Monarch-Engine fire Birmingham UK

[Serenity]

Never mind the petty arguing on here.....

Engine on fire for all pax and crew to see....

Well done to the monarch guys and gals, good job well done, it's one of the worst case senarios we all train for and hope not to see every 6 months!
All credit to the crew !!!!

[fokker1000]

Most eloquently put BB. I never cease to be amazed by some of the dimbo posts here..
Crew had a pretty major problem and dealt with it professionally Well done Monarch!

[buzz boy]

Is this not the second engine fire / failure recently on a UK registered aircraft? I believe Jet2 had a problem with one of their 757s on take off in the canaries, sounded very similar.

[teamilk&sugar]

Having any codewords that are designed to be used over the PA in the event of a mishap is a pretty poor idea.

Already the pax are aware something is wrong but likely don't understand exactly what... add to that an announcement over the PA they don't understand and it's guaranteed to put the fear of Christ up them - It's not rocket science.

...Time for an SOP review Monarch!

I get really tired of comments like this from ill-informed, probably armchair wannabee pilots. If you have no idea what you are talking about - please don't bother posting!

It's amazing how certain individuals seems to think they know better than established airlines (not just Monarch) who use phrases like this, for exactly the reason why Bealzebub has explained so well.


Nicely handled by the crew.

Well done!

[lomapaseo]

teamilk&suger

I get really tired of comments like this from ill-informed, probably armchair wannabee pilots. If you have no idea what you are talking about - please don't bother posting!

It's amazing how certain individuals seems to think they know better than established airlines

How about addressing the issue rather than the poster. It strikes me that they have a valid experienced based opinion, although I don't necessarily agree with it.

I do appreciate the pros and cons I read in the majority of posts on this thread.

[Otto Throttle]

Hmmm, next time I have an incident, perhaps I too shall request the CA1 to bring me a cold Cobra. I think it is an excellent idea and should be SOP for all.

Cheers!

[Ace Beer Charlie]

I can see the point of short code phrases being useful to communicate to all staff that they need to instigate certain actions but unless they have an innocuous meaning to passengers they are bound to cause panic to passengers with a resultant risk of panic, stress and associated unpredictable behaviour.

Surely the senior cabin crew would already be on their way to the flight deck having heard the loud bangs and been alerted by the passengers reaction to the sheets of flame!

I think any ordinary passenger would find the use of blatant code words rather disconcerting and would be worried about what they are hiding. I also think that any codes involving types of snake or any other colour apart from green are probably only suitable for military use, although to be fair it has been pointed out that the actual code word was 'apparently' misheard. Perhaps the passenger had seen the film 'Snakes on a Plane' !

[Bealzebub]

I can see the point of short code phrases being useful to communicate to all staff that they need to instigate certain actions but unless they have an innocuous meaning to passengers they are bound to cause panic to passengers with a resultant risk of panic, stress and associated unpredictable behaviour.

A well handled emergency such as this one involves many phases. There is often a "critical " phase where the problem first manifests itself. Once that phase has been resolved, it doesn't mean the emergency has ended. For example an engine fire that results in an engine shutdown still results in the aircraft operting in a performance limited envelope with all (in the case of a twin engined airliner) of the redundancy capability utilized. That would necessitate a diversion to the departure airport, or another nearby airport. It can also happen that secondary effects of the primary emergency are not immediately apparant.

It is conceivable that in some situations it may be necessary to evacuate everybody on board shortly after landing. As such, a bit of "panic and stress" is no bad thing, in that it should raise adrenelin levels. Perhaps they will be raised to the level that a few people who thought it was unnecessary to read the safety card, will now have less qualms about reading it. In any event the cabin crew will carry out the requisite procedures in accordance with their own training and in accordance with the situation as it manifests itself.

Surely the senior cabin crew would already be on their way to the flight deck having heard the loud bangs and been alerted by the passengers reaction to the sheets of flame!

No, they react to the communication that has already been given as is appropriate to the situation.

I think any ordinary passenger would find the use of blatant code words rather disconcerting and would be worried about what they are hiding.

They might, but as already pointed out, they are not "hiding" anything, and in the example you have given I would imagine the "loud bangs & sheets of flame" might worry them a little bit as well. I am sure they would cause more than a little consternation to the crew come to that. The procedures for resolving these rare situations are what everybody is trained for, and it is of primary importance that this training is utilized with communication procedures that have been established for the purpose, without any other non essential concerns at that point.

[PA-28-180]

Having also worked the medical side of the street....what's the difference between this and "code blue, code blue, 304" in a hospital?? Note: 'code blue' refers to the patient in room 304 has gone into cardiac / respiratory arrest...at least in the States.
This code means that the nurses / doctors / residents / other specialists on duty or on call haul @ss to room 304, and what to expect when they arrive there.

[Magplug]

@teamilk&sugar

....I gave up being a passenger about 16,000 hours ago old chap.

No criticism about the handling of the fire/surge/whatever, I am sure they did a fine job.

If your comprehension of what makes passengers scared is so incomplete as to not understand the issue about codewords then the point is completely lost on you. Just don't moan when you see more headlines like the one at the top of the thread.

[SLFguy]

"am I alone in thinking that prospective PAX should be screened before boarding to weed out the panic ridden, the nervous and the just plain stupid. - A screaming/jumping panic ridden PAX is a bigger threat in a cabin than a contained engine malfunction."

Yeah - because Shirley from accounts has a vast knowledge of aviation - in fact she probably turned to Kevin from purchasing and said

"Meh! Compressor stall - can I borrow your magazine Kev?"




Cool - I appear to have responded to a post made 38 minutes later.

[Carjockey]

CATIII-NDB: As for the BBC report if true, am I alone in thinking that prospective PAX should be screened before boarding to weed out the panic ridden, the nervous and the just plain stupid. - A screaming/jumping panic ridden PAX is a bigger threat in a cabin than a contained engine malfunction. Yes I would be frightenerd like everyone else but the Screaming Ab Dabs no chance. Not even if there were snakes on the plane.The screaming/panic ridden soul is a self obsessed individual with no comprehension for the effect of their behaviour on others. Is there a case for public education for (very rare) situations like this.

"

Oh what a hero you are sir! Perhaps you should consider that all PAX (excepting those harbouring immediate suicidal/homicidal intentions) board their flight with the expectation that they will arrive at their destinations safely and in one piece.

The majority of PAX have little technical understanding of aviation, and even if they did, an in-flight engine failure of their aircraft will definitely scare even the most hardened traveller sh**tless.

PAX have no choice other than to rely on the training and experience of the flight crew to handle such situations, and in this case things turned out well, so congrats to the flight crew.

I guarantee that most PAX on this flight will have made a beeline for the nearest bar and/or the lavatories once safely disembarked.

Many of them will not quickly (if ever) forget such an experience.

Flight and cabin crews should remind themselves that, unlike them, the majority of PAX do not routinely launch themselves into space two or three times a day.

In-flight, the safety and lives of PAX rests entirely in the hands of the flight crew.

PAX have become increasingly aware that air travel carries real risks and are therefore (understandably) somewhat more nervous about the whole flying experience than the flight and cabin crew.

CJ.

[Dawdler]

Yes, but you are rather missing the point.

Bealzebub: Quite how you drew that conclusion I am at a loss to know!

I was supporting the use of codes to indicate that certain actions should be taken/prepared for without setting the public on the alert until it is necessary/desirable to do so.

My illustration was (as was indicated) for a large public building which many contain upwards of 30,000 people. I was not advocating this phrase for use in the particular case being discussed, merely that forms of word do exist and are in routine use that achieve the desired effect, i.e. initiate action without unneccessary alarm.

[bedsted]

Magplug:

Your public info: FS pilots are welcome to read and ask questions but keep your theories to yourself’
But you say ‘...Time for an SOP review Monarch!’
I suggest that you practice what you preach.

Well said Teamilk&sugar.
Well done Monarch

[teamilk&sugar]

@Magplug

....I gave up being a passenger about 16,000 hours ago old chap

If your comprehension of what makes passengers scared is so incomplete as to not understand the issue about codewords then the point is completely lost on you. Just don't moan when you see more headlines like the one at the top of the thread.

No - of course "old chap" you are absolutely right. My comprehension is totally incomplete about this and having used such codes on occasion myself on the line, seeing how effective they can be; not to mention my time sat in the back of a simulator assessing other crews use these tools counts for absolutely nothing. I'm sorry. How presumptuous of me.

What they should have done was not said anything at all to the crew, because giving them a full briefing of the event whilst trying to deal with a heavy (over max landing weight) aircraft whilst performing all the necessary actions to run an ECAM drill for an engine fire and the subsequent diversion to an airfield would have obviously only taken moments to complete. The cabin crew, throughout this period of time, would have obviously assumed that everything was OK, and that the problem was being dealt with by the guys up the front, because...well..they would just KNOW...wouldn't they?

They could have then gathered all the crew together (without using the PA of course, as this may distress the passengers somehow), and explain what was happening - tell them to secure the cabin and prepare for the landing.

Easy.

Yup, your way works much better. How stupid of Monarch to not have even thought of that. Thanks for pointing out the idea.
I'm sure, as you say, that Monarch will change their Company SOP's immediately.

I give up.

[Spendid Cruiser]

[quote]It is perfectly possible for emergency codes to be used[quote]
Sounds like nonsense to me. We have trigger announcement that tells the passengers to sit down and do as they are told. The CC know what to do in response. As for all potential emergency situations.

Code Cobra indeed

[teamilk&sugar]

For clarification:

"Code Cobra" - was not ever used and is not relevant to the discussion.

[merlinxx]

What the heck is wrong with some of you folks ? A situation happened, it was handled, what right do you have to question a crew acting within the proscribed company SOPs ? Go play with your FltSim

[AerocatS2A]

On the subject of code words. There may be times when they are appropriate but they carry the risk of significant misunderstanding. In a time of relative stress the pilot must ensure they've used the correct code word and the flight attendant must decode it correctly. There's a reasonable chance that something's going to go wrong along the way. Sometimes it might be better to just say "cabin manager to the flight deck now please" with the word "now" denoting the immediacy of the situation (if not already obvious.)

[AerocatS2A]

What the heck is wrong with some of you folks ? A situation happened, it was handled, what right do you have to question a crew acting within the proscribed company SOPs ? Go play with your FltSim

Dude, it's a discussion about the appropriateness of the procedure, not bagging the crew for using it. If there's a procedure then the crew should use it, but is it a good procedure? And just because lots of companies do something doesn't necessarily make it good.