UPS Aircraft Down In Dubai
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This is a very unfortunate accident indeed.
Im sure the causes will be determined soon. I will follow with great interest.
Im also of the conclusion these pilots were highly trained and the problem encountered were most likely unpreceeced.
Also one of the previous posts above where 30W was mentioned it really shows you the options or lack of options is available.
Im sure the causes will be determined soon. I will follow with great interest.
Im also of the conclusion these pilots were highly trained and the problem encountered were most likely unpreceeced.
Also one of the previous posts above where 30W was mentioned it really shows you the options or lack of options is available.
CYVR...
Hi Pottermore.
some thread drift, but related:
The company however was very happy that the aircraft was in CYVR... A while after that interference with operational decision making by OCC, another A330 flying from the land of the "not quite right" to the land of clockmakers with a Canadian captain had a report from the cabin crew of smoke in the CCRF. The crew diverted immediately to the nearest airport, Helsinki. Landed. No sign of smoke or fire.
Story had been that the "no airflow" annunciator had illuminated in the CCRF, and the local alarm had sounded. The cabin crew member confused that with a fire/smoke alarm and called the flight deck, stating "smoke". As she exited the area, she fired off the fire extinguisher.
The cockpit crew having been alerted to "smoke" called the purser who went down to check and lifted the trapdoor... "smoke" (extinguishant) flowed out and was reported as "smoke" again by the purser at the same time the cockpit got an ECAM msg of "smoke" detected.
Off they divert. 2 hrs on grd in Finland, and then off to clockmaker land.
Big deal.... except... after return to "not right" land, the company CEO complains.... DOO complains and the captain and FO are withheld for a few weeks and eventually get the pleasure of doing another CRM course for their sins.
Reinforcement works both ways.
It took less time to impact the operation than to tell the story, almost. Within 48hrs a new crew was told not to respond to fire warnings as the CEO was p@@@ed off with the outcome. After that? over a dozen fire warnings not responded to iaw the QRH procedure. Apparently all things between the cover of the QRH became negotiable subject to CEO approval (interference)...
There will be another pepsi cola sign established temporarily at great cost somewhere in the side of a hill (my money is still on Katmandu) at great cost and angst. In the wash up all parties will wring their hands and ponder how such a "compliant" program can have had such a bad day.... as happens. "Just bad luck. Could happen to anyone" Maybe so. Maybe a pathological program...
As before, it will take at least 3 losses with dead bodies before anyone reacts.
some thread drift, but related:
The company however was very happy that the aircraft was in CYVR... A while after that interference with operational decision making by OCC, another A330 flying from the land of the "not quite right" to the land of clockmakers with a Canadian captain had a report from the cabin crew of smoke in the CCRF. The crew diverted immediately to the nearest airport, Helsinki. Landed. No sign of smoke or fire.
Story had been that the "no airflow" annunciator had illuminated in the CCRF, and the local alarm had sounded. The cabin crew member confused that with a fire/smoke alarm and called the flight deck, stating "smoke". As she exited the area, she fired off the fire extinguisher.
The cockpit crew having been alerted to "smoke" called the purser who went down to check and lifted the trapdoor... "smoke" (extinguishant) flowed out and was reported as "smoke" again by the purser at the same time the cockpit got an ECAM msg of "smoke" detected.
Off they divert. 2 hrs on grd in Finland, and then off to clockmaker land.
Big deal.... except... after return to "not right" land, the company CEO complains.... DOO complains and the captain and FO are withheld for a few weeks and eventually get the pleasure of doing another CRM course for their sins.
Reinforcement works both ways.
It took less time to impact the operation than to tell the story, almost. Within 48hrs a new crew was told not to respond to fire warnings as the CEO was p@@@ed off with the outcome. After that? over a dozen fire warnings not responded to iaw the QRH procedure. Apparently all things between the cover of the QRH became negotiable subject to CEO approval (interference)...
There will be another pepsi cola sign established temporarily at great cost somewhere in the side of a hill (my money is still on Katmandu) at great cost and angst. In the wash up all parties will wring their hands and ponder how such a "compliant" program can have had such a bad day.... as happens. "Just bad luck. Could happen to anyone" Maybe so. Maybe a pathological program...
As before, it will take at least 3 losses with dead bodies before anyone reacts.
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UPS Aircraft Down in Dubai
For years ALPA and other unions have advocated for better safety and security at cargo carriers. Their efforts stymied by the greedy management of those airlines and the lack of interest at FAA and other watch dog agencies.
This tragic accident hardly appeared on the radar screens of the US corporate controlled media. After all, there is not much sensational reporting there for a couple of lowly "freight dogs" getting killed in the middle of the night in some far out place such as DXB! I also wonder how much of that lack of interest was inversely proportional to the Dollars UPS spends in media advertising?
It is amazing that even a sophisticated 744 lacks the basic tools to fight or prevent smoke and fire onboard!
Many times I wished I could crack that side window and wondered what I would do in case of a real fire on my 747. Certainly not the same, as in the smoke evacuation procedure in the old trusty 707!
For some 40 years, I went through the routine of engine failures, silly circle to land or ADF approaches in proficiency or initial training to satisfy the regulators and "check the box" at the office! Yet, how much time and effort was dedicated to the most dangerous killer known to aviators, the "onboard fire?".... Hardly any!
Finally towards the end of my airline career I went through the most awkward and unprepared maneuver in training ever. Making one approach in the Sim with the full face mask and on standby instrument in a 777! The procedure so uncomfortable and cumbersome, even the check airman new to the procedure abandoned half way through!
With all the advances in simulation technology, how many operators have opted for real smoke in training devices?
A few Flight Attendant trainers use smoke which is very realistic and useful in their training.
In all those years I had only one "real" engine failure that was handled pretty routine, perhaps because of all the training. How many of us are prepared to handle a situation like the one that killed our defenseless comrades? Hazmat should never be carried onboard an aircraft. You cannot pull over the road and jump out of a burring airliner.
I don't know what really happened to those poor souls and I don't want to speculate on something we know nothing about, so early in the investigation. I hope and pray this had nothing to do with hazmat such as Lithium batteries or inadequate smoke and fire suppression equipment on that aircraft.
If so, I want Boeing, FAA and UPS management tried for our colleague's brutal murder!
Captain Ross "Rusty" Aimer (UAL Ret.)
This tragic accident hardly appeared on the radar screens of the US corporate controlled media. After all, there is not much sensational reporting there for a couple of lowly "freight dogs" getting killed in the middle of the night in some far out place such as DXB! I also wonder how much of that lack of interest was inversely proportional to the Dollars UPS spends in media advertising?
It is amazing that even a sophisticated 744 lacks the basic tools to fight or prevent smoke and fire onboard!
Many times I wished I could crack that side window and wondered what I would do in case of a real fire on my 747. Certainly not the same, as in the smoke evacuation procedure in the old trusty 707!
For some 40 years, I went through the routine of engine failures, silly circle to land or ADF approaches in proficiency or initial training to satisfy the regulators and "check the box" at the office! Yet, how much time and effort was dedicated to the most dangerous killer known to aviators, the "onboard fire?".... Hardly any!
Finally towards the end of my airline career I went through the most awkward and unprepared maneuver in training ever. Making one approach in the Sim with the full face mask and on standby instrument in a 777! The procedure so uncomfortable and cumbersome, even the check airman new to the procedure abandoned half way through!
With all the advances in simulation technology, how many operators have opted for real smoke in training devices?
A few Flight Attendant trainers use smoke which is very realistic and useful in their training.
In all those years I had only one "real" engine failure that was handled pretty routine, perhaps because of all the training. How many of us are prepared to handle a situation like the one that killed our defenseless comrades? Hazmat should never be carried onboard an aircraft. You cannot pull over the road and jump out of a burring airliner.
I don't know what really happened to those poor souls and I don't want to speculate on something we know nothing about, so early in the investigation. I hope and pray this had nothing to do with hazmat such as Lithium batteries or inadequate smoke and fire suppression equipment on that aircraft.
If so, I want Boeing, FAA and UPS management tried for our colleague's brutal murder!
Captain Ross "Rusty" Aimer (UAL Ret.)
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I hadn't realized the significance of the same date as SR-111. That airplane was probably as well placed as possible for a fire-caused diversion over the North Atlantic. It does seem to me that we ought to decide ahead of time that serious smoke means serious fire which in turn means put it on the ground -- a runway if possible -- but get out of the air. Ditchings are survivable -- loss of control isn't
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Capt rusty,
You hit the nail on the head.
Every sim check each 6 months is pretty much the same type of detail.
I agree, fire should be practised more and the relevant authorities should include this in the syabulss for all airlines
Circling to lands etc on the LST are procedures you are prepared for.
When something happens out of the norm. I.e. UPS last weekend that is not practised on a regular basis can bring unfavourable results.
You hit the nail on the head.
Every sim check each 6 months is pretty much the same type of detail.
I agree, fire should be practised more and the relevant authorities should include this in the syabulss for all airlines
Circling to lands etc on the LST are procedures you are prepared for.
When something happens out of the norm. I.e. UPS last weekend that is not practised on a regular basis can bring unfavourable results.
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I don't know what really happened to those poor souls and I don't want to speculate on something we know nothing about, so early in the investigation. I hope and pray this had nothing to do with hazmat such as Lithium batteries or inadequate smoke and fire suppression equipment on that aircraft.
If so, I want Boeing, FAA and UPS management tried for our colleague's brutal murder!
If so, I want Boeing, FAA and UPS management tried for our colleague's brutal murder!
I could make a pretty good one for freighters, it would however need a hose point for every pallet position, and each position would need a feed from four different channels of chemical, dependent on the freight there.
Unfortunately chemical fires do not have a "one size fits all" solution. For some fires, mostly simple organic ones, halon is a very good extinguisher. For alkali metals (other than Lithium) CO2 is a decent one, as is N2. For lithium batteries, H2O is the best. And for others there are combinations of the above, plus other interesting solutions such as aluminium hydroxide and boron compounds that can act as retardants.
It's best to prevent the fire rather than stop it. Carriage of DG is not inherently unsafe. Only unsafe practises make it this way.
This tragic accident hardly appeared on the radar screens of the US corporate controlled media
I once walked into the Pub and announced that I had just got back from New York, with a freighter. "When are you going to be considered experienced enough to fly passengers, then ? " was one comment.
Cynic ? wot me ?
It has been suggested that another crew member on board might have helped ? As a young pilot I was recruited only because the Union had insisted that all flight decks should contain 3 pilots, and this was in addition to a Flt. Engineer and Navigator ! The rationale being another pair of eyes to monitor the more crucial phases of the flight.
The Company then combined the roles of Nav. and P.3 such that I acted as P.3 for the crucial take-off and landing phases of flight, and navigated the bits in between, seemed to work OK, but now we are down to just two - this is "progress " ? and of course there is no evidence that another cew member would have made any difference, but it's a thought - remember how the 'spare' pilot helped save the DC-10 at Sioux City ?
The Classic 747 started with a periscopic sextant hatch in the middle of the flight deck roof, but even tho' INS made that superfluous, it was retained as a smoke removal hatch, i.e. it sucked ! Does the 744 have one ? and if it does could one of the only 2 pilots, strruggling anyway, have gone back to open it ?
Our 707 even had a steward on the freighter ! We were ridiculed by Macho Red-Neck Freighter Dogs, but it was another pair of hands.
I believe the long defunct Ansett airlines in Aus. demanded a Flt. Engineers panel on the Boeing 767 when they first introduced it, the modification cost probably helped their demise, but their logic was spot on.
A third salary is cheaper than the loss of a hull - and two lives.
Maybe.
Later - my apologies, when in doubt read the instructions ( first ! )
The smoke evacuation handle can be reached from the pilot seat without even having to loosen one's seatbelt.
Last edited by ExSp33db1rd; 7th Sep 2010 at 23:48.
With a little co-ordination, Bahrein could have changed all traffic to a secondary freq, allowing Dubai to use the Bahrein freq
as a discrete
as a discrete
Many years ago I was making an approach to when we heard an aircraft in trouble, He had lost his AH. We broke off our approach to
try and help the guy.
try and help the guy.
Said QFI, guided the pilot down safely, talking him through his actions.
Pilot lands safely after going blind in mid-air - World news - Weird news - msnbc.com
A little bit more different in a Jumbo, but principal is the same in dire needs.
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Do all airports have 121.5 ?
If so maybe the first thing on the check list should be establish contact on 121.5
I vaguely remember one major aiprort in the UK had a Notam saying no longer had 121.5, if so are there many airports with out this important frequency.
Also reading the posts about the problems of sight, what about having a big voice to give major info like heading speed and v/speed the info is sent to the fma so would not be that difficult to send info voice.
just some thoughts
If so maybe the first thing on the check list should be establish contact on 121.5
I vaguely remember one major aiprort in the UK had a Notam saying no longer had 121.5, if so are there many airports with out this important frequency.
Also reading the posts about the problems of sight, what about having a big voice to give major info like heading speed and v/speed the info is sent to the fma so would not be that difficult to send info voice.
just some thoughts
Last edited by icemanalgeria; 8th Sep 2010 at 00:13. Reason: typos
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WASHINGTON – The fire that broke out in a UPS plane that crashed last week in Dubai, killing both pilots, appears to have begun in a cargo compartment, according to people familiar with the accident investigation.
Accident investigators are now trying to verify which cargo aboard the Boeing 747-400 was located just forward of the starboard wing, where the fire erupted, those familiar with the investigation said. Investigators also want to know if there were any lithium-ion batteries in that location. If a battery short-circuits, it can catch fire and ignite others.
The location of the fire was identified so quickly because the plane was equipped with a sophisticated data transmission system that sent information via satellite to the company's airline operations headquarters in Louisville, Ky. The transmissions are so fast, people familiar with the investigation said, that UPS' airline operations half a world away had information in hand indicating the plane was in serious trouble before it crashed.
Accident investigators are now trying to verify which cargo aboard the Boeing 747-400 was located just forward of the starboard wing, where the fire erupted, those familiar with the investigation said. Investigators also want to know if there were any lithium-ion batteries in that location. If a battery short-circuits, it can catch fire and ignite others.
The location of the fire was identified so quickly because the plane was equipped with a sophisticated data transmission system that sent information via satellite to the company's airline operations headquarters in Louisville, Ky. The transmissions are so fast, people familiar with the investigation said, that UPS' airline operations half a world away had information in hand indicating the plane was in serious trouble before it crashed.
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The transmissions are so fast, people familiar with the investigation said, that UPS' airline operations half a world away had information in hand indicating the plane was in serious trouble before it crashed.
Iceman- 121.5 is regularly used by ATS units in this part of the world.
Come on, they cant pin point the location of flight AF447 because of lack of bandwidth back to the "mother ship".
But they can keep a sly eye on any cargo aircraft to find out which pallet is loaded at which inch on the aircraft.
But they can keep a sly eye on any cargo aircraft to find out which pallet is loaded at which inch on the aircraft.
Last edited by MATELO; 8th Sep 2010 at 11:46.
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Come on, they cant pin point the location of flight AF447 because of lack of bandwidth back to the "mother ship". But they can keep a sly eye on any cargo aircraft to find out which pallet is loaded at which inch on the aircraft. Do me a favour.
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Quote from Yahoo New Article:
"The location of the fire was identified so quickly because the plane was equipped with a sophisticated data transmission system that sent information via satellite to the company's airline operations headquarters in Louisville, Ky. The transmissions are so fast, people familiar with the investigation said, that UPS' airline operations half a world away had information in hand indicating the plane was in serious trouble before it crashed."
"Among the data transmitted ahead of the Dubai crash, according to people familiar with the investigation, was an alert about a serious problem in the cargo compartment near the starboard wing."
Wow, if the company had the information this quick I'm sure the dispatcher that shared joint responsibility would have loved to have this information.
So the company receives important information indicating the plane was in serious trouble and chose to not disseminate it? If this is true, the Feds might have some questions about this. Why have such sophisticated equipment on board and not utilize it to its full extent?
"The location of the fire was identified so quickly because the plane was equipped with a sophisticated data transmission system that sent information via satellite to the company's airline operations headquarters in Louisville, Ky. The transmissions are so fast, people familiar with the investigation said, that UPS' airline operations half a world away had information in hand indicating the plane was in serious trouble before it crashed."
"Among the data transmitted ahead of the Dubai crash, according to people familiar with the investigation, was an alert about a serious problem in the cargo compartment near the starboard wing."
Wow, if the company had the information this quick I'm sure the dispatcher that shared joint responsibility would have loved to have this information.
So the company receives important information indicating the plane was in serious trouble and chose to not disseminate it? If this is true, the Feds might have some questions about this. Why have such sophisticated equipment on board and not utilize it to its full extent?
UPS and Data Transmit
UPS has done some very interesting things with avionics so it would not surprise me that they would have sophisticated inflight data transmit capabilities.
They owned an avionics company for a while, (they sold it to Garmin), and sold the first WAAS GPS in the US. They have installed a GPS ground tracking system to let them speed taxi way flow at their hub. (Like Fedex at Memphis, UPS runs the ATC at Louisville at night).
That they would have info in their ops center in real time is hardly suprising.
20driver
They owned an avionics company for a while, (they sold it to Garmin), and sold the first WAAS GPS in the US. They have installed a GPS ground tracking system to let them speed taxi way flow at their hub. (Like Fedex at Memphis, UPS runs the ATC at Louisville at night).
That they would have info in their ops center in real time is hardly suprising.
20driver
matelo...
Ease up on that control column a tad...
SaturnV was simply posting an item from AP that is typical of today's media -- overblown and sensationalist -- but based on some little nut of fact.
That fact is that an ACARS type system no doubt gave the UPS Ops Center 20 or 30 minutes of messages related to flags and failures. You can be certain that everyone in that Ops Center went through a form of agony similar to those who were listening on VHF.
grizz
Ease up on that control column a tad...
SaturnV was simply posting an item from AP that is typical of today's media -- overblown and sensationalist -- but based on some little nut of fact.
That fact is that an ACARS type system no doubt gave the UPS Ops Center 20 or 30 minutes of messages related to flags and failures. You can be certain that everyone in that Ops Center went through a form of agony similar to those who were listening on VHF.
grizz
Last edited by grizzled; 8th Sep 2010 at 02:08.