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Qantas Emergency Return KSFO, Explosion in Engine?

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Qantas Emergency Return KSFO, Explosion in Engine?

Old 2nd Sep 2010, 03:10
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This might be a little unpopular, but I'm not so worried about strictly-incorrect but perhaps still informative news reporting.

Some of us are experts here and know whether to use an "explosion" and an "uncontained" failure. But the general public doesn't, and the journalists have to write for the public.

In other fields, would you describe something as a "heart attack" or a "myocardial infarction"? A "court restraining order" or an "estoppel"?

I wouldn't mind so much if the terminology-specialists posted comments in the journalist's own publications (but then they might get flamed by the readers of those publications...). There's no real need to go on and on about their terminology here, when they probably never read this anyway...
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Old 2nd Sep 2010, 03:20
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Charlie Charlie

http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/176...e-charlie.html
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Old 2nd Sep 2010, 03:21
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Audio from QF74 to Air traffic Control

The cockpit audio of this emergency.

Well done crew!

Video - Cockpit audio as QF74 handles engine failure - The Sydney Morning Herald
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Old 2nd Sep 2010, 03:38
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Barit1,

to be honest I'm with you, in that anything that can puncture/damage the fuselage should really be an considered as an un-contained failure. The definition I mentioned about 'high-energy' debris is generally trotted out by OEM's and is buried somewhere in FAA/EASA speak...

Best Regards,

N1 Vibes
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Old 2nd Sep 2010, 03:39
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Spark stream probably from the remaining blades contacting the damaged casing of the engine. I don't remember any latter-stage uncontained failures - any other examples?

Man I sure hope the excitement from all these incidents calms down soon!

-drl
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Old 2nd Sep 2010, 04:04
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Sparks were definitely caused from the blades letting go and causing bending of the other blades rear of the initial damage. The blades then rub against the casing causing the sparks. It also appears from the image that the disc has failed big time and you can see its on a angle. I suspect that there was a disc failure which caused the large hole in the side of the engine. It is very lucky that it departed in that area and also I am wondering if there was enough velocity for the wing to be impacted? Has happened before. Its also interesting the amount of cra* that people talk on here.
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Old 2nd Sep 2010, 05:51
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>"Sparks were definitely caused from the blades letting go and causing bending of the other blades rear of the initial damage. The blades then rub against the casing causing the sparks."

The sparks continued for some time, surely they shut the engine down more promptly than that ?
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Old 2nd Sep 2010, 06:20
  #68 (permalink)  

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Shutting the engine down won't necessarily stop the internal rotation. There'd be a lot of air passing through what was left of the core.
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Old 2nd Sep 2010, 06:43
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Ford Tranist, Capt Claret,

see these photos of the LPT area:

Flickr: sb_sfo's Photostream

You will see that all of the blades have come off the rotor and are now lying in the rear of the engine. Perhaps if it is the IPT disc that came out (or part of the disc) the enormous imbalance as the disc came out, could have cause the LPT to run very eccentrically, forcing the blades to distort and impact themselves and the LPT stator vanes.

In fact one photograph shows blades mising right through to the HPT NGV's, meaning LPT 1,2,3 and IPT blades are gone. Considering this is a large amount of metal and the fan at the front of the engine was windmilling merrily, as the a/c still had significant fwd speed, this would be why the sparks didn't stop for some time.

This is of course pure supposition and rumour...

Best Regards,

N1 Vibes
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Old 2nd Sep 2010, 10:57
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The Australian Transport Safety Bureau has stated there was flap damage to the aircraft caused by ejected material.

MEDIA RELEASE : 02 September 2010 - ATSB examines damaged plane in San Francisco

Rob
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Old 2nd Sep 2010, 11:04
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Authorities begin Qantas jet examination | News.com.au
Two investigators from the Australian Transport Safety Bureau today arrived in San Francisco to begin their investigation into the August 30 incident.
The ATSB investigators are expected to remain in San Francisco over the next few days to examine the engine and components and work with the operator and crew to determine the cause of the incident.

The engine will then be shipped to maintenance facilities in Hong Kong where it will be further examined by ATSB's technical investigators.

I don't understand, can't it be done / examined by the ATSB in Australia? Seems rather odd to me as QF have been using RR equipment since the B742 days.
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Old 2nd Sep 2010, 11:25
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Triebwerksexplosion - iptv.ORF.at

anothe stream if PAX video....
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Old 2nd Sep 2010, 15:13
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TIMA9X,
Maybe because a couple of weeks on expenses in Hong Kong is much more fun than Sydney.
Seriously, does QF still do RR overhauls in Sydney any longer??, or has it been offshored ??
Tootle pip!!
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Old 2nd Sep 2010, 15:15
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Doesn't look like a disk failure (in the still photo sequence). Looks like an interstage non-rotating part came loose and tangled with the blades. The tangling probably drove the part through the case letting some blades out along the way.

The engine compression system and turbines could have kept the engine running above idle, hence the sparks until shutdown.

Nothing out of the ordinary relative to the time frame for shutdown

back to the overhaul shop to look at assembly details etc.
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Old 2nd Sep 2010, 15:53
  #75 (permalink)  

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Snoop

Looks like an interstage non-rotating part came loose and tangled with the blades
Funny you should say that the RB211 does on the odd occasion have a segment of NGV migrate onto the first stage LPT. Shows up as rub marks on the blade platforms sometimes contacting the blade root radius. Allowable in the AMM for 20 landings!
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Old 2nd Sep 2010, 16:23
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Allowable in the AMM for 20 landings!
after detection I presume.

So how is it first detected as an abnormality?
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Old 2nd Sep 2010, 16:48
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Seems like a very calm and professional cockpit crew. Classic and for me somehow very british the last sentence of the clip "Ground, please pass to the emergency crews that we are much obliged for their trouble". So you are sitting there, probably sweaty hands, nervous at least a bit I guess as you have a still sparking engine back there - and they send their apologies to the emergency services. Wow, they have my full respect! Compare that with the recentAA exchange with ATC at JFK...
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Old 2nd Sep 2010, 17:54
  #78 (permalink)  

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Snoop

So how is it first detected as an abnormality?
It would only be picked up if a borescope was being done for.
a). Routine
b). If looking at something else.
The 20 landings limit is in place to plan the engine change. (for rub into the fillet radius I should add!)
IF the damage was caused by NGV's letting go. I think the manual might change
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Old 2nd Sep 2010, 18:40
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IF the damage was caused by NGV's letting go. I think the manual might change
From the photos, what appears to be a straight line fracture through a rivet hole and subsequent chaffing on the surface may be a clue
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Old 2nd Sep 2010, 21:33
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Lomopaseo and Gaspath,

have a look at this picture:

DSCF0020 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

You will see a green and white wire. This is the EGT thermocouple harness, the EGT probes are located at the IP turbine station on the RB211. You will also note the turbine casing has opened like a sardine tin lid. Turbine stator vane or blade material is never going to have enough energy to do that.

As for shipping the engine to HKG, RR have an engine facility here, HAESL, which in a sense is more easy for them to do the work. Because CX aren't doing any major work on their RB211's at the moment, the shop is 'twiddling it's thumb's'. Also geographically closer to Oz than Derby.

Plus a little californian bird tells me that it was indeed the IP turbine that let go. But after all this is only a rumour.

Best Regards,

N1 Vibes
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