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UPS Aircraft Down In Dubai

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UPS Aircraft Down In Dubai

Old 9th Sep 2010, 23:46
  #441 (permalink)  
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Remember the first Hostesses were trained nurses. Pax tend to forget or not know that CC are really there for the emergency situation and as said above serve tea and coffee in their "spare" time.

Originally Posted by Huck
It would be interesting to look at the relative manning requirements of the maritime industry.
This too is getting scary. Have a look at slide 8 in this link.

World's Largest Container Ship Ppt Presentation
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Old 10th Sep 2010, 00:31
  #442 (permalink)  
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Fires are feared by sailors and aviators alike.

The difference is that on a ship there are off-duty crewmembers to fight it, with lots of FF equipment. And if they lose the fight, they can leave the bridge, the engineroom, or in the ultimate case, the ship.

The two UPS pilots couldn't...

Btw; that fire on the Emma Maersk destroyed her superstructure while still under construction. The shipyard cut it off and replaced it with one that had already been built for a sister ship. No casualties.
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Old 10th Sep 2010, 03:10
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Fires are feared by sailors and aviators alike.

The difference is that on a ship there are off-duty crewmembers to fight it, with lots of FF equipment. And if they lose the fight, they can leave the bridge, the engineroom, or in the ultimate case, the ship.

The two UPS pilots couldn't...
In order to continue along these lines of comparison, we must also examine the assumptions in the design of the vessels relative to detection, confinement, extinguishing options and time assumptions to complete a safe flight/docking and get the hell out of the vessel.

Of course I am interested in the facts and the design/regulatory/training assumptions. Having very liitle to go by so early in the investigation for the subject accident I can not judge any comparisons between mariners and cargo flights.

But no harm in showing how it's suppose to work in other than aviation fields
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Old 10th Sep 2010, 04:18
  #444 (permalink)  
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When I transitioned from the 727 to the 737 I truly missed the FE. I started as an FE, then FO and finally Capt., so I know how valuable the FE is from several perspectives...

On my 1st airline, all FE's were also pilots and SOP for the approach briefing including showing the approach plate to the F/E...On one or two occasions I actually caught a mistake in the making by the guys up front, as I myself have been saved by my own FE...

In the 727, if there was a commotion in the cabin, or in cargo ops a strange noise or thump or bang coming from the back it was very reassuring to turn around and ask the FE to "Go back there and see what's going on".

Can't do that on a 2 crew A/C...

Paramedics are not the answer as I don't think there has ever been a catastrophic event in aviation due to a "seriously ill" or incapiciated pax...
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Old 10th Sep 2010, 04:55
  #445 (permalink)  
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Don't forget the abundance of the most common firefighting material, water.


Virgin had a ground incident (with damage to the aircraft) after a medical diversion somewhere in Canada. I think it was either in 07 or 08.

Rwy in Sight
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Old 10th Sep 2010, 08:05
  #446 (permalink)  
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The Nav/FE fire brigade

My father is former USAF. There have been abundant opportunities for me to meet and chat with other old-school, now-retired USAF flight crew at various events.

From the former members of USAF's heavy, multiengine, multicrew jets, I have heard many stories about potentially serious fires in or near the flight deck -- fires which had been located and safely extinguished as a result of the immediate attention brought to bear on the fire by either a navigator or a flight engineer.

Considerable design time has been lavished on carefully automating all of the official, routine duties of navigators and flight engineers. However, this can easily blind designers to the fact that there were many unofficial, non-routine exertions often carried out by such members of the crew, especially under emergency circumstances, and these are unlikely to be addressed by even superbly foresighted automation.
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Old 10th Sep 2010, 09:55
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With improved communications, pilots took over the duties of the Radio Operators, with their morse key.

With improved Navigation techniques e.g. INS and GPS, pilots took over the duties of the navigators, with their sextants

With improved technology, pilots took over the duties of the Flight Engineers, with their slide rules and detailed knowledge of the systems.

No problem, until something goes wrong, then pilots have to do not only their own jobs, but all the other tasks that they have taken on. ( often to enhance their own remuneration.)

Unfortunately, pilots are still the same Homo Sapiens that once had assistance - now they are on their own.

System overload, in moden parlance, can erode the safety margins, we haven't yet bred a breed of SuperPilots.

But this is " progress " ?

We don't know what went on in Dubai, but I bet that crew wouldn't have refused another pair of hands, and/or eyes had they been available.
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Old 10th Sep 2010, 11:56
  #448 (permalink)  
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WilyB..."Airlines these days use the Tempus IC machine which transmits vital signs to trusted medical support with simultaneous voice and video."

Thanks for the info....I knew that SOME operators used this type of service....didn't know how widespread it was......
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Old 10th Sep 2010, 11:58
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Aviation and maritime...

Interesting parallels between aviation and maritime but some differences If we compare a 747-400 freighter with the equivalent in the maritime world you would get a container ship such as the Maersk Emma. A few numbers

Length: 1200ft
Width: 170 ft
Weight: 200 000 tons fully loaded
Single engine of 88 000 kW
Speed: 25 knots
Cruising range: 50 days / 30 000 miles
Crew: 13 for round the clock operations.

At night, in high seas navigation a single person on duty at the bridge is enough. (Fully automated engines). No doctor. At best, a paramedic trained crewmember.
Different world, really!
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Old 10th Sep 2010, 12:55
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BC-US--Dubai-Plane Crash-Fire,1st Ld-Writethru, US
Published: Tuesday, 7 Sep 2010 | 7:40 PM ET
WASHINGTON - The fire that broke out in a UPS plane that crashed last week in Dubai, killing both pilots, appears to have begun in a cargo compartment, according to people familiar with the accident investigation.

Accident investigators are now trying to verify which cargo aboard the Boeing 747-400 was located just forward of the starboard wing, where the fire erupted, those familiar with the investigation said. Investigators also want to know if there were any lithium-ion batteries in that location. If a battery short-circuits, it can catch fire and ignite others.

The location of the fire was identified so quickly because the plane was equipped with a sophisticated data transmission system that sent information via satellite to the company's airline operations headquarters in Louisville, Ky. The transmissions are so fast, people familiar with the investigation said, that UPS' airline operations half a world away had information in hand indicating the plane was in serious trouble before it crashed.

Those familiar with the investigation who discussed the preliminary findings asked not to be identified because they weren't authorized to speak publicly.

Atlanta-based UPS, formally known as United Parcel Service Inc., has identified the crew members killed in the crash as Capt. Doug Lampe of Louisville, Ky., 48, and First Officer Matthew Bell, 38, of Sanford, Fla. Lampe had been with UPS since 1995. Bell had been with the company since 2006. Both flew out of UPS's Anchorage, Alaska, pilot base.

UPS spokesman Mike Mangeot confirmed that the crashed plane was equipped with an airline health maintenance system, Boeing's name for the transmission system. He declined to comment directly on the crash or what information the company received from the plane before the accident.

AHM systems help "self-diagnose" problems in flight and alert the airline before landing so that maintenance workers are ready to do repairs and parts are on hand. The systems aren't standard on Boeing planes, but the company has been installing them on 747-400s for customers who request them for about five years, said Boeing spokesman Jim Proulx.

Among the data transmitted ahead of the Dubai crash, according to people familiar with the investigation, was an alert about a serious problem in the cargo compartment near the starboard wing.

The plane's pilots also told air traffic controllers that a fire had broken out in the main compartment, and smoke was so thick that they were having trouble reading their instruments, people familiar with the investigation said.

Among the issues raised by the crash is whether FAA should require equipment be installed in cockpits that would enable pilots to read instruments in most modern airliners that amounts to computer screens even in heavy smoke. Pilot unions have been pressing for the equipment.

Pilots have limited options for extinguishing a fire in a cargo compartment, said aviation safety consultant Jack Casey. A continuously smoky fire is especially difficult, Casey said, because it interferes with pilots' ability to breathe and see well enough to fly the plane.

The investigation is being led by UAE's aviation authority, but a team led by the National Transportation Safety Board has flown to Dubai to assist the investigation.

A preliminary report released by UAE authorities on Sunday said the crew reported smoke in the cockpit about 20 minutes after taking off from Dubai on a flight to a UPS hub in Cologne, Germany. Air controllers in the nearby Gulf nation of Bahrain said the plane was returning to Dubai. But the crew on Flight 6 did not speak directly with the Dubai tower. For reasons still unclear, the crew could not switch from the Bahrain to the Dubai radio frequency.

The plane was not in the proper alignment to make an emergency landing in Dubai on its first pass, but then began losing altitude and crashed inside a UAE military camp, authorities said.

Investigators also want to exam the plane's flight data recorder which also monitors the plane's systems to see if it verifies the information received through the AHM system. The data recorder and the cockpit voice recorder will be sent to the United States for analysis, UAE authorities said.
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Old 10th Sep 2010, 16:16
  #451 (permalink)  
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For reasons still unclear, the crew could not switch from the Bahrain to the Dubai radio frequency.
Possibly because the crew could not see the frequency display/selectors due to smoke?
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Old 10th Sep 2010, 16:19
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"In the 727, if there was a commotion in the cabin, or in cargo ops a strange noise or thump or bang coming from the back it was very reassuring to turn around and ask the FE to "Go back there and see what's going on".

Can't do that on a 2 crew A/C..."

Why not?

You can go to the toilet, you can go and heat the food, you can go and "stretch your legs", you can take a 40 minute nap in your seat.

But you can't ask your F/O go back and check out a strange noise?

Of course you can! It should even be the first thing you do.
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Old 10th Sep 2010, 16:34
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While we are at it, and it seems to be the latest great idea of many of you out there is to have a third crew member who is a combination of:

a. The holder of an ATPL with a type rating.
b. A qualified loadmaster.
c. A qualified fire-fighter.
d. A qualified paramedic.
e. A F/E who can even fix the toilet (when he is doing none of the above).

Can I suggest that this extra chap (or chapess) is also qualified to give the last rites in at least five of the world's major religions?

I really, really seriously doubt that the presence of a third crew member on this aircraft would have made a blind bit of difference.

The outcome would have been three deaths instead of two.

I just thank God that I wasn't on that flight deck and I am sure that our two professional comrades did their very, very best in the circumstances.
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Old 10th Sep 2010, 16:46
  #454 (permalink)  
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FA's are Paramedics and FF's ???

UMMM not quite. Case in point. My last trip back to DXB. DL from MEM to AMS and KLM home Aug 14th. About midflight, girl having difficulty walking up the aisle, I look and she appears to having a physical limitation that of polio or CP. She attempts to pass by me and was I was about to ask if I could help, she goes back and is unresponsive. I get up and ask for CC to turn on lights, bring me emergency equipment and 02 and notify flight deck. Out of both of the mouths of these 2 are " we don't know how to turn on the 02, we're formerly NWA crew. There is no AED on board ( or they couldn't decipher an AED from a DVD player. So shame on the CC for taking responsibility of these passengers safety and shame on management for allowing them to without proper check off of this equipment. Fortunately an EMT was sitting next to me who's trip was of a different venue. I wake her up and we start treating this girl. Now in response to this equipment that send VS to medical personnel so that a diagnosis can be made and treatment based on those VS. First of all.. you NEVER treat the machine ( BP cuff, AED, PC02 oximetry etc) you treat the patient. Breath sounds ? why do you need to identify specific breath sounds ?? In this situation, the only thing you need to know is whether they are present or not, and is there equal rise/fall of the chest ? That is all part of what we call a general assessment of a patient. You need to note color of skin, are they blue ? then you have an airway problem.. they aren't profusing. if they are pink, good, they are profusing ( delivering oxygen to periperhals aka arms legs) Depicting certain breath sounds can only be done by an advanced care medical provider and certain breath sounds can determine your emergency but without advanced care ( diabetics with kussmal respirations or asthmatics with wheezing which both require meds and advanced breathing treatments) you can't fix them if you dont have the right training or equipment. Ok so you have a patient who presents with a blood pressure of 80/60.. What now ? the machine is gonna tell you to do what ? First of all put the pt on 02.. Hey.. 02 has never killed anyone.. they should have already been placed on it.. BP is 180/100 ? machine gonna tell you to give them nitroglycerine ? OHHH you better find out if they have taken viagra first. Bottom line, there is NO machine or first responder that can take the place of a Paramedic and you can't do crap for someone with a respiratory problem or cardiac emergency with a bp cuff, 02 or even an AED in most cases aka about 99% without cardiac meds. If you have a Paramedic on board, that person is trained and licensed to deliver that care and now you can do great things without having to land the a/c ( with the exception of a full arrest and less than 5% survive one if they make it to the hospital within minutes. I'll take death any day over surviving a full arrest only to become a vegetable the rest of my life. Guys.. comparing CC to Paramedic is like comparing a Captain to a graduate of flight school. Same thing with a CC being a firefighter! They aren't fully trained to know what to use in which type of fire and if they do.. they are going to have no less than 100 pax freaking out and then guess what, the problem becomes too overwhelming. Why not offer volunteer paramedic positions in lieu of flight benefits ? Was it Lufthansa started talking about doctor's being offered this in lieu of air miles ? I would do it in a heart beat! I'm a UAL retiree's daughter who is married to a freight dog with no family flight benefits. I would volunteer a few hours a month in lieu of free travel and I know alot of other Paramedic / Firefighters who would as well. I also have years of experience in not only flying as a pax but I have worked for Fed Ex and Pinnacle and I know ramp operations as a ramp rat ( took the job for the flight benefits on my days off from the FD) Especially when we're doing this job for less than 50k a year. I would also offer 8 hour courses each month to CC and pilots for more advanced training which teaches them how to really assess and treat a patient in an aisle rather than a classroom where they have all the space in the world and 10 assitants at their fingertips. Sorry to have gotten off the beaten path of the thread but the simplest of things are prevented thanks to bean counters, deregulation and profit mongers . My heart and mind are still with Dawn and Matt's family as well as Dougs. I thank God every day my FO arrives home safely as he flies dangerous goods all the time. Stay safe guys..
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Old 10th Sep 2010, 17:00
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Think alternate result for FedEx 705 (the FedEx suicide jumpseater) if without an airplane saving third crewmember. . . . All that's basically required of a third crewmember is the will to live.

FedEx Flight 705 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 10th Sep 2010, 17:42
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...this can easily blind designers...
Sad to see such a pedantic misrepresentation of an amazingly thorough process undertaken by large numbers of highly accomplished minds who work feverishly to provide every contingency possible.
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Old 10th Sep 2010, 18:13
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Morning pride uniform


You are spot on in regards to the need for overhaul etc. My reasons again for not allowing CC to be your Paramedic NOR FF. They can't sit and babysit the scene until the a/c lands. But can you train an FE or jump seating pilot to be the FF in command in the a/c at time ? What if you want to dump the cabin ? Will depressurization put out all fires ? But can a FF survive even with SCBA or MSA in that event ? No. Can AFFF polar solvents work inflight? I know that is more fuel related. What about organic solvents ? They work against corrosion ie.. laurel alcohol. I am not certified in AC FF so i just wonder if a FF is put on board, what is the best recourse ? At least they would be the eyes in the cabin and the professional to handle such emergencies as the crew are there trying to do what is the most important function in an emergency, get the a/c on the ground. I am sure you agree that there are alot of FF's and PM's that would be on " watch" in lieu of free travel for volunteering 8 hours or 16 hours a month.
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Old 10th Sep 2010, 18:55
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Is there any chance that you could format your postings a little.

I'm sure that you have lots of good stuff to say, but when it is posted as a single block as above, it becomes almost unreadable, at least to me.

Try paragraphs, thanks
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Old 10th Sep 2010, 20:17
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In her defense, depending on the computer I use here and there, all my nicely formatted, punctuated, posts get run together into a continuous mash-up, too.
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Old 10th Sep 2010, 21:25
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Well said!! I agree 100% in what you wrote. I was in aviation for 27 years and a PFE for 23 years starting on the DC-6, and up thru most all 3 and 4 holers requireing an FE. I have been in one accident where a total hydraulic failure kept all 3 of us busy right up to the crash. I can't imagine what could have happened if it were only two crewmembers. Ive had to leave my seat for fire, loose animals, leaking chemicals, open cargo door and several other potentialy life threatening situations. I'm not saying that a third crewmember could have saved this unfortunate accident from happening but I do believe that taking out the third seat on big jets was a big mistake. One word you said "Workload" say's it all. When the sh*t hit's the fan and then it becomes multiple failures the workload becomes excessive and with one pilot flying the airplane and the other working with the FE it can very quickly become overwhelming for all. We see this in the Sim during re-current and initial training all the time. Complacency is also our worst enemy.

My Sincere condolences go out to these two Pilots and there families.
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