Crash-Cork Airport
Dear Boris......perhaps you should define your understanding of 'peripheral operators'!
Do you mean operators of smaller aeroplanes...or small operators with only a couple of aeroplanes....or non-UK operators or what?
My personal view is that operators who do not have adequate mechanisms for managing safety OR who fail to comply with their SOPs should be removed. However for this to happen the regulators (whoever they happen to be) must do some regulating. Currently they are obsessed with layers of regulation, bureaucracy, paperwork, tick boxes and seminars whilst Rome is burning! How else could the likes of Manx 2 (whoever they are) have got away with their alleged cowboy practices, known to so many (it would appear) for so long?
As to ATC being required to police weather minima, type of approach etc, I don't think so. The principle of airports and ATC in particular providing information whilst operators (and pilots) fly within their known minima has worked pretty well for many years in most of the world.
However, perhaps there is scope for some kind of immediate whistle blowing or approach ban when a known breach of minima is about to happen? (Similar to the UK scheme whereby CAA approved persons at an airport can prevent a flight from departing). Just a thought......discuss!
Do you mean operators of smaller aeroplanes...or small operators with only a couple of aeroplanes....or non-UK operators or what?
My personal view is that operators who do not have adequate mechanisms for managing safety OR who fail to comply with their SOPs should be removed. However for this to happen the regulators (whoever they happen to be) must do some regulating. Currently they are obsessed with layers of regulation, bureaucracy, paperwork, tick boxes and seminars whilst Rome is burning! How else could the likes of Manx 2 (whoever they are) have got away with their alleged cowboy practices, known to so many (it would appear) for so long?
As to ATC being required to police weather minima, type of approach etc, I don't think so. The principle of airports and ATC in particular providing information whilst operators (and pilots) fly within their known minima has worked pretty well for many years in most of the world.
However, perhaps there is scope for some kind of immediate whistle blowing or approach ban when a known breach of minima is about to happen? (Similar to the UK scheme whereby CAA approved persons at an airport can prevent a flight from departing). Just a thought......discuss!
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Cranfield UK
Age: 70
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Company Culture
There has been much said about small operations and their attitudes and culture but being small need not of itself mean being unsafe. From writing manuals here in UK to get an AOC issued I am confident that all of those in the process of acquiring such a prize would not jeopardise it by employing reckless pilots. However when an "outfit" comprises all of the right legal elements to allow operations but without the commitment from all of those invloved being focussed on the same ends we probably all agree it can be a recipe for disaster.
The crash may be down to human factors and the culture may have played a large part in persuading pilots to fly illegally for short term gains. We can all see the potential for not only disaster but for passing blame in the event of one. It seems to me that if (let's say) a crew's investment is more concerned with the uprating of a licence to advance a career and not in the proper operation then this is likely to lead to more risky flying.
Perhaps it is time for more psychological assessment of crew members before they operate any new type or on promotion. There are enough officials involved that should feel guilty of allowing this operation if even half of what is said about it in previous posts is near to the truth. Regrettably on a rumour network facts are often scarce.
I have been reading this thread for weeks now and my query is about how to stall so near the ground and still end up inverted though I have read that this is not unlikely in one of these aircraft.
So my final thoughts apart from this being more or less the worst news for the people in the event are "Was this crash truly preventable as most of us suspect and if it was, will we actually learn form this and take sufficient action or will it just be said that we will, as it always is when something bad happens"
The crash may be down to human factors and the culture may have played a large part in persuading pilots to fly illegally for short term gains. We can all see the potential for not only disaster but for passing blame in the event of one. It seems to me that if (let's say) a crew's investment is more concerned with the uprating of a licence to advance a career and not in the proper operation then this is likely to lead to more risky flying.
Perhaps it is time for more psychological assessment of crew members before they operate any new type or on promotion. There are enough officials involved that should feel guilty of allowing this operation if even half of what is said about it in previous posts is near to the truth. Regrettably on a rumour network facts are often scarce.
I have been reading this thread for weeks now and my query is about how to stall so near the ground and still end up inverted though I have read that this is not unlikely in one of these aircraft.
So my final thoughts apart from this being more or less the worst news for the people in the event are "Was this crash truly preventable as most of us suspect and if it was, will we actually learn form this and take sufficient action or will it just be said that we will, as it always is when something bad happens"
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: _
Posts: 350
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Captain and copilot doing the work of two men by the looks of things: Laurel and Hardy. I truly despair that I have to share airspace with clowns like these. (Yes I am CAT3B autoland qualified & current before anyone starts thank-you).
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: I wish I knew
Posts: 624
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stall? The approach was not stabılısed, the report clearly states the a/c was not on the centre lıne, made harsh correctıons ın attemptıng to alıgn and then overcorrected ın the opposıte sense and went through 97 degrees bank before strıkıng the wıng tıp.
Realıty ıs, thıs ıs nothıng to do wıth ATC sımply bad decısıon makıng and human factors leadıng to a mıshandled attempt to go-around from a badly executed approach.
No doubt these poor guys felt under pressure theır dıversıon optıons were lımıted and the decısıon to dıvert early on was not taken.
Flyıng low technology wıth no autopılot or flıght dırectors on commercıal pax routes ıs complete nonsense. There should be a mınımum avıonıcs fıt to get thıs crap out of the sky.
No lessons to be learnt here as thıs ıs happenıng all too often.
Realıty ıs, thıs ıs nothıng to do wıth ATC sımply bad decısıon makıng and human factors leadıng to a mıshandled attempt to go-around from a badly executed approach.
No doubt these poor guys felt under pressure theır dıversıon optıons were lımıted and the decısıon to dıvert early on was not taken.
Flyıng low technology wıth no autopılot or flıght dırectors on commercıal pax routes ıs complete nonsense. There should be a mınımum avıonıcs fıt to get thıs crap out of the sky.
No lessons to be learnt here as thıs ıs happenıng all too often.
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In the house
Posts: 167
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Manx2 is the second virtual airline to have set up on the Isle of Man. The first was the original Euromanx.
There are a lot of international readers of this thread. Does anyone know of this kind of virtual airline scheme operating anywhere else. I'm not talkig about an aircraft leased in to fill a gap in another operator's schedule but a whole 'airline' operating 24/7 on the back of a mix of AOC holders and aircraft/crew providers.
Or is this an Isle of Man thing; allowed thanks to the twerps who have no interest in air services apart from the fact that someone shows up with an aircraft to get the locals on and off the Rock. I'm sure the powers that be here will simply slope shoulders in the direction of the CAA.
"I can imagine that the isle of man is a very small, close knit community. it might want to consider starting a publicly funded air service of the highest quality..."
'We had an air service of the highest quality, Manx Airlines. Offered to the Government but turned down in favour of an "Openskies policy" ' spot on Ransman fella.
There are a lot of international readers of this thread. Does anyone know of this kind of virtual airline scheme operating anywhere else. I'm not talkig about an aircraft leased in to fill a gap in another operator's schedule but a whole 'airline' operating 24/7 on the back of a mix of AOC holders and aircraft/crew providers.
Or is this an Isle of Man thing; allowed thanks to the twerps who have no interest in air services apart from the fact that someone shows up with an aircraft to get the locals on and off the Rock. I'm sure the powers that be here will simply slope shoulders in the direction of the CAA.
"I can imagine that the isle of man is a very small, close knit community. it might want to consider starting a publicly funded air service of the highest quality..."
'We had an air service of the highest quality, Manx Airlines. Offered to the Government but turned down in favour of an "Openskies policy" ' spot on Ransman fella.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 95
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Call the Police.
I do hope that this matter will now be notified to the Garda (Irish Police) for the purpose of Criminal investigation of the relevant organisations for Manslaughter. The investigation must look deeper than the crew.
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Worldwide
Posts: 1,468
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How else could the likes of Manx 2 (whoever they are) have got away with their alleged cowboy practices, known to so many (it would appear) for so long?
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Kiltsville
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Blatant
I join the other cynics in being unsurpprised (hence my earlier post) however, what is shocking is that they went in on appraoch number 1 with the clear intention of busting limits.
This is not an error of judgement under pressure, like the 3rd attampt, low fuel, few options -not that that's acceptable but perhaps more understandable - this was blatant rule busting from the off.
The culture of the whole operation stinks but why? That is what investigators should look at now. In this free market scramble for cash/survival there must be others, and they could be alive and well in the EU.
This is not an error of judgement under pressure, like the 3rd attampt, low fuel, few options -not that that's acceptable but perhaps more understandable - this was blatant rule busting from the off.
The culture of the whole operation stinks but why? That is what investigators should look at now. In this free market scramble for cash/survival there must be others, and they could be alive and well in the EU.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: South of the Watford Gap, East of Portland
Posts: 255
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And just which one of the supposedly regulating authorites would one inform?
Airline - no responsiblity (it thinks) and happy with whatever needs to be done to keep the schedule on track; AOC holder - wants to keep the contract; aircraft provider - wants to keep the contract; AOC's national CAA - probably NFI in a tin-pot airline several hundred miles away; UKCAA - well???; Irish CAA - ditto; IOM CAA - as Tinwald suggested, NFI and probably no jurisdiction to do anything so...............who?
Airline - no responsiblity (it thinks) and happy with whatever needs to be done to keep the schedule on track; AOC holder - wants to keep the contract; aircraft provider - wants to keep the contract; AOC's national CAA - probably NFI in a tin-pot airline several hundred miles away; UKCAA - well???; Irish CAA - ditto; IOM CAA - as Tinwald suggested, NFI and probably no jurisdiction to do anything so...............who?
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 245
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ultimately a clear line has to be drawn between the responsibilities of different participants in the system. No one is better placed to assess landing conditions than the individuals on the flight deck.
It's worth reading the analysis of the ATC performance in the NTSB accident report for KAL801 (pdf) in this regard. Even if the poor performance of the ATC wasn't a cause of the accident it doesn't excuse the fact that it was poor performance. The goal of safety is to saves lives and money, not to pass the buck.
I want to make clear that I'm not accusing the ATC in this accident of anything. I think the initial report suggests that the primary cause rests with pilots. I reject, however, the idea that the performance of the ATC in this accident is something that should not be queried closely. I'd expect the final report to address this aspect fully and in due course.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 618
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've just been reading a statement issued on behalf of the partner of the co-pilot who clearly feels that the crew were in a situation that they should never have been in. She seems to imply that Manx2 were the employer, not Flightline the AOC holder and also seems to imply that Manx2 were responsible for the rostering that put an inexperienced Captain and First Officer together. Does Manx2 exert that level of operational control over the airlines that it uses?
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 18,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As judge says, who do you 'tell' and how do you ensure that ATC know the minima for each approach? I certainly think the idea has huge merit but getting it implemented ICAO-wide................................ Aircraft from where-is-it-istan on approach in 400m rvr - what are his minima? One obvious solution would be to have it declared on initial contact but how do you know if it is right?
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Worldwide
Posts: 1,468
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And just which one of the supposedly regulating authorites would one inform?
Airline - no responsiblity (it thinks) and happy with whatever needs to be done to keep the schedule on track; AOC holder - wants to keep the contract; aircraft provider - wants to keep the contract; AOC's national CAA - probably NFI in a tin-pot airline several hundred miles away; UKCAA - well???; Irish CAA - ditto; IOM CAA - as Tinwald suggested, NFI and probably no jurisdiction to do anything so...............who?
Airline - no responsiblity (it thinks) and happy with whatever needs to be done to keep the schedule on track; AOC holder - wants to keep the contract; aircraft provider - wants to keep the contract; AOC's national CAA - probably NFI in a tin-pot airline several hundred miles away; UKCAA - well???; Irish CAA - ditto; IOM CAA - as Tinwald suggested, NFI and probably no jurisdiction to do anything so...............who?
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Irrespective, the Captain has to bear the responsibility. He did not stop the show when minima were being bust.
I wonder what the command requirements/experience for upgrade are with this company? One would have thought that perhaps this sort of mentality/attitude would have been identified during the command process and weeded out.
I wonder what the command requirements/experience for upgrade are with this company? One would have thought that perhaps this sort of mentality/attitude would have been identified during the command process and weeded out.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: UK
Age: 69
Posts: 475
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It will only get worse. We are firmly heading for disaster and heads are buried so deep in the sand its shocking.
Posters on PPRUNE can see the writing on the wall yet the regulators can't!
Yes we will in the future quite often be saying "I told you so"
http://easa.europa.eu/rulemaking/doc...%202010-09.pdf
Posters on PPRUNE can see the writing on the wall yet the regulators can't!
Yes we will in the future quite often be saying "I told you so"
http://easa.europa.eu/rulemaking/doc...%202010-09.pdf
Two comments:-
I believe that the likelihood of anyone committing an offence is significantly reduced when the majority of instances of doing so are detected and dealt with appropriately by the authorities. It is not, IMHO, the job of ATC to "police" the system but there should be a framework where "offences" come to light and are investigated. Operators have to declare the weather minima they are working to and this could be contained in a database. The appropriate weather minima passed by ATC on the approach is recorded on the system. This would throw up any discrepancies which could be investigated. If, as it seems, this operator had a history of busting minima this would have been readily detected. That said, I find it most disappointing that professional pilots would have to be monitored in this respect.
I feel very sorry for the first officer on this aircraft who was qualified but inexperienced. I am not sure how I would have reacted when I was at his experience level but would like to think that I would have brought any illegal actions to the attention of the commander. Is it appropriate to ask the question as to the discipline, training and guidance which he received during basic training for his licence? By this I am not intending to criticise the training he received which presumably was in accordance with the syllabus but is this an area of training which should be covered? In short, should pilots be given "assertiveness training"?
I believe that the likelihood of anyone committing an offence is significantly reduced when the majority of instances of doing so are detected and dealt with appropriately by the authorities. It is not, IMHO, the job of ATC to "police" the system but there should be a framework where "offences" come to light and are investigated. Operators have to declare the weather minima they are working to and this could be contained in a database. The appropriate weather minima passed by ATC on the approach is recorded on the system. This would throw up any discrepancies which could be investigated. If, as it seems, this operator had a history of busting minima this would have been readily detected. That said, I find it most disappointing that professional pilots would have to be monitored in this respect.
I feel very sorry for the first officer on this aircraft who was qualified but inexperienced. I am not sure how I would have reacted when I was at his experience level but would like to think that I would have brought any illegal actions to the attention of the commander. Is it appropriate to ask the question as to the discipline, training and guidance which he received during basic training for his licence? By this I am not intending to criticise the training he received which presumably was in accordance with the syllabus but is this an area of training which should be covered? In short, should pilots be given "assertiveness training"?
I had it in my mind that as soon as Low Visibility Procedures were put in force then ATC had to record and keep the details of every flight that made a CAT II or CAT III approach? It was then up to the local IAA/CAA/LBA etc etc to check that the operators, aircraft and crews flying approaches in LVP conditions were indeed properly trained and authorised.
I was certainly checked by the local authorities at an airfield east of Berlin one morning after a CAT II approach and landing. (Needless to say, all was in order).
Perhaps one of our ATC brethern could comment?
I was certainly checked by the local authorities at an airfield east of Berlin one morning after a CAT II approach and landing. (Needless to say, all was in order).
Perhaps one of our ATC brethern could comment?