Air India Near Death Incident

[TopTup]

HA! Nah... no John le Carre novel going on!! While it is obvious B7xx's opinions do/did still differ from mine he has had the integrity to welcome an open dialogue. We've swapped a few PM's and I hope to continue to. No, no airline is perfect but it takes people to WANT to part of the solution as opposed to the problem that steers things on the right course. It is not that we disagree, it is the fact that we are allowed to disagree, welcome someone else's opinion and look for the common good, not the bad. FForward has also sought to join in the discussion, which is also welcomed. In PM's more detail and openess can be expressed.

Now for the fun.....Royskaria:
To start with, please go back and review any and all of my posts (take your time, I typed them slowly for the likes of you). Find but ONE comment where I have not endorsed nationals being employed over locals IF safety cannot be compromised, or where unemployed nationals should be employed over expats AND receive the training they are entitled to. Before you start, try and remove your xenophobic glasses.

Blame the expat! You've single-handedly found the solution to all of India's woes!! GENIUS! So, if I may ask:
- did the expat employ him/herself or did (for example) AI screen these pilots first via a sim check, etc? They passed hence they were employed. Of course, the fault of the expat for allowing that holier than holy TRI/TRE to pass him!!
- did / do the agencies or the likes of AI do a complete background check of credentials, experience, etc or did the deceitful expat "get away with it" due the pathetic "standards"? Yep....expat's fault again!
- did the expat Capt in the Mangalore accident not go-around when called by the national FO? Also, did the national FO assume control and take over? Of course.....expat's fault entirely on this one!!!
- government decrees to remove all expats by said date, yet they're still there AND being employed! Obviously those dirty, sneaky expats are causing this corruption and complete ignorance of these decrees!
- any pilot not submitting a full and timely report (as in this case it appears) would / should be severely punished via his employ due a complete failure to adhere to airline SOPs as well as the regulatory body's CAR's.....did this happen (anyone got the truth?) or not....of course! The expat's fault for a failure of the "safety" (lucky) department at AI!
- those damn expats are to blame for the corruption and the lining fo the pockets by the managers in the numerous department siphoning off money as a direct result and circumstance of the expat contracts. Sneaky and devious expats agin!!!
- And fancy those expats FORCING the rostering department to keep them in 5 star hotels for weeks on end doing NOTHING!! I mean really! Just plain rude. The computerized rostering system that was paid for in full yet not used is to be blamed on the expats! If only the damn thing would run on JW Blue like the chief of the rostering dept then I'm sure things would run a lot more efficient! And to think AI would save 60% on their accommodation expenses (quote from member of AI's accommodation committee) if they placed the expats in serviced long term apartments.... Then again, how would the back-handed deals at the present hotels operate if this were the case. Expats...you are so RUDE!
- REMOVE THE EXPATS so the clean living, un-corruptable, efficient, honest, hard working and morals-above-question managers at the DGCA and airlines like AI can PLEASE get on with their job!!!

Royskaria, thanks for pointing this out to the wider community.

IndAir: perhaps this baby's crying of highlighting the corruption, nepotism, lower than low standards (criminally negligent in my opinion) of AI - including nationals and expat pilots alike - may, just may waken some people to wake the hell up. Of course, you have to WANT to see the bad to ever hope to be part of a change for the better. If nothing's wrong then what on earth needs to be fixed? Head in the sand. Plain and simple.

So many of you argue against me, yet not ONE person to date has challenged me on FACTS to prove me wrong. And where I am wrong then I will gladly admit it. Just back it up if you want to stand it up.

That's it kids. I'd rather continue swapping PM's with people wanting to have a professional difference of opinion, share facts and share knowledge rather than fight ignorance and "the world is flat" mentality.

As I've quoted before, in the words of the great Homer Simpson: "All the world is stupid but me."

[olepilot]

...and thats why Dawkins don't debate creationists!

[royskaria]

anyway I was always against deregulation but if this is what happens when one Airline controls a country than I may have changed my mind.....

There was a time back in the 80's when Air India was the sole indian carrier flying international while another state owned carried Indian Airlines operated domestic and regional flights (kind of like the BOAC and BEA).

But since the 90's we have had an open skies policy allowing private Indian owned carriers like Jet and KingFisher among others.

So it is a deregulated market and AI is not the only game in town. In fact it is number 3 or 4 in terms of market share with Jet and KF leading.

TopTup

baby? awww! sorry honey, you will have to take your sweet talk someplace else!

well TopTup and I agree on one thing: that there is corruption in AI and they should really be more stringent in its recruitment standards: I really hope they pull up procedures to ensure that professional whiners and "keyboard warriors" of the kind we see here, are kept out of the Air India cockpits.

If Ms.Fonda had actually read my post he would have seen how I held Indian carriers equally at fault for recruiting expats and the reason why this is continuing is the potential for cuts that expat recruitment provides. The situation is sad really: there are a multitude of contractors/agents/pimps (insert suitable word of choice: mean the same thing), who have wormed their way into the airlines: and its not just air india. Recruiting expats is a lucrative business, far more than recruiting a lowly but wholly qualified indian.

Expat recruitment via one of these agency/pimps ensures cuts for not just the agents but others in the chain as well. And a casual look at the list of these pimps reveals that most of them are either ex-Air India staffers or the son/brother/mother in law of someone working at the airline.

This cut system ensures the unhealthy trend of recruiting more and more less-qualified expats at the expense of locals. Its one thing when this is done to tide over a shortage of pilots (as was the case in 2004). But quite another when it becomes the norm.

And one cannot ignore the fact that most of the incidents/accidents in Indian aviation since 2007 onwards can be attributed to an expat pilot. There may be reasons for that (separate discussion): but one cannot overlook this fact when exploring alternatives.

And yes: One major benefit of keeping expats out would be a lot less whining on forums like these.

Find but ONE comment where I have not endorsed nationals being employed over locals IF safety cannot be compromised,

Aaah! so safety is compromised when locals are employed? All these incidents documented in the past 3.5 years happened with local pilots at the helm? Yes Ms.tipTop: someone had to say it and that someone had to be you: the white man is infinitely more qualified to fly and us natives should be thankful to the sahib for keeping our skies safe!

[fullforward]

Roskaria Et Alia

Why you boys don't accept TOPTUP suggestion and try to deny with FACTS all his arguments?
He pointed out straight facts he witnessed or were involved with, why keep this teenage backfiring?

[royskaria]

@fullforward: we would do that sir, if only Ms.Fonda would venture out with some facts on the public domain.

But i think all the "facts" at his disposal are kept aside for those mysterious PM's he sends out to the fortunate few. All we have seen on the public domain are ill-informed rants that border on the racist.

Perhaps there is a reason for his bitterness (there usually is). Perhaps he was fired wrongly (or perhaps not so wrongly). Perhaps what he needs is a good lawyer. or maybe just a good pharmacist.


Keeping Ms.fonda's rants aside, I would rather use this opportunity to get to the root of why so many incidents are happening with such regularity to expat pilots. Is there a larger reason? Something we are missing?

[Challenger05]

Dawkins???

I thought it was Darwin didnt fight the creationists..

[royskaria]

you are qualified to post here on standards, simulator and aircraft proficiency, NNP's (sorry! I used an acronym that a PPL wouldn't understand: Non Normal Procedures), heavy jet management, fast jet & high altitude aerodynamics, multi crew co-ordination, CRM/TER (google those ones for yourself)..... Best seek a non-white person's knowledge on some of those so the source is reliable.

We dont need to be a CPL holder to spot and point out a ranting troll making wild and baseless allegations.

Thats all you, a so called CPL holder has done on this thread: make unsubstantiated rants (AGAIN for the umpteenth time) about Air India: probably your former employer.

We all are beginning to understand why AI (and other airlines) probably let you go. it would be dangerous to have someone so high-strung in the cockpit.

We are not anti-expat at all: lord knows it would be fun having some of you fellas around! We just want the whiners out! It is simple TopTup: If you dont like it, dont take it!

Why spoil it for EVERYBODY with your endless and baseless rants? Rants not backed up btw by a shred of evidence till date if i may add!

There are lots of people out here, indian/non-indian, perfectly qualified (and less high-strung) who would do perfectly well in the airline that kicked TopTup out.

To the others: Top Tups baseless rants should not become the basis of your choices. We dont judge all expats by the same yardstick. There are good people and bad people everywhere. And then there are the looney-tunes cases!

TopTup has an agenda against an airline that decided to fire him: now is that surprising? He needs our help and support. (and probably some Calmpose in place of the Kool-Aid).

[doubleu-anker]

The solution has been found apparently!

Medical checks for foreign pilots now a must - The Times of India

[Boeing7xx]

Be the change you want to be.

It is easy pointing fingers all over. Take a page from TopTup, there's a lot to learn from him. While we still do disagree on some issues, at least TopTup has the decency to come up with solutions rather than nitpick all over the place. In all my years, I only have but one regret that I did not get an opportunity to share the deck with him.

TopTup provided me with 2 suggestions which I've implemented to the hilt in the last couple of sectors, it has helped. 3 other captains have joined in. In the end, it is up to those who work to make the change happen. Remember that the bad apples are few, but if we let them overpower or overwhelm us it is our fault, not theirs. They do not have any other recourse but to resort to below-the-belt measures, but we do.

For those of you who wish to launch personal attacks, please feel free to do so, it does not bother me anymore. It did earlier, but not now. If you wish to have a meaningful discussion I am more than open.

[fullforward]

Gentleman

Let's not waste our time with idiotics psycopaths like roskarias.
He's just having fun in pissing and ****ing himself out of the diapers, nothing serious about this.

[caulfield]

I concur with the sentiments of the initial poster.The standard in ALL Indian airlines is very low but of course you cant say that because youre being racist.Their ATC is possibly the worst in the world too.Indian pilots fly using the AFDS and if that goes,god help everyone behind because they aint got a clue.This is as true for the trainers as it is for the ab-intios.I wont fly home free,I prefer to pay and fly qantas.There I said it.If it makes me a racist,frankly I dont give a damn.Better a racist than a liar.

[IndAir967]

Their ATC is possibly the worst in the world too.

Biggest BS I ve heard/seen in recent times. Given the kind of equipment/resources they ve got to the volume of traffic they handle, Indian ATCO s are doing an incredible job. Its either you have not flown outside where you are from or you have not flown in Indian skies.

[royskaria]

Psycho? Yeah right! Where is the evidence Mr.TopTup?

Considering the tone and tenor of his posts so far, TopTup is clearly not psycholigically fit to be in the cockpit of a Cessna let alone an airliner.

Clearly he is bitter at being terminated from the airline and the bitterness shows in his posts. His rants are not based in fact but rooted in bitterness.

He has made tall claims and ludicrous allegations against the airlines, but has not so far provided a shred of evidence for any of these allegations. Atleast not on the public domain. If he really feels so strongly and his evidence is so strong, then he shouldnt have any reason to not post this info? Why hasnt he done that?

Indian aviation is better off without expat pilots like these. I would hope the DGCA and indeed indian carriers revamp their rules to ensure that local talent gets preference over poorly qualified expats.

[weido_salt]

royskaria

Do you agree with TopTup and most other people, that the DGCA is a corrupt bunch of self serving halfwits?

If you do I may have a little job for you. If not, then you are beyond help.

[fullforward]

This help to explain roskarias and lot of other things...

NATION
India Today NATION Story
Rajasthan: Fraud pilots busted

Rohit Parihar
November 13, 2010
Updated 00:00 IST


Rahul Yadav, a pilot with Indian Airlines who claims he has 1,000 flying hours with the country's official carrier, made the worst landing of his life on October 9. The 25-year-old cruised into jail when he was held by the Rajasthan Anti-Corruption Bureau (ACB) on charges of getting a commercial pilot's licence (CPL) with forged documents that show him having flown 200 hours when he has actually done only 22.


The Rajasthan state flying school at Sanganer near JaipurYadav, whose father is an official of the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA), is only one of 14 rogue pilots. The DGCA gave Yadav his CPL on the basis of documents submitted by the Rajasthan State Flying School at Sanganer near Jaipur. The school, though closed for two years now, is being investigated in 14 cases-India Today has the names-where students were falsely certified to having flown as many as 200 hours on single-engine Cessna 152 aircraft, including cross-country flying from places where the aircraft never landed.

While similar cases have been reported from Haryana's Hisar Flying club, Additional Director General of Police Ajit Singh Shekhawat, who heads the ACB, has asked the Central Bureau of Investigation to look into the possibility of a national-level racket. "The fraud has shocked us with the ease with which the lives of passengers have been put at risk," he says. The CBI has since started investigations and the scandal is expected to spread to other states.

Another young aspirant, Nidhi Vashist, became a 'pilot' by allegedly paying Rs 11 lakh. Her logbook displays 169 flying hours from the Jaipur flying school and the remaining from Karnal, Hisar and Patiala. Once she got her CPL, Vashist got a twin-engine flying completion certificate from the Philippines and applied for a licence from the DGCA. The DGCA, however, got suspicious when it found a solo flying entry when it should have been with another pilot. Upon inquiry, the centre denied having issued the certificate. This was last year when the Philippines faced many reports about such frauds, leading to a crackdown by the authorities.

Vashist alleged that Mahendra Kumar Chaudhary, chief flying instructor at the Jaipur school, had got her the twin-engine certificate for money. Vashisht demanded her money back and when Chaudhary refused, she went to the police. Chaudhary then issued two cheques for the entire amount to 'settle the matter', which bounced. Vashist then complained to the ACB. A cross-check with air maintenance garage, air traffic control (ATC), fuel records and logbook entries revealed that she actually flew for just 22 hours for which the fee was deposited. "Surprisingly, we found thatthe chief flying instructor of Hisar, Mahavir Singh Beniwal, had also certified her arrival, which points to a bigger and organised criminal activity," says Shekhawat. An arrest warrant has been issued against Beniwal.

Yadav was accorded a similar fake flight in March 2007. In his case, Chaudhary did not even enrol him for the 22 hours that he possibly actually flew. Yadav later did a 50-hour flying course from Canada, which is being looked into as well. Chaudhary has been identified as the brain behind the fake certification racket in Jaipur with the roles of executive and supervisory officers also being examined. He has been arrested twice and bailed out quickly but faces more cases. There have been instances when the ATC recorded 36 flights taking off but the flying instructor showed 178 for the same period. Chaudhary's counsel Ashu Singh refused to comment.

A certificate of certain hours of flying makes one eligible for enrolling at flying schools abroad. "It is necessary to investigate all flying licences issued in India, including those given on the basis of training in India or abroad," says Shekhawat.

The DGCA's certification system needs to be looked into to ascertain whether it makes regular visits and checks to ensure whether a flying school is adhering to given norms. It is surprising that flying data which is maintained at many places manually is not linked via a computer network, making it easy for it to be altered without being detected.

Investigators suspect several dimensions of fraud involving deliberate maintenance of shoddy records at various levels. Most of the 14 candidates identified so far are currently employed with various government and private airlines. The impunity with which rules were compromised raises serious doubts about the DGCA's supervising system as well as the recruitment procedures most airlines follow. With even co-pilots supposed to play a crucial role, the scam may make flying in India more dangerous than it already is.

[TopTup]

I saw this child's post prior to leaving for a flight.... 18 or so hours later and home I had time to think what to write back. Best answer: nothing. I've served my time, worked hard, studied hard over 30+ years & still love walking down that airbridge every flight.. Why should I bow down to a xenophobic PPL holder's pokes?

For the record, (as posted MANY, MANY times before!) I resigned from AI when confronted by members of the "Safety" and "Training" depts attempting to bully / force me to change a the fail grade I gave an AI Capt ("Cmdr") who was unable to land the 777 flying on raw data with a 15 kt x-wind in the 9W sim.

Integrity has no price.

(2 days later his "batchmate" passed him on a route check to DXB and back. My assessment was "lost". Authorities and airline were serviced with required reports).

I think FFwd has demonstrated evidence enough. My evidence is there for the world to see in previous posts.

If anyone wants to question me then go through my previous posts where ample examples and evidence has been given, as well as the opportunity to pursue allegations that an idiot could uncover. I'm not going to waste time re-writing them, going back through the (many) posts to please an immature, xenophobic PPL holder. Those who message me as well as those with the honesty and integrity to see where change is needed seem not to argue with me. Then again, they are "professional pilots". Expat and national alike.

Moderators, this thread has run it's course and died thanks to this child without a shred of professional aviation experience or knowledge.

Please shut it down.

[akerosid]

Have a read of this: some pretty scary circumstances:

Report: Air India Express B738 over Arabian Sea on May 26th 2010, inadvertent nose dive

One can only imagine what would have happened had the captain been unable to regain access to the cockpit ...

Bear in mind that this incident occurred only four days after the Mangalore crash.

[EuroPPL]

During the upset the airplane experienced vertical accelerations between -0.2G and +2.1G. All passengers were seated at the time of the upset and enjoying their dinner. No injuries occurred therefore.

Just how do you "enjoy your dinner" at -0.2g?

[jstars2]

Whitewash Alert

My former colleague recently received this from the expat captain involved in the near death incident:

In the attached ‘Flight Safety Bulletin’ of 11.02.2011, (see below) is it possible that General Manager (Flight Safety), Captain xxxxx, might have been referring to the flight of July 13, 2010 that I nearly died on… with more than 250 others?!!!

It is curious how he actually published something more than 7 months later and then references the ‘occasional’ stick shaker (mine was way past stick shaker and into a fully developed stall) as though such an event should almost be considered as a transient normal phase of flight or an inherent acceptable risk of aviation. Any stick shaker event under normal flight conditions (no Non-Normals present) is a reason to lose your license. I have only experienced stick shaker one time in my 36 years of flying…… which was one time too many….. and it was at Air India. Had I not sprung out of the jump seat to make sure the throttles were pushed to maximum thrust and the autopilot disengaged, and the bank and angle of attack lessened, Air India would have been minus one B-777. The aircraft recovered at less than 1000 feet above the ground. I assumed command shortly after the recovery and when the Indian captain had left the cockpit I proceeded to lecture both First Officers on the incident. They had no idea what had just happened nor how close they were to death. We were in a 30 degree bank at the time of stick shaker (and subsequently entered a fully developed stall buffet shortly thereafter until the bank angle and angle of attack was reduced). If that bottom wing had stalled, you would have had to dig us out of the 120 degree pitch and roll crater that would have certainly ensued.

In case you are curious, here is the India crew’s coordinated universal answer to the incident. This was the official email. (3 Indians – 1 expat. I refused to write a report without seeing the flight data. It was never shown to me and I was never called in)

After t/o, on r/w 29 (TOGA power), climbed on r/w hdg to 1700' and then turned left on a hdg of 190 deg climbing to 2600' as per the clearance. Autopilot was engaged at 1000 feet. As the thrust reduction altitude was flaps 1, the speed crossed flaps 15 and in no time rested near flaps 1 speed. To arrest the fast increasing speed, I had to momentarily disconnect autothrottle and slightly bring back thrust levers to arrest the speed and prevent it getting into VMO. In the meanwhile we were changed over to radar frequency, which gave us climb to FL70, which was executed by the FO. The a/c started to climb which led to drop in the speed that was arrested on time by pushing the thrust levers to full forward, disengaging autopilot and reducing body angle to gain speed. Thereafter the AP and the AT was engaged and normal flight resumed.

Acceleration height 1000 feet
Thrust reduction: flaps 1
TOGA power
END.

Without going into too much detail, this Indian dissertation bore little resemblance to the truth. First, seldom do you see an Indian captain fly up to 1000’ feet before connecting the autopilot! It didn’t happen this time either. He connected the autopilot at 200+ feet, he was very fast on airspeed and the autopilot captured the low altitude hold-down immediately. The throttles came to idle and he didn’t know why they were doing that so he disconnected them and forgot about it as he turned the corner…… while the F/O (100 hour Ab Initio) initiated a climb (instead of the captain who should have been the one to make any MCP inputs because the autopilot was still engaged at that time). The only reason he mentioned the flaps in his email report is because he thought that the airplane would tell on him for that and not the stall. He got fast on speed after the recovery because he was still at maximum power and didn’t know what to do next without the autothrottles. We oversped the flaps big time!!! But we were alive. If it weren’t so serious, the errors made would have made for a great aviation comedy. In fact it was a total ‘goat rope’ but with potentially grave consequences.

As a result the crew got ‘retraining’ consisting of signing the book in the black mould dungeon (aka Air India Training Centre) and supposedly got a simulator ride….and we all know how thorough those are! I submitted a U.S. NASA report via the ASRS system for the collection of data and did not get involved in the ‘Indian truth’.

I decided to take a ‘sabbatical’ because they weren’t paying me (they finally paid me 8 months late) and because the Indian captain involved has threatened me if I return to India.

They are still out there pretending to be pilots when they cannot fly safely without the autopilot. Beware.

Air India Flight Safety Bulletin. 11.02.2011
SUBJECT: FLIGHT DECK AUTOMATION
INTRODUCTION TO FSB:

During the investigation of a few incidents, where in momentary stick shaker was
experienced by the Pilots, and during Flight Data Recorder monitoring, it has been
observed that possible mismanagement of Flight Deck automation lead to such excursion.

Even in complex and highly automated aircraft, automation has its limits. In a dynamic situation, the pilots can lose situational awareness of the automation mode and may not understand the interaction between the automation and the phase of flight or pilot input. During training, pilots are taught to use that level of automation that best supports the operation of aircraft/phase of flight. Although the concept is correct, in a rapidly developing scenario, the pilot may not correctly understand what the automation is doing at that particular instant.

REASON FOR ISSUE:

Maximum numbers of incidents have occurred in the B777. The B777 has very high
thrust engines and at times the energy state is far in excess of that required. For e.g. The maximum take off weight in an ultra long haul flight is typically between 340 to 350 tons however, at times, especially on shorter flights, the take-off weight could be as low as 210 tons to 220 tons. In such cases, the maximum permitted reduction in thrust by way of assumed temperature would still leave a large quantum of excess thrust for the take-off and climb, resulting in a very high rate of climb and rapid acceleration. Low visibility and some other weather conditions may not permit use of Reduced Thrust by way of Assumed Temperature. On the other hand, at every high take-off weight, the performance is comparatively sluggish.

During Flight Data Recorder analysis it was observed that the stick shaker incidents
occurred mainly due to one or a combination of the following:

1. Manual flying with excess bank during flap retraction at heavy weights.

2. Early flap retraction without permitting the aircraft to accelerate at the expected rate.

3. The pilot may have induced or precipitated the event by improperly manipulating the automation/disengaging automation partially, e.g. Auto Pilot engaged but Auto Throttle disengaged etc.

RECOMMENDATIONS:

A thorough understanding of the auto flight system is essential. Although it is difficult
to define every possible scenario, pilots should visualize various possibilities and
mentally revise how they would tackle them. I.e. In a particular situation what should be the sequence of de-selecting auto flight systems, taking over manual flight control if required, and the sequence of reselecting auto-flight systems. Examples of reducing the level of automation are as given below but are not restricted to those given:

i) Controlling the speed by speed intervention in VNAV.
ii) Using Altitude Hold when required to level out at short notice during
climb/descent
iii) Using Heading Hold during turn when required to stop turn in place of using
Heading Select and then selecting the required Heading
iv) Changing from VNAV to Flt. Level Change
v) Changing from LNAV to HDG Select.

Examples of sequentially deselecting Auto Flight Systems are:

i) Auto Pilot disengaged with Auto Throttle engaged
ii) Both Auto Pilot and Auto Throttle disengaged but using flight Director.
iii) Both Auto Throttle and Auto Pilot disengaged and deselecting Flight Director.

Studying incidents which have occurred in the industry and learning from them,
discussing with experienced Training Captains, would help pilots to come up with the
best strategy to adopt when faced with various scenarios. Any exceedances should be recorded in the Flight Report Book and necessary reports be raised to facilitate early technical inspection. The exceedances will be detected later through the DFDR; however the aircraft may have flown without the necessary technical inspection in the interim period. Therefore, immediate reporting is mandatory.

(Issued/Signed)
CAPT. XXXXX
GENERAL MANAGER-INCHARGE (FLIGHT SAFETY)

[Anotherpost75]

Quote from what appears to be the Air India General Manager (Flight Safety)

During the investigation of a few incidents, where in momentary stick shaker was experienced by the Pilots, and during Flight Data Recorder monitoring, it has been observed that possible mismanagement of Flight Deck automation lead to such excursion.

During Flight Data Recorder analysis it was observed that the stick shaker incidents
occurred mainly due to one or a combination of the following:

1. Manual flying with excess bank during flap retraction at heavy weights.

2. Early flap retraction without permitting the aircraft to accelerate at the expected rate.

3. The pilot may have induced or precipitated the event by improperly manipulating the automation/disengaging automation partially, e.g. Auto Pilot engaged but Auto Throttle disengaged etc.

Seems like stick shaker activation is an everyday occurrence in Air India!