiting for one of them to chicken out and avoid he collision.
This was in the US of A as well...
P.S. :
Just wondering,on my own ,how a new privatised NATS will react to similar demands , especially if those are coming from their own board of directors .
On the other end, if you do not like these new procedures,why not just refuse them and go around, if enough of you do it, I am sure the beans counters in your airlines will figure it out fast that it was cheaper to keep the old (safer) procedures.
But do not shoot at the TFS TWR guys or girls, they only following the procedures their authorities have dreamed up to increase runway capacity.
They do it in the US all the time, yes, but their number of incidents and runways incursions and collisions is second to none in the world as well.
For a real chill in the spine, try a LAHSO procedure in Boston. (Last one I saw reminded me of the old James Dean movie when the 2 guys are speeding in their respective cars in opposite directions, waiting for one of them to chicken out and avoid he collision.
This was in the US of A as well...
P.S. :
Just wondering,on my own ,how a new privatised NATS will react to similar demands , especially if those are coming from their own board of directors .
